DGBass

Rig of choice this weekend was a little old school, well more than usual. It's such a reassuring feeling having a wall of unstoppable power behind you. No power sag or lag, no auto compression kicking in when you dig in hard, and no running out of steam. Ever. Sounded great and not too shabby a performance for a 37 year old 250watt amplifier and a 43 year old cab. The P-Bass was on its first outing and I have to admit, the satin finish maple player neck was sublime. Very smooth, very slim profile, stayed in tune and has a fast low rattle free action. Very impressed. The bass also weighs nearly a full kg lighter than my USA Standard. Only thing I did notice was that the player pickup while not lacking in output seems more aggressive in the low-mid/mid department and is defintely not as smooth and rounded as its USA Standard counterpart. That's something i'll look into when time allows. All in a very enjoyable backline and the standby LMIII still hasn't had any gig time.

Some handy info in those early TE sales brochures, especially about features and specs of the older models. Thanks for posting @Sparky Mark👍

Jezz, if its your Ashdown MAG you are trying to do this with into a powered sub, there is likely two ways to do it.

1. Take a standard guitar lead and connect it to the tuner/line out on the amp and on the sub find the unbalanced line in socket( if it has one). Turn the levels right down while doing this then gradually increase the levels both ends. The tuner/line out is a fairly hot signal so don't over do the pre-amp volume or it might clip/distort the subs input. Gradually increase until you get the required levels from the sub.

2. The DI out on MAG's are as follows:  600 Ohms balanced, level -20dBu nominal. You need a balanced XLR cable to do this and plug it into the Mag then find the DI INPUT on the sub. Dont use an unbalanced XLR cable.  It might even say on the sub whether it takes balanced or unbalanced. On your MAG the DI is POST pre-amp so is affected by the input volume and tone controls on the amp. Again turn the levels up both ends gradually until you detect output from the sub. Most subs will have the input socket labelled 'input balanced' or 'input unbalanced'.

Two classic p-bass finishes from the late seventies I've always admired were the black/black/maple(JJ Burnel) and the black/white/maple (Dee Dee Ramone). I don't usually mess with standard options on basses however a chance came up to do so recently and I decided to indulge my inner Dee Dee Ramone. Lots of folks go for black/black/maple Precisions but not so much the black/white/maple option. It's even less likely to come up on a leftie. I won't moan about lefties not having the same choice of P-bass finishes as righties ( we dont! 😁) so doing one for myself was fun. Saying that I really like the end result and haven't seen another leftie like it. It's all bog standard Fender MIM and plays as well as any P i've ever played. 

There was a time back in the day(20+ years ago) when it was mandatory to wear a head covering of some sort in my stoner rock band. Black woolly hats or skip caps were acceptable. Almost a hat I suppose. These days head coverings are purely functional to stop brain freeze 😁 No pic the hat didnt happen? I suppose so. The bass hasn't aged at all, everything else has. On another note, I was always impressed by Roger Glover's hat collection. He's the only bassist I can recall who got away with wearing a straw trilby in both Rainbow and Deep Purple. Nice.

Very solid bass amps, i've owned a GP7 and GP11 versions. If you get a chance to try it out, there are a couple of things to look out for which are mostly due to age/use. These are fan cooled and have a high quality metal 110v cooling fan. If the fan makes any clattering noise when its on, the bearings could be on the way out and replacements aren't easy to source these days. The amp also has surge protectors fitted across the mains switch, thease can wear out over time and normally there should be a quiet 'pop' when the amp is turned on heard through a speaker. If you get an almighty bang then the the surge protectors probably need replaced. Thats not difficult or expensive. Last thing i'd mention is the ECI ( earth continuity indicator ) light on the front panel of GP11's. As far as i know this was originally intended as a safety feature to let you know if you were plugged into mains supply with a bad ground. It should stay on if that was the case. In normal use it should flash briefly then go out. The ECI circuit can be a bit temperamental on these old amps and come on intermittently even if there is no earth fault. If the ECI stays on after power on, and its not a bad ground you can also get a fairly obvious clicking sound through the speakers that doesnt go away and the red light blinks. I've never come across an MKIII or a MKIV TE before and the GP7 and GP11 of this era i've owned matched the schematics for MK2 amps. That would put them in the early 80's age wise, perhaps 83-84 which is fast approaching a forty year old amp.  

21 minutes ago, W1_Pro said:

I used to have one of those Musicman boxes. Wonderful device. 

 

I've owned two of these over the years. First one was given to me for free by a retired player back in the late eighties/early nineties and was gigged for over a decade until I sold it on. The second current one in the pic was also donated by an old guitarist aquaintance of mine who rescued it from a skip around 2013. It was fully restored a year later and been my go-to cab since.  Just makes a wonderful deep bass sound and currently at 23kg its not bad considering its size. The originals were 75 watt 8 ohm cabs ( RH115-75) and this one is pimped slightly with an 18mm baffle instead of the original thin fenderish spec 12mm one, a modern high performance 400 watt Neo driver and combi speakons to bring it up to date. I would agree, wonderful and fairly scarce devices these days with plenty life in them yet. 

More a functional pimp rather than anything cosmetic. Changed the original string through only late 90s Fender bridge to a 2010 Fender Deluxe P-Bass version. Same base plate size so no real change to the visual aspect except that I can top load strings which is my preffered way to fit flats.

and...purely cosmetic scratchplate change from white to black on my DeeDee project Precision bass.

1 hour ago, Sparky Mark said:

This is how a GK MB500 Bass Gear Magazine lab test viewed the noon settings and where the EQ controls can be set to achieve an optimally flat signal. 

Very interesting. Just tried this setting on my Backline 600. It does sound almost the same as bypassing the preamp completely by plugging straight into the return. Thats probably as flat as it can get. The return maybe has a little less lo-mid? Just curious now what sort of playing situation you would need an optimally flat voicing for? 

I use a P-Bass and a Jazz bass, both USA models which weigh around just under 4kg each and been playing the p-bass for twenty five years and the Jazz for ten years. It would be fair to say they've both worn me down/ moulded me into the shape I am now. After a three hour show its not uncomfortable around the neck so much anymore as in my fingers and elbow joints. Playing gigs in moderation was a good idea initially but I found not playing as much was just as bad as I got out of condition. I use those squeezy foam balls as often as possible to keep my hands and fingers moving. There are days where i'll quite happily lug a Trace Elliot AH250 and a big cab to a gig only to wish I'd brought the Markbass when my joints start to complain.

As for home practising, I spend time everyday without fail playing to keep my joints moving and i've also recently picked up a used MIM p-bass that weighs just 2.9kg to experiment with. A kg may not sound much of a difference but i have noticed the benfit of a lighter bass. I'll give it a try next gig to see if my American Standard stoop improves🙂 

On 08/01/2023 at 21:44, Sparky Mark said:

The Legacy series uses the same  EQ frequency points as all the GK heads I can find user manuals for going back many years.

 

Yes I would agree with this. RB heads and even as far back as Backline amps appear to use these same voicings. I have one of the very old orange and grey air cooled Backline 250's and a more modern Backline 600 which is as near to an RB400/700 as you can get. With all controls at noon on these amps I wouldn't say it was an optimally flat voicing but it is a very pleasing sound to my ears. I think GK have a consistent default voicing across their amp models and over a period of time thats when folks start on about a GK Sound. I can't think of any pre-amp from any manufacturer i've played through that i'd ever considered being a flat voicing with all knobs at noon. Pre-amp controls are there to be twiddled with to create your sound in my book. That being said, I do like all knobs at noon on my GK's and all the main fun is usually to be had using the contour knob and that wonderful GK boost knob/feature. If I were to change any settings from noon, I would boost the bass to 2 o'clock, cut the lo-mid to 11 o'clock and leave Hi-mid at noon and treble cut at 11 o'clock. Contour @ 2 o'clock and boost at 9 or 10 o'clock. 🙂  Those may be optimal voicings for me but I don't think I could say they were optimally flat for a GK if there is such a thing.

12 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You don't say how you did your listening tests; if you have two cabs for example so the test was done quickly or of you simple removed the driver but kept the amp settings the same. The latter would of course mean you were testing the 4ohm speaker with twice the power.

Just the same one cab i've been using for the last nine years (a circa 1980 Musicman RH115-75) which has had the driver swapped from 4 to 8 ohms depending on which amp I choose to use with it.  I couldn't say that testing was scientific in any way. It was more down to percieved change in loudness and feel from being very familiar with the setup and playing regular venues where I know how it should sound. It may even be down to how much my trousers were flapping 😉 at 4 ohms (a lot) and 8 ohms (not so much) respectively with the same amp volume. I tend to leave a particular amp i'm using always at the same settings whether rehearshal or gig to a sweet spot where everyone in the band is happy with levels and its loud enough for a gig. I think thats when I first noticed the 4 ohm cab seemed to squeeze that little bit more from a given amplifier at a given volume.

BFM mentioned that turning up the master a bit would also likely level the difference between a 4 and 8 ohm cab. That does seem to work in practice and might be the difference between the master at 10 o'clock or 2 o'clock for me. I suspect the op was originally wondering if there was a way to get as much benefit from his amps rating without the need for an extra cab or perhaps his master was already way up (and maybe dimed ?).  An extra 3db from a 4 ohm speaker might just be enough.

It's a valid question when so many people buy large powerful amps with ratings mostly always quoted at 4 ohms but the amp ends up always being used with an 8 ohm cab and maybe turned up much more to achieve an end result. It's like considering buying an 800 watt amp to go with your 400 watt 8 ohm cab these days and realising after a few gigs you still need a second cab to get the full benefit of any available headroom. All great for new amp and cab sales at the end of the day.

One other benefit i've had with a 4 ohm cab is when using smaller amps like for example a TE AH200 GP12, or a TE AH250 GP11 i've used in the past. All worked really well for smaller venues and I could make good use of the extra 3db at 4 ohms without the need to bring a much larger amp.

The 8 ohm speaker is currently back in my cab as I have a newer bigger amp (600 watts) that would probably over stress a 4 ohm 15PR-400 after a few shows. If the new amp works out and my old MM cab doesn't shake apart, I may be using the 8 ohm version in future or until I can afford a much higher capacity 4 ohm driver and for the op's benefit that won't be cheap. It was all much simpler when I used Marshall Superbass amps, impedance matching gave me a selector on the back panel and I always got 100 watts whether it was 4, 8 or 16 ohms and it always seemed loud enough.

Thanks both, all makes sense and if you are interested in the speaker i've used over the past few years to make 4 ohm and 8 ohm comparisons, its a Faital Pro 15PR400 in the same cab with the same set of amps of varying power ratings. There are a few differences in specifications on the speaker vendor website between the 4 and 8 ohm versions but at the time I chose this driver it seemed a good fit and in practice it sounds good and has worked extremely well for me. I do hear and feel a difference using the 4 ohm version. It may actually be small in technical terms but it is noticeable and keeps me in one cab single speaker 4 ohm territory. My amps all work well at 4 ohms and I'm happy that a 4 ohm setup gives me an edge over an 8 ohm setup.

Thanks for that, if I can add one more scenario:  If I add an identical 8 ohm cab to the original 8 ohm cab, maintain the same given volume knob setting as in the first comparision and same sound source settings, what measure of loudness increase could I expect compared to the single 8 ohm cab and the single 4 ohm cab? And... will the amplifier in theory be supplying the same voltage and current to the paired 8 ohm cabs in parallel as it would have been with the single 4 ohm driver at the same amplifier volume setting? Hope that makes sense.

Perhaps I could pose an example to the more knowledgeable forum users which does still bear a relation to the op's original question about essentailly squeezing more out of his setup by having a 4 ohm load. If I have an amplifier that the manufacturer says will deliver 500w into a 4 ohm load by design, and have two identical speaker cabs each loaded with single 15 inch drivers of a suitable power rating from the same manufacturer, same driver model, with same power rating and manufacturers sensitivity rating, and one is a 4 ohm version and one is an 8 ohm version. For a given identical output setting on the amplifier when used with either speaker cabinet using an identical sound source, should there be any expected difference in loudness between the 4 ohm setup or the 8 ohm setup?

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

It will, but it has nothing to do with power, everything to do with voltage. The amp puts out the same voltage into any load. (A good thing that is, because the actual impedance isn't a constant, it varies with frequency, so if this wasn't the case every frequency would be at a different level.) If all else other than impedance is equal, which it never is, with the same voltage applied the cone of the 4 ohm driver will move further than the cone of the 8 ohm driver. This results in a 3dB increase in output. There can be tone differences as well, because all else isn't equal, including but not limited to inductance and moving mass. As for the perceived increase in dynamics at high levels, that's also voltage related. An amp's dynamic response suffers when it's pushed close to its voltage output limit. Using a lower impedance driver gives more voltage headroom from the amp, which gives better dynamic response. This begs the question 'why not always use low impedance drivers?'. The answer is that the lower the impedance the higher the current draw, which can create its own set of problems. 

I was really just saying that there was a noticeable real world difference with my setups when running into a 4 ohm cab and I thought that may be of interest to the OP if they ever decide to get another cab or maybe even a single higher powered 4 ohm cab. I've been lucky enough to try about a dozen different amps mostly class AB types into the same cab at 4 or 8 ohms at some point over the years and they all felt much more responsive with the 4 ohm cab option. I would agree all sorts of variables will come into play depending on how an amplifier is used whether its a 4 ohm or 8 ohm load. I haven't blown a driver or an amp fuse or smoked anything so far( in the last ten years at least) using single speaker 4 ohm cabs or 8 ohm cabs and I'm using the amps within the manufacturers ( claimed ) limits/ specs. So I'm assuming the setups i've used can handle any vairiables or additional stresses running at 4 ohms may introduce comfortably.

I've been down this road experimenting on a one cab solution with a 4 ohm and 8 ohm version of the same driver, in the same cab, with the same (class AB) amp and the same bass plugged in. It did in my experience make a noticeable difference running at 4 ohms and the amplifier sounded more dynamic and more responsive at high volume. Whether the full power of the amp was ever achieved at any point I'll never know. I was able to back off the master yet still achieve the same percieved loudness with the 4 ohm as I did with the 8 ohm speaker and amp working a bit harder. At 8 ohms it was plenty loud, at 4 ohms it sounded like there was just more headroom to help get a cleaner and deeper tone, especially down on an open e-string.

I did the same thing with a class D amp I have to compare and in that situation there was negligble difference. At 4 ohms and up loud, the class-d amp sounded compressed and actually seemed happier working with an 8 ohm cab. Both amps were rated around 500 watts @ 4 ohms by their manufacturers, both also quite capable of gig volume easily with a single 8 ohm cab. As has also been mentioned, finding good high power 4 ohm drivers is a very expensive option. So, basically there is no simple or cheap way to utilise a potential gain running a single 4 ohm cab with your amp.  A second cab is probably the cheapest option tbh.      

I think your pickup is a late 70s active EMG as I see the red battery wire on the CAC bar. These typically had the black epoxy resin backing. I have an early 80s one gathering dust in my parts bucket, it has the tan coloured epoxy backing. I know it was early 80s as I bought it in 1981 and it lived in a 1981 Ibanez Blazer 800 BS bass for twenty years until I sold the Ibanez with its original pickup. My EMG was always punchy, crisp and very clean. Always intended to refit it to a P-bass but my current USA Standard stock pickup does the job. I have most of the pickup parts except the original CTS pots. They were quite an unusual size at 25K if I recall.

Seeing Red is always a good warm up tune for finger playing or with a medium flexible plectrum if plectrums are your thing.

I've had a couple of instruments, guitars and basses with laurel and pao ferro fingerboards. I must admit I like the Laurel boards very much, the grain and colour is mostly very consistent and a darker shade than pao ferro. Saying that I had a Jazz with a really striking striped pao ferro grain which was quite fetching. My ears arent good enough to detect any tonal difference between them, perhaps pao ferro is a little brighter? The look of a board would swing whether I purchased an instrument or not. Thats the old chestnut of how it looks being almost as important as how it sounds.

Pao Ferro board on a Player

Laurel board on a Squire CV - this was a really nice example and as dark as my USA Fenders.  The board below is from a stratocaster. Can you tell by looking at it whether its rosewood, pao ferro or laurel?

I played a gig years ago (1999) where i'd badly hurt my right ankle to the point of not being able to stand. We had a gig booked to support swedish metal band Psycore ( who went on to become Swedens Finest ) at a well known Glagow rock / indie venue. Rather than cancel and/or miss the chance to meet them and get our copies of I'm not one of Us signed, my band mates collected me, lifted me into a car and drove me to the gig. Just before positioning me on stage they filled me up with pain killers, anti inflamatory's and fixed a splint to my right leg. I played an hour set rooted to the spot while swaying dangerously to the left on occasion and don't remember a great deal about it at all. I did meet Hansi Baumgartner in the backstage dressing rooms as ours and Psycore's were next door to each other. He let me use his rig which consisted of two Marshall DBS heads through a DBS 4x12 and a DBS 2x15. This the only photo I have of the gig that night and I don't look deleriously in pain or about to fall over, but I was.

Just back from a gig at a fairly local working men's club where the band were scheduled to play mid way through the evening between two other bands. Some short notice personnel issues meant we had to call in a dep drummer who I'd played with once before and knew was a solid player. That wasn't so bad. The vocalist was also a dep and none of us had jammed with him before or even met him. Totally unrehearsed and a set list exchanged by email was basically the only prep we did. The gig went well and all backline and PA was provided. I just showed with my Jazz, a strap, a clip on tuner and a lead. The provided backline was a Genz Benz Contour 500 2x10 with the matching Contour 1x15 extension cab. It was fairly loud but a bit dry sounding and I could hear it struggling ( the class-d cough I call it ) a little with the range of 60s, 70s and 80s rock and blues covers we played which need a lot of big heavy low end of the type my ABM can do with ease. The PA was fairly substantial and covered the out front bass well.

Someone came up to us at the end of the show and said they enjoyed the bands set and asked how long we'd all been together. Our dep singer piped up that he'd only just met us 15 mins before the show in the car park. Which was correct. Sandwiches and pork pies were supplied in abundance on the night for all courtesy of the working mens club. All in, a very enjoyable old school club gig considering half the usual band were deps, barely knew the set list and we all played with no previous rehearsal.

Might be worth sticking a meter across the pins at both ends on the the tank to make sure you get a reading from the springs/coils. Just in case the tank is actually broken and that is why the wires were disconnected in the first place. Those small IDC plugs ( usually made by Molex or AMP) are used commonly in tanks and can normally only be fitted one way around as they have a locking tab on the fitting. That being the case its usually possible to work out which wire goes where and solder them on. On one side green is the tip( signal) and black is the ground. On the other end red is the tip( signal ) and black is the ground.  The tip wires on tanks I've repaired or restored are usually at the top tag, screens on the bottom tag. Its only two wires, if you solder them on backwards, the reverb will hum like mad when is use. Easy enough to reverse them and retest. 

The other thing you could do is just replace the tank, most new ones are as good as the old ones for general use and Orange type 3-springs ones are available online at around £40-60 depending on what model. you need.  Look on the can chassis for a reverb identifier code( see photo) and that will tell you what model you need to match the way the amp reverb circuit is configured. I'm sure if you contacted Orange they would be able to help you, I hear they are really good with post sales tech support.

IDC connectors showing tip wires from the locking side of the connecter. ( this example is from a fender amp )

Tank identifier 8EB2C1B in this example will tell you the type of tank you need and what the spring impeadance is to match your amp.

I used a Fender Bandmaster VM cab for a while a few years back with a 72 Fender Bassman 50 and a Musicman HD150(on half power setting). The cab had Celestion 70/80 speakers when I bought it used and I replaced them with Vintage 30s. The cab looked great and actually paired well with the Bassman 50 and the Musicman. The cab wasn't braced anywhere internally and I always had the feeling around 50-75 watts was about as much as it could handle from a bass guitar before it began to resonate. The baffle on the VM cab is pretty lightweight as well so does vibrate a bit as the power increases. It actually sounded great at low to medium volume but was never really brilliant at loud volumes unless you like very overdriven Fender Bassman 50 tones and not much low end. I lined the VM with 3/4 inch Dacron foam which did help damp vibrations a bit. I did a show with it but it got lost in the mix with a loud drummer and one guitarist. The Musicman HD150 was better because it stayed clean right up to near max on half power setting and had a more flexible pre-amp. The amp did make a difference but at the end of the day The BM VM cab was great for low volume rehearshal and studio sound but not brilliant at a loud rock gig with bass. The reason I chose Vintage 30s for the BM VM was that I'd had very good results using them in an old Marshall Chequerboard 4x12 ( 240W @ 16ohms ) with the Marshall Superbass I used to use a long time ago. Very efficient and loud in the 4x12, and still efficient and reasonably loud in the Bandmaster VM.

Looked great on stage with the Fender badge swapped with an MM one as well. Sounded a lot better with the HD150 as well. 

A custom shop Ashdown ABM was my first thought for best music purchase of 2022 but there was something else I bought that just pipped it to the post for sheer value and because of how stunned I was at the variety of tones available and how good it sounds. It's also superbly built and £70 seemed to good to be true but I can't fault it in anyway so far.