I'm obviously doing something wrong, help please

[Tinman]

Thought I'd copy this lot across from basstalk as it seems to have some good info for the less experienced like myself.

Right, apologies if this is a dumb ass newbie topic but I'm having real problems.
Let's start with the gear I use: New Trace 1210 combo, Trace 1518 cab, Ibanez BTB550 and 555.
The problem I'm having is probably one that will make you say "the idiot, doesn't he know anything?" but it's very real to me. When the whole band is playing I can't hear myself, what am I doing wrong?
My settings are something like this: Guitar eq: bass-full, treble-full, volume-full, mid shift boosting high mids.
Amp settings: Trace contour thingy on, Eq on boosting 40KHz, 60KHz, 100KHz, 180KHz in a sweep with the 100KHz boosted the most. The high an low compressors (which I don't really understand-HELP!) are both on and set the same at around a quarter. I can't hear a bloody thing so I don't know if: A, I'm playing correctly or B, if anyone else can hear what I'm doing.
Please help expert type guys.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Tinman

[Tinman]

Yeah it's the 500W combo and the contour thingy is the pre-shape, I just couldn't remember the name of it, and when I wrote KHz I meant Hz, oops.Which means I'm boosting the lows not the highs, sorry, long gig last night

[Tinman]

[b]Paulmartin[/b]

The Equipment you have should be more than loud enough so something's going wrong somewhere.

When you say you are boosting 40,60,100 Khz I assume you mean Hz rather than Khz. Thats quite a lot of bass boost when combined with the pre-shape button which I assume gives a mid scooped sound. Mids are what cut through the mix and if you are boosting bass frequencies they will eat all your amp's power and just create boom and rumble.

Try setting everything flat and start from that point. That's what I would do.

[Tinman]

Thanks for that mate, it's just that I'm not that keen on high mids, I seem to get a clicky clanky sound when I boost them. I guess I'll take your advice and start from scratch, bloody frustrating tho.

PS What IS GAS??? ('nother dumb newbie question)

[Tinman]

[b]Paulmartin[/b]

Gear Acquisition Syndrome. Be very afraid. Cut up your credit cards

[Tinman]

In which case, I'm still suffering. Looking for new basses now I've got the amp that I want, can't decide, Warwick, Musicman, Overwater hmmmmmmm.........

[Tinman]

I'm not familiar with these Ibanez's (what's the plural for Ibanez ? Ibanii?), but I'm assuming they have active EQ ? There's usually a "click stop" at the halfway position of active tone controls. That's where the EQ is "flat" (i.e. no boost and no cut). It's often better to start from that position then add a little bass/treble or even CUT a little bass/treble to get the basic sound you want. Also, if you setup your bass with some travel left in the tone cotnrols (i.e not at max) then you can still add a little as you are playing , if you need to.

[b]Bod2[/b]


Also, try backing of the lowest bass control on the amp a little to see if that helps.

Another thing to remember is that sometimes the great sound you get from your gear while playing on your own isn't the best sound in the context of a band. Try tweaking the sound with the band at rehearshal.

Do you have a keyboards player ? If so then try to get him to control his left hand a keep the low parts free for you (better still tie his left hand behind his back).

It could also just be that everyone is too loud ! Playing in a band is about the overall sound not just hearing your own instrument. Try getting the others to back off a little and this might clearup the sound too.

[Tinman]

[b]bob weston[/b]


Hey Tinman,
I had this very problem a week or to ago with the new band Im in,and I have the 7 bnad version of the new Trace heads,so hopefully I can be of some relative use.
Basically,I did the same as these guys have mentioned - started with the EQ flat,except for the preshape button,thats stays on for me as it pronounces the right frequencies for me.I use a Ric 4003,so I dont have the option to shape the tone before it gets to my amp(but thats why I love the Ric sound),but I have to admit,Ive left the EQ flat as each time I boost something the balance of the strings goes out.Pus it sounds great now without needing to use it!
What has also helped,which the others have mentioned,is to get everyone(myself included)to turn down.That tends to clear the sound up,but I also got the guitarists to cut some of the bass out of their sound and that hepled immensly,and has made us sound all the more tighter for it.Of course,convincing them it was for the best wasnt so easy!They agreed with me by the end of the night though
I think both I and the guitarists had what BOD2 described,in that what we thought sounded great on our own,didnt neccessarily benefit the band in any way.You gotta make a compromise somewhere.
Otherwise,great to see some more people getting into the new Trace gear.Had mine nearly a year now and not looking back.Awesome!!
Andy

[Tinman]

[b]Musky[/b]

You're using a lot of lift on the bottom end there. If the problem is showing up in rehearsals it could well be because you can't get far enough from the speakers to get the full impact of the bass. If you're not boosting anything above 180 hz and using mid cut as well you're going to be losing the frequencies that can give a bit of definition to your sound. You should be able to lift the centre of the mid range safely with worrying about any clankyness.

[Tinman]

[b]Waldo[/b]

That sounds incredibly strange......a trace 2x10 *and* a 1x15 and you can't hear yourself?!

All i can say is 'WTF?'

[Tinman]

[b]PaulMartin[/b]

So what kind of music are you playing? What is the line up of your band? If you are playing with two guitarists who play too loud (which is all guitarists) it may explain why you're having problems. As Chris_714 says, WTF indeed.

[Tinman]

[b]bob weston[/b]

By the way Tinman,the two band compressor you have is my only complaint of the 7 band,in that the 7 band should have had the same configuration for compression.
As I understand it,it allows you to compress the high and low frequencies independently of each other,therefore allowing much greater control over dynamics.The crossover is set internally so not much you can do about that,but from what I know of the old Trace heads with same compressor,and also the dual band pedal compressor they have now sadly stopped making,they were pretty spot on.
Its up to you to determine how much compression to apply to each band,but generally I think you'll want more on the bass side than the treble(someone else can probably explain why better than me!).The two bands need differing settings for EQ which is why there are two.
The 7 band compressor which is full range is an example why.They have set it to come in far to early and so pumps because one set of frequencies sets it off and so the whole sound just dips before coming back to full volume.
Then again,maybe I still havent learnt how to use it properly,but I read a review in some magazine that they found the same.
Apologies for the long post,but I hope some of that is clear.Im sure someone else can do a more concise and exact explanation.
Andy

[Steve_K]

Could simply be that you're too close to your amp to hear it properly.
For bass anyway, this seems to be true - The worst place you can stand is right infront of your amp - I've been told to turn down in our 30ish piece "Jazz Band" because I'm drowning everything out, when I can barely hear myself.

Get a long lead and wander around

[Tinman]

Thanks for the replies guys, keep them coming (I need all the help I can get)

QUOTE(BOD2)
I'm not familiar with these Ibanez's
They have an 18 volt eq: Bass, Treble and mid shift (frequency and amount), they're versatile, nice to play and reasonably priced, I'll get myself something a bit special in the future but for now they'll do.


QUOTE
So what kind of music are you playing? What is the line up of your band?
Standard 2 guitarist line-up with no keyboards playing anything from Snow Patrol to Green Day, the guitarists don't seem to be playing to loud however I have a feeling that the guy I stand next to has dialled in a fairly large amount of bass so that could be the problem if I've boosted the same frequencies.


QUOTE
That sounds incredibly strange......a trace 2x10 *and* a 1x15 and you can't hear yourself?!
All i can say is 'WTF?'
WTF is right mate!! All I can say is I must be doing something wrong, without the band playing it rattles the fillings but as soon as they start it just disappears.

Thing is, I've only been playing bass for a couple of years ( hence the daft questions) after playing guitar for 30 odd, so I'm fairly new to the world of compressors, active instruments etc. Don't understand compression at all, what is it used for?
Anyway, your help is much appreciated and like I said, keep it coming, I'm learning a huge amount just by reading the various topics/arguments et all.

[Tinman]

[b]waldo[/b]

Only thing i can think of would be to set everything to the amp flat, turn the pre-shape contour thingy and the compressor off and start from the beginning.

Try playing with your band how your normally would and get someone to adjust your setting while you're playing, that way you should be able to tailor your sound to how you want it while the whole band is in action.

I'd start boosting the midrange a little first, as this'll determine how well your sound will 'cut through' and then once you're happy with that cut/boost the bass and treble to your liking.

Personally, I'd turn the 30Hz slider right down - Speakers don't really deal with frequencies this low particularly well and it's just wasting the energy of your amp. You won't really notice it's gone and you'll be able to turn yourself up a bit more without your speakers farting out. People have been talking about this on other threads (Hi Dood!)

This is the reason why I don't really like amps with big band equilizers on them - You almost have *too much* control over your sound. They're great if you really know what your doing and know which frequencies do what, but if you're new they can be a bit of a nightmare and it's very easy to bollox your sound up. Give me 'bass, mid, and treble' knobs any day!

But yes, I say start from the beginning with everything flat and get someone to adjust your EQ whilst you play. Start with the midrange and work from there.

One more thing - If you find that you have to boost things majorly ie. you get a good sound if all the midrange sliders are at the top, something is definatly wrong. You should never have to use extreme EQ settings to get a good sound.

[Tinman]

[b]Merton[/b]

Another question to throw in - are you setting the input gain correctly? Make sure that the yellow lights are coming on. Trace's are great for giving you a visual check of signal level - green is too soft, red to hot, yellow just right. Remebr and EQ changed will necessitate a gain adjustment too, coz the level meter checks the whole pre-amp signal chain :-)

[Tinman]

Thanks Chris, I'll do that.
I was once told that the eq sliders should be set in an "unhappy face" style rather than a "happy face" so I guess that means centred around the mid frequencies.
I think what I'll do is what you said and flatten the eq on the amp and the guitar, cos the Ibanez basses I use have quite a powerful eq on them and try and get a good sound just by adjusting the amp.
What I want from my sound is punch but with a mellowness to it (if that means anything to you) I don't want anything too bright and clanky light I get if I boost the high mid frequencies.
Anyone that says playing bass is easy needs to get their heads out of their backsides.

[Tinman]

[b]ShakeyJake[/b]

QUOTE(tinman)


Don't understand compression at all, what is it used for?


Ever turn one of your tube guitar amps till it overdrives and the whole things sounds tighter and punchier? Thats compression (and overdrive) caused by the tubes. Basically it makes the quiet notes louder and the loud notes quieter. Try having slightly more on he bass side of things so thats tightened up and leave the treble compressor on a lower setting to let it sparkle.

Pre-shape is your enemy, by removing the mids its taking away all of your volume and leaving you with rumble and click. Try turning it off, just once. . . . . . . . .for me? :cry:

[Tinman]

[b]gremlinandy[/b]

The last band I was in had been rehearsing without a bassist for quite a while. They had compensated by having the guitars very loud and *very* bassy. After buying an array of amps and cabs I decided that the only way I'd be heard above the guitar was by not being in the same band. I now rehearse with a band which considers the overall sound more important than any personal ego.

Smoooth.

[Tinman]

Thanks again guys

QUOTE

Pre-shape is your enemy, by removing the mids its taking away all of your volume and leaving you with rumble and click. Try turning it off, just once. . . . . . . . .for me?


TURN OFF PRE-SHAPE?????????? :shock: My God, unheard of................Ok I'll give it a go. At the moment I'll give anything a go. I obviously need to start from scratch, it's a new amp and for someone relatively new to bass it's quite confusing, maybe I ran before I could walk, but I thought sod it, got the money, I'll buy it, I'm sure once I've sorted all this out, it will be awesome.

QUOTE

Another question to throw in - are you setting the input gain correctly?


Yes, I've got that sorted, however, it's at quite a low setting due to the amount of boost I've added. With all your help I'll get it sorted.

[Tinman]

[b]rodl2005[/b]

I dunno whether or not anyone has mentioned this B$ me OR if indeed U've tried it BUT...............
Do U have yr cabs pointing at yr head? A LOT od bass players have their cabs at knee height & therefore a lotta sound is just sweeping by 'em. Even when I use a 410 & a 1x15 I sit it on a riser of some sort. - a single 410 on a milk crate(18" hi approx) -same if I use a 1x15" If I'm using a 410 & a 1x15 I sit the bottom cab on something about 6" high. Makes a BIG difference having yr sound coming at yr head/chest rather than yr knees etc.. This, along with some of the other suggestions in this thread should have yr problem solved.
Let us know how U go!
Good luck
Rod.

[Tinman]

[b]JonnyM[/b]

+1 with rodl2005.
Also, if I'm using an unfamiliar amp, I adjust it with the band going full tilt and ignore what my head is telling me I SHOULDN'T do to the controls. That way I'll get a tone that I like "in context". As a few others here have said, that tone on it's own is not always very nice but it sounds right!
Good luck mate
Jonny

[Tinman]

[b]barneythedog[/b]

Just to add my wieght to what a few others have said - Whan I joined my current band they had been playing without a bass player for a while, and the guitar sound was really fantastic ......... ON IT'S OWN!

Once I started playing all there was at the bottom was mud. Took a while to convince the guitarist to cut his bass a little, but after a few battles it now sounds great. All instrumments need "their" position in the mix. Gets difficult when two (or more) of you are fighting over the same space.

[Tinman]

QUOTE(rodl2005 @ Apr 27 2007, 07:18 AM)
I dunno whether or not anyone has mentioned this B$ me OR if indeed U've tried it BUT...............
Do U have yr cabs pointing at yr head? A LOT od bass players have their cabs at knee height & therefore a lotta sound is just sweeping by 'em. Even when I use a 410 & a 1x15 I sit it on a riser of some sort. - a single 410 on a milk crate(18" hi approx) -same if I use a 1x15" If I'm using a 410 & a 1x15 I sit the bottom cab on something about 6" high. Makes a BIG difference having yr sound coming at yr head/chest rather than yr knees etc.. This, along with some of the other suggestions in this thread should have yr problem solved.
Let us know how U go!
Good luck
Rod.

Now there's an idea I'd been mulling over for a while, I've been toying with the idea of bulding a trolley of some sort to move the stuff around on anyway and I guess that would do as a riser of sorts. We're having a rehearsal tomorrow night so I'll let you know how I get on. What I've done so far is flatten the eq on both the bass and the amp and buld up from there, this was all done without the rest of the band playing so I guess I'll have to change things a bit. The guitarist that stands next to me uses a lot of bottom end in his sound but he's an amenable kind of guy and shouldn't take too much convincing to change his sound. I've also put a set of D'Addario chrome flats on the main bass that I use, thinking that they will mellow the sound out a bit, they've got a lovely feel to them and I'm looking forward to hearing them, as I haven't played through my rig since putting them on. I'll let you know.

[Tinman]

RIGHT!!! I hope you guys aren't getting bored with this topic cos I still need help!

Rehearsal last night, still got problems. First off I put the whole rig up on a small coffee table ( makes the whole thing taller than me and I'm 5'10") this seemed to solve the problem of hearing it when I'm stood next to it. Moving away from it I found that I got completely lost so I went back to it and boosted the higher mids but this only served to make the bottom end disappear, dropped the higher mids out and it got lost again (I feel it a good point to say that I had the volume up at number 5 throughout) Then I switched the valve in, with the "valve drive" set at about half and the mix control set to about a quarter, this made it cut through but gave it a middly kind of sound. I'm trying to avoid mucking with the bass's eq, boosting the treble just seems to make it click which causes the amp to clip. I'm wondering if the flats I out on it were a mistake and whether I should have put on half rounds instead.
I understand the idea of getting everyone else to turn down but we've still got to balance it against the drummer.

I appologise for the rambling nature of this post but please guys I really need you to stick with me on this, I'm getting kinda desperate.
How do I get that mellow, round sound that still has the ability to cut through the mix? Maybe I should stop listening to studio recordings and concentrate more on my own sound.