ii-V-I Progressions

[skywalker]

Hi All

Can anybody explain how these progressions work??.

I understand the theory behind the chords, but do the chords repeat through the verse/chorus, or are there likely to be other chords in there to trip me up??

Also can someone give me some examples that I can use for practice.

Thanks!!

Steve

[dlloyd]

[quote name='skywalker' post='548734' date='Jul 23 2009, 11:38 AM']Hi All

Can anybody explain how these progressions work??.

I understand the theory behind the chords, but do the chords repeat through the verse/chorus, or are there likely to be other chords in there to trip me up??

Also can someone give me some examples that I can use for practice.

Thanks!!

Steve[/quote]

Take the first line of Autumn Leaves

Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 Am7b5 D7#9 Gm7

(or whatever variation you're using)

There's two ii-V-I's there... the Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 and the Am7b5 D7#9 Gm7

The ii-V-I is usually just part of a bigger progression.

[skywalker]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='548833' date='Jul 23 2009, 12:49 PM']Take the first line of Autumn Leaves

Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 Ebmaj7 Am7b5 D7#9 Gm7

(or whatever variation you're using)

There's two ii-V-I's there... the Cm7 F7 Bbmaj7 and the Am7b5 D7#9 Gm7

The ii-V-I is usually just part of a bigger progression.[/quote]

So the ii-V-I is not the ii-V-I of the key, (In the example above the key would be Bbmaj , and the I would be Bbmaj7- or would it be Gmin, and the I would be Gm7??).

Sorry if I am being a numpty, but I haven't found a book or lesson that explains it.

Steve

[dlloyd]

[quote name='skywalker' post='548954' date='Jul 23 2009, 02:41 PM']So the ii-V-I is not the ii-V-I of the key, (In the example above the key would be Bbmaj , and the I would be Bbmaj7- or would it be Gmin, and the I would be Gm7??).

Sorry if I am being a numpty, but I haven't found a book or lesson that explains it.

Steve[/quote]

The ii-V-I relates to the key centre you're in... and that may change through the course of the tune, without an explicit key change.

Autumn Leaves is in G minor, but you treat the first bit as if it is Bb major... which is the relative major key of G minor, so it's easy...

[skywalker]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='549171' date='Jul 23 2009, 05:12 PM']The ii-V-I relates to the key centre you're in... and that may change through the course of the tune, without an explicit key change.

Autumn Leaves is in G minor, but you treat the first bit as if it is Bb major... which is the relative major key of G minor, so it's easy...[/quote]

Thanks - that begins to make some sense. So am I right(ish) in saying that the ii-V-I is actually a phrase within a bigger progression, rather than a progression in it's own right (like a 12 bar blues for instance).

Steve

[rslaing]

[quote name='skywalker' post='549261' date='Jul 23 2009, 06:36 PM']Thanks - that begins to make some sense. So am I right(ish) in saying that the ii-V-I is actually a phrase within a bigger progression, rather than a progression in it's own right (like a 12 bar blues for instance).

Steve[/quote]

II - V - I in the key of C major = Dm7 - G7 - C

II - V - I in the key of D major = Em7 - A7 - D

etc etc.

A lot of songs have VARYING KEY CENTRES (they actually change key several times during the song).

Some don't. A lot of pop tunes don't get beyond two chords - so you won't hear a II V I.

There are some generalisations in the following, because to be more specific would take a lot of pages.

Other types of modern music (blues, country, rock and roll (Status Quo) etc) don't have (straight forward) II V I's. There chord changes are based on I IV V (in no specific order, althought the tendency is still, but not always, for a dominant V chord (G7 for example) to go to the I (C Major in this case).

Blues songs don't adhere to these principles because the 3 main chords are all seventh chords E.G. C7 - f7 - C7 -etc and eventually a G7 to return to the C7.

To fully understand the II V I please read " The Weekly Lesson" in the theory section - it tells you all about this stuff. There are no short cuts.

And principally every other chord apart from the I II and V are alternative and interchangeable chords to the II V and I. We will be getting into functions in the next week or two.

A little taster.

In the key of C major, you can play a IV chord instead of the II chord and vice versa. ( F6 is "the same" as Dm7 with a different root. You can play the VII (Bm7b5) chord as an alternative to the V7 (G7). You can play the III chord (Em7) or the VI (Am7) chord instead of the I (Cmaj/Cmaj7).

Functional harmony is also important if you want to understand the answers to your questions, but don't worry, it's fairly easy to understand, and all will be revealed in the "Weekly Lessons" as they progress.

I am in the middle of preparing the next "Weekly Lesson" although it is a week late (bed-ridden with man flu recently). In this one, there will be a "play along" and lots of II V I's and analysis of key centres. As well as the opportunity to create some bass lines from the info supplied in the last 3 lessons.

If this is a clear as mud. pm me with some specific questions and I will do my best to help.

Rob

EDIT: afterthought - it's handy to know this stuff, but as a bass player, it is your job to define the harmonic structure of the song. So learning this material improves your abilities and effectiveness by knowing what works and what to leave out!

Edited July 23, 2009 by rslaing

[skywalker]

[quote name='rslaing' post='549290' date='Jul 23 2009, 07:04 PM']II - V - I in the key of C major = Dm7 - G7 - C

II - V - I in the key of D major = Em7 - A7 - D

etc etc.

A lot of songs have VARYING KEY CENTRES (they actually change key several times during the song).

Some don't. A lot of pop tunes don't get beyond two chords - so you won't hear a II V I.

There are some generalisations in the following, because to be more specific would take a lot of pages.

Other types of modern music (blues, country, rock and roll (Status Quo) etc) don't have (straight forward) II V I's. There chord changes are based on I IV V (in no specific order, althought the tendency is still, but not always, for a dominant V chord (G7 for example) to go to the I (C Major in this case).

Blues songs don't adhere to these principles because the 3 main chords are all seventh chords E.G. C7 - f7 - C7 -etc and eventually a G7 to return to the C7.

To fully understand the II V I please read " The Weekly Lesson" in the theory section - it tells you all about this stuff. There are no short cuts.

And principally every other chord apart from the I II and V are alternative and interchangeable chords to the II V and I. We will be getting into functions in the next week or two.

A little taster.

In the key of C major, you can play a IV chord instead of the II chord and vice versa. ( F6 is "the same" as Dm7 with a different root. You can play the VII (Bm7b5) chord as an alternative to the V7 (G7). You can play the III chord (Em7) or the VI (Am7) chord instead of the I (Cmaj/Cmaj7).

Functional harmony is also important if you want to understand the answers to your questions, but don't worry, it's fairly easy to understand, and all will be revealed in the "Weekly Lessons" as they progress.

I am in the middle of preparing the next "Weekly Lesson" although it is a week late (bed-ridden with man flu recently). In this one, there will be a "play along" and lots of II V I's and analysis of key centres. As well as the opportunity to create some bass lines from the info supplied in the last 3 lessons.

If this is a clear as mud. pm me with some specific questions and I will do my best to help.

Rob[/quote]

Hi Rob

That's fine. My thought was that ii-V-I was similar to a 12 bar in that it would follow a specific pattern. I will await the continued lessons.

Cheers

Steve

[foal30]

Perdido by Duke Ellington
that is II-V city

have a go at the Abersold playalongs
these are invaluable IMO

All the Things you Are
nice chords too

II-V-I might identify Jazz as much as I-IV does the blues