Key Signature Calculation

[Eight]

In typical fashion, I was never taught this. Just made to learn key signatures and scales by memory.

But stumbled across [url="http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id25_en.html"]http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id25_en.html[/url] this morning which is a pretty easy way of quickly figuring out how many sharps/flats are in a key if you know the number in seven basic keys (C,D,E,F,G,A,B ).

- - -

This bit is just for theory newbies and clarifies something

You still need to learn the order of sharps/flats. But thats pretty easy too. Just leard the sequence F C G D A E B.

For sharps: F C G D A E B
So 1# = F, 2# = F,C, 3# = F,C,G etc. This is the order they're written in on the key signatures in standard notation.

For flats, read it backwards
So 1b = B, 2b = B, E etc.

Oh and watch out for G# major which has 8 sharps. It wraps around
so you go F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#.. and then hit the F again for that 8th. F# + # = F##. = F##, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#

Edited March 19, 2009 by Eight

[OldGit]

Excellent! Thanks

[High score]

[quote name='Eight' post='438942' date='Mar 19 2009, 09:26 AM']In typical fashion, I was never taught this. Just made to learn key signatures and scales by memory.

But stumbled across [url="http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id25_en.html"]http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/html/id25_en.html[/url] this morning which is a pretty easy way of quickly figuring out how many sharps/flats are in a key if you know the number in seven basic keys (C,D,E,F,G,A,B ).

- - -

This bit is just for theory newbies and clarifies something

You still need to learn the order of sharps/flats. But thats pretty easy too. Just leard the sequence F C G D A E B.

For sharps: F C G D A E B
So 1# = F, 2# = F,C, 3# = F,C,G etc. This is the order they're written in on the key signatures in standard notation.

For flats, read it backwards
So 1b = B, 2b = B, E etc.

Oh and watch out for G# major which has 8 sharps. It wraps around
so you go F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#.. and then hit the F again for that 8th. F# + # = F##. = F##, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#[/quote]

Yep, very good little tip for using keys without needing all the theory behind it - this is also called the Circle Of Fifths

[Eight]

[quote name='High score' post='438977' date='Mar 19 2009, 10:08 AM']Yep, very good little tip for using keys without needing all the theory behind it - this is also called the Circle Of Fifths[/quote]
Yeah, wasn't sure whether to bring that term in or not. Probably should have.

I'm not sure if the guy who did the presentation covered the circle in an earlier lesson (he probably did) but I thought the first question someone would ask after following the link would be "Ok, I now know Eb major has three flats, but how do I figure out which ones?" so wanted to clarify that a bit.

[High score]

[quote name='Eight' post='438987' date='Mar 19 2009, 10:14 AM']Yeah, wasn't sure whether to bring that term in or not. Probably should have.

I'm not sure if the guy who did the presentation covered the circle in an earlier lesson (he probably did) but I thought the first question someone would ask after following the link would be "Ok, I now know Eb major has three flats, but how do I figure out which ones?" so wanted to clarify that a bit.[/quote]

sorry, wasn't being smart..........your type of nemonic is how I started to remember keys before exploring theory and yours does work. Now I tend to visualise the circle...works for me.

Loads of sites on this for example:


[url="http://www.guitarlessonworld.com/lessons/lesson18.htm"]http://www.guitarlessonworld.com/lessons/lesson18.htm[/url]

[Eight]

[quote name='High score' post='438990' date='Mar 19 2009, 10:17 AM']sorry, wasn't being smart..........[/quote]
Oh I know mate. And I think you were right to point it out. Probably good that anyone who reads this stuff knows what its called.

[dlloyd]

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle

Simple to learn

[Gman]

So if one is to count the number of sharp or flat chords in a song, that would indicate the key? Like, if there were 2 sharp chords and 2 non sharp chords that would indicate a key of C#?

Hmmm, still confused and that link just confused me more! Maybe if I spent more than 2 minutes scanning through it, I'd understand it better? Or am I just the musical equivalent of the village idiot?

[High score]

[quote name='Gman' post='439201' date='Mar 19 2009, 01:24 PM']So if one is to count the number of sharp or flat chords in a song, that would indicate the key? Like, if there were 2 sharp chords and 2 non sharp chords that would indicate a key of C#?

Hmmm, still confused and that link just confused me more! Maybe if I spent more than 2 minutes scanning through it, I'd understand it better? Or am I just the musical equivalent of the village idiot? [/quote]

Nah, you being hard on yourself. All the Circle of Fifths does is summarise the following:

Every major scale with sharps starts on the fifth note of the previous one with an interval that will [u]always[/u][b][/b] follow the same structure where T= whole Tone, S = semitone, for example:

C [color="#FF0000"]t [/color] D [color="#FF0000"]t[/color] E [color="#FF0000"]s[/color] F [color="#FF0000"]t [/color] G [color="#FF0000"]t[/color] A [color="#FF0000"]t[/color] B [color="#FF0000"]s[/color] C

[color="#FF0000"]t t s t t t s[/color]

So the next scale with sharps starting on the [u]fifth[/u][b][/b] note of the C major is G

G [color="#FF0000"] t[/color] A [color="#FF0000"]t[/color] B [color="#FF0000"]s[/color] C [color="#FF0000"]t [/color] D [color="#FF0000"] t[/color] E [color="#FF0000"]s[/color] F [color="#FF0000"]t [/color] G

[color="#FF0000"]t t s t t s t[/color]

However if you look at the structure of the C major, you will see that in the G major scale, E to F in is a semitone and the F to G is a tone. To correct this, the F needs to be sharpened giving

G [color="#FF0000"]t [/color] A [color="#FF0000"] t[/color] B [color="#FF0000"]s[/color] C [color="#FF0000"]t [/color] D [color="#FF0000"]t [/color] E [color="#FF0000"] t[/color] F # [color="#FF0000"]s[/color] G

[color="#FF0000"]t t s t t t s[/color]


If you take the fifth note of G major which is D and so on, you will find that you will sharpen the seventh note in every instance until reaching C#

I don't want to drag this out but scales using flats have a similar approach using the fourth note of the scale which you can read up on.

All the circle of fifths does is neatly summarise all this calculation for you. Even if you can't remember all this but can learn a simple nemonic or visualise the circle of fifths, it will go a long way to helping you work out keys, constructing chords, which chords to use etc. I am no expert in theory and I know there are some tutors out there who can explain it better but knowing the basics will help you enormously.

Hope this helps you and wasn't too confusing........

[Eight]

[quote name='Gman' post='439201' date='Mar 19 2009, 01:24 PM']Or am I just the musical equivalent of the village idiot? [/quote]
Nope, you're just asking a different question from that which the presented info answers.

Here we're just talking about working out what are the default sharps and flats of a key that you don't know by heart.

You're wondering about figuring out a key from an existing piece of music; and that's tricky. But you want to look at the notes that are in a chord as opposed to the chord itself.

e.g.
The chord progression: C, F, G - stock 12 bar pattern. If you played it as triads (three notes per chord), wrote down all the notes present in that you'd get C, E, G, F, A, B, D (in order with no duplicates). No sharps or flats so it *could* be a C major. The key signature wouldn't have any sharps or flats on it.

Something like Dmaj, Gmaj, Amin (just randomly thinking here) you'd have D, F# A, G, B, D, C, E - one sharp. So it might be based on a G major key.

Unfortunately it gets more complicated when you start chucking in relative minor keys, key changes and notes that people just decide to play sharp or flat for various reasons/styles.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Eight

[Sean.Robinson]

nice little rhyme i was taught to remember them:

Father
Charles
Goes
Down
And
Enters
Battle

and for flats

Battle
Enters
And
Down
Goes
Charles
Father

one or two may laff at first but it works

[Gman]

[quote]Unfortunately it gets more complicated when you start chucking in relative minor keys, key changes and notes that people just decide to play sharp or flat for various reasons/styles.[/quote]

LOL....think I'll stick with my magic ears and general blagging to get me through the rest of my bassplaying life!!

[Eight]

[quote name='Gman' post='439803' date='Mar 19 2009, 10:05 PM']LOL....think I'll stick with my magic ears and general blagging to get me through the rest of my bassplaying life!![/quote]
Hell if you have magic ears then all this theory sh*t will probably be a lot easier for you.

Get stuck in son.