Mod_Machine Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [attachment=69855:restore_strap_pin.jpg]Hi - im resto-ing an old jdeson telecaster bass [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=119103"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=119103[/url] Although all photos ive ever seen of these little oddities show them as being quite central to the back end of the body, mine is placed further up and round a bit! Having already stripped and resprayed i know it has been like this from factory. Im contemplating re locating but first thought i would ask, is there an issue with it being where it is? Will it place undue strain on me or bass? Mod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I often offset the rear button on my builds with no adverse effects at all, in fact to the contrary there are 2 major benefits. Firstly it raises the angle that the neck sits at (great if you like to wear your bass a little low) and secondly if you rest your bass up against your amp or a wall it won't fall over (works best on Jazzes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod_Machine Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Cool - that would be good! Its a 3/4 small scale so not particularly heavy and has a 1 1/4 inch screw going in nice and straight. As its smaller, and im due to cover over the bridge pick up area with string cover i would probably be wear ing a little lower to compensate and allow me a comfortable arm position to dig in between the pick ups - the neck being angled up a bit would also certainly help this. Im guessing that due to this getting strap locks might be good idea.... I have used a red rubber 'bottle' donut on my jetking to keep the strap on that so if anyone else has any similar cheap alternatives to buying a couple of proper strap locks let me know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1100682' date='Jan 24 2011, 12:42 PM'].... Firstly it raises the angle that the neck sits at ....[/quote] Actually, no, it may do precisely the opposite. Yep, I really did mean that. Moving the strap button up the bass may make the neck sit at a lower angle. So it may cause neck-dive where there was none before. Yes, I know that sounds bizarre, so let me try to explain. Are you sitting comfortably? This may take a while. Perhaps first I should say that I play a Thumb, which has taught me a loooooot about neckdive and general balance issues, and I've discussed this at extraordinary length on the Warwick forum, and with a couple of engineers and physics graduates. The conclusion I reached is that the key thing is the horizontal spacing between the centre of gravity and the strap buttons. When the horizontal distance from the C of G to both strap buttons is the same, the bass will be perfectly balanced. So what does that mean about moving strap buttons? Put your bass at your ideal playing angle. If the neck is at much of an angle above the horizontal then by moving the strap button up the body you have effectively moved it to the right, i.e., away from the centre of gravity. This means the bass will pull down more on the top strap button (the one nearer to the C of G) pulling the neck downwards. On the other hand, if your preferred playing position has the neck horizontal, then moving the strap button up the bass will move it towards the C of G. That will put more weight on the back part of the strap, so will pull the neck up. In this case moving the strap button would raise the neck angle. So the precise outcome depends on 1) what angle you like to play at, and 2) what shape your bass is. And yes, you can use this to work out where to put the bottom strap button to get the best balance, as long as you know where the centre of gravity of your bass is. The OP's bass has a fairly flat bottom, so any angle above the horizontal will tend to move the bottom button away from the C of G, making the neck dive more than it would. To get back to the original question: I wouldn't move the button unless you are sure you know how this will change the balance of the bass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod_Machine Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 Ok - that makes sense. So best thing would be to strap her up, play it a while and see what needs to be changed, moving the button down towards the centre if the neck is diving to help balance it up if needed. Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='mart' post='1100821' date='Jan 24 2011, 02:21 PM']Actually, no, it may do precisely the opposite. Yep, I really did mean that. Moving the strap button up the bass may make the neck sit at a lower angle. So it may cause neck-dive where there was none before. Yes, I know that sounds bizarre, so let me try to explain. Are you sitting comfortably? This may take a while. Perhaps first I should say that I play a Thumb, which has taught me a loooooot about neckdive and general balance issues, and I've discussed this at extraordinary length on the Warwick forum, and with a couple of engineers and physics graduates. The conclusion I reached is that the key thing is the horizontal spacing between the centre of gravity and the strap buttons. When the horizontal distance from the C of G to both strap buttons is the same, the bass will be perfectly balanced. So what does that mean about moving strap buttons? Put your bass at your ideal playing angle. If the neck is at much of an angle above the horizontal then by moving the strap button up the body you have effectively moved it to the right, i.e., away from the centre of gravity. This means the bass will pull down more on the top strap button (the one nearer to the C of G) pulling the neck downwards. On the other hand, if your preferred playing position has the neck horizontal, then moving the strap button up the bass will move it towards the C of G. That will put more weight on the back part of the strap, so will pull the neck up. In this case moving the strap button would raise the neck angle. So the precise outcome depends on 1) what angle you like to play at, and 2) what shape your bass is. And yes, you can use this to work out where to put the bottom strap button to get the best balance, as long as you know where the centre of gravity of your bass is. The OP's bass has a fairly flat bottom, so any angle above the horizontal will tend to move the bottom button away from the C of G, making the neck dive more than it would. To get back to the original question: I wouldn't move the button unless you are sure you know how this will change the balance of the bass![/quote] And yet my headstocks point to the stars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1100862' date='Jan 24 2011, 02:43 PM']And yet my headstocks point to the stars. [/quote] Well, of course, my argument is based in theory, and we all know how close theory is to practice Seriously though, I'd be interested to see the details of a bass that has had the strap button moved up, and balances in a more upright position as a result. Ideally, I'd like a picture of the shape of the bass, with the strap buttons marked on it, and the centre of gravity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Mod_Machine' post='1100857' date='Jan 24 2011, 02:41 PM']Ok - that makes sense. So best thing would be to strap her up, play it a while and see what needs to be changed, moving the button down towards the centre if the neck is diving to help balance it up if needed. Cool.[/quote] Yep, strap her up and see. OTOH, if it were me, I'd work out where the centre of gravity is, decide what angle I want the bass at (probably using a camera to take a picture of me holding the bass at the right angle), and then see where the bottom strap button should go to achieve that angle. And then probably end up compromising, cos this ain't an exact science How do you work out where the C of G is? Connect the strap on to one button only, and dangle the bass freely (by holding the strap). Take a photo and draw the vertical line through the strap button. Now do the same from the other button (or from any convenient point from which you can dangle the bass). Where those two lines meet is your C of G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ou7shined Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) [quote name='mart' post='1100920' date='Jan 24 2011, 03:28 PM']Well, of course, my argument is based in theory, and we all know how close theory is to practice Seriously though, I'd be interested to see the details of a bass that has had the strap button moved up, and balances in a more upright position as a result. Ideally, I'd like a picture of the shape of the bass, with the strap buttons marked on it, and the centre of gravity.[/quote] For a good example click on the Pingray in my sig. Here I think is the only pic I think I have with it being worn front on (by BC's very own Greeneking) [attachment=69872:Moffat_Peter_low.jpg] You can see that even though the button has been raised, when it is at rest it still becomes the most "westward" point of the bass thus tilting the neck up a bit. ( I have pics of me playing it but it wouldn't give a very fair representation of how it sits naturally as I have a tendency to wear the bass like this....[attachment=69874:Rich.jpg] <- embarrassing smug look ) Edited January 24, 2011 by Ou7shined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neepheid Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1100945' date='Jan 24 2011, 03:58 PM'][attachment=69874:Rich.jpg] <- embarrassing smug look )[/quote] Nonsense - quality bass face Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mart Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 [quote name='Ou7shined' post='1100945' date='Jan 24 2011, 03:58 PM']For a good example click on the Pingray in my sig. Here I think is the only pic I think I have with it being worn front on (by BC's very own Greeneking) [attachment=69872:Moffat_Peter_low.jpg] You can see that even though the button has been raised, when it is at rest it still becomes the most "westward" point of the bass thus tilting the neck up a bit. ...[/quote] Thanks for that. I'll have a think about what you're saying, but I don't think it matters much where the strap button is in relation to the most westerly point - it's where it is in relation the centre of gravity (and the other button) that matters. Perhaps I should point out that I don't think moving the button will have a big effect either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod_Machine Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 'Perhaps I should point out that I don't think moving the button will have a big effect either way. ' Probably right - just one of those things i thought id ask to be save rather than sorry - another of those 'wondered but always been afraid to ask in case i look stupid' questions thats seems both meaningless and simple! However good to see both a little science and personal feel behind the responses so i feel a little less ridiculous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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