bigjohn

It will be / is the prerogative of each EU member state how they treat visitors from 3rd party states.

No, I never said that either.

Thats not what I said. What I said was, pretty much every detriment to the UK that’s perceived as EU imposition is traceable back to UK government policy. Fishing rights is a prime example. It doesn’t take much to research it. But whilst we’re at it, all of the directives, regulations and decisions taken by the EU were done with the UK as a highly influential member with a veto which the UK government of the day has chosen to write into sovereign UK law rather than make use of. I said nothing about them being in Brussels. literally nothing, ever has been imposed on the UK by the EU against the express will and without cooperation of the UK government, If you have a problem with any of them, then your problem is with the UK government and not the EU. These are not my opinions either, they’re just plain fact.

And in terms of restrictions and costs to work temporary contracts directly with EU based companies, across the whole of the UK workforce. I've done 10s of thousands of pounds of work for Irish, Dutch and German companies over the years without leaving my house (I work in IT). I'm pretty sure I won't be getting those jobs any more as I guess their payroll will require additional admin which will make it much easier to give it to a EU citizen. Before someone says that means there will be more UK work... it won't.

TBF, this is a musicians forum and so the gripe about the effects on musicians is natural. In the wider scheme of things, it's not going to be just musicians though is it?

Then if we were still members and our democratically elected representatives thought that the regulations were not in the UKs interest, then they could have been vetoed. BTW. The whole fishing rights thing is a complete red herring. The idea that the fishing industry has been decimated by the the EU is a fallacy. As usual with the UK, it has far more to do with UK government policy, which was to privatise fishing rights, meaning foreign boats bought and buy licences to fish what should be, under EU rules, UK catch. And also by the way, without complete change in this regard and a pay out of large compensation to the rights holders (some of whom are rich UK citizens who sub out their licences) this will continue after Brexit no matter what Cummings and his cronies would have you believe. Pretty much every detriment to the UK that's perceived as EU imposition is actually traceable in one way or another back to UK Government policy and has little to do with the EU in comparison. If you want to play the game of naming one that isn't, be my guest.

Maybe. I think the problem with trying to positives though is that it allows people to gloss over the real problems that this amongst other aspects of Brexit will cause. Solutions and mitigation of those problems are what we need to find and the first step with solving any problem is admitting that they do exist.

Except for all of the people from the UK travelling to the EU to see non UK bands... I already have done far too much of that due to sell outs and thanks to the stupidly expensive rail system we have the UK. Sometimes it's barely any more expensive to go see a band in Amsterdam or Milan than it is to see them in London. That's before the likely price hike we'll see when this comes into view.

Oh Great. So people are now giving advice to others which includes breaking the laws of our own country and others whilst they're at it. Taking back control... Pretty sure a musician here, working with no work visa would, if discovered, be arrested, detained uncomfortably and for an unspecified time before being blacklisted and deported. Never mind the trouble that the promoter and the venue would incur for employing an illegal immigrant. What makes anyone think the same wouldn't happen abroad to a UK citizen doing the same?

Yep. All well and get crying "It's democracy" when something happens that you wanted. It's very difficult to get things done when politicians don't value what you want as a vote winner. People would do well to remember that over 48% of the vote wasn't for Brexit and the turnout, although high means that only 37.4 of the electorate voted in favour. It's a minority cause and always has been, which has been blown out of all proportion by electioneering. When the problems it is causing are brought to people's attention, then people who voted for Brexit should really know better than essentially saying "deal with it". And "write to your MP" isn't much better. "Sorry for ****ing your life up" would be a start.

If you don’t mind... what about the rest of that don’t live in your fantasy world and have to deal with reality rather than what you think will happen? and yes, it’s quite clearly a removal. It’s the removal of the right to live and work in the EU. From now on, we won’t have the right, we will have to ask permission.

You do realise that this thread is about Brexit causing a specific increase in bureaucracy and costs for performance artists? You are aware, this is directly caused by the removal of the standard that we know as Freedom of Movement?

No, standards are standards. You don't increase efficiency by removing standards, in fact, in a globalised economy, the opposite is true. Call them red tape if you like, but it's a semantic and ultimately flawed, essentially ideological argument which is anti-globalist and inherently small time. If you want an example of how standards and efficiency work, think of the decimal system vs imperial. Removing standards is backward. Funny how even the yanks now provide data and use the decimal in engineering (and have done for decades since learning some fairly horrific lessons during the Apollo Program) despite it not being "their" standard. And funny how Trump decries the "Brussels effect" in the same way.

Why would non EU countries by from the UK when they could just buy US produce from the US? Why would we want to base our trade and foreign policy on being a middle man for US made goods? What's so good about US made goods? Why is that a better arrangement than taking billions in tax receipts for being the bank and insurer for the largest trading bloc on Earth? The questions go on and on BTW...

Okay. I'll play along... access to what specific opportunity? And how does not being in the EU mean we're first in the queue? BTW, it's no given that the EU is going into anything like a recession and it's still on an upwards trend regardless... Canada is the best recovering western advanced economy and guess who they've aligned with?

Pretty sure that will be the case come December... There's no such thing as an EU visa afaik.

Yeah, that's my prediction. Say bye bye to Gibraltar too. There's a lot of fighting to do first though. I don't think we'll get a deal (that Johnson can sell as a win) this year and that's going to be pretty economically catastrophic. At which point any of the territories that want out of the UK will go pretty swiftly.

Let's hope not eh? Otherwise there'll be a lot more than visas being redundant. And my Russian is awful.

It's not going to wipe the industry out completely, but it's not going to do it any favours is it? It's just an added cost and added ball ache and that will mean less of it happens. That's how economic activity tends to work.

We're talking at cross purposes. You are trying to identify the smallest proportion of the industry that you can agree will be definitely effected. I'm saying it will effect the whole industry, parts of it to a lesser or greater degree.

It's worth a lot of money in aggregate, but is made up of lots of relatively small transactions with small margins on each.

The likely effects of visas and carnets on the performing arts industry as a whole is what's more concerning. As we've already discussed, touring bands are less likely to come to the UK. Prices are likely to rise to cover costs for those that do. And yes, it's not just bands, its all of the performing arts, which is not diddly squat. It's £10s of billions. It's also an industry with a very high Gross Added Value. ie, it brings huge revenues to associated industries such as bars and restaurants, retail, transport etc.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/priti-patel-immigration-music-industry-home-office-a9347921.html So the Creative Arts industry is worth an estimated £111Bln a year... It's not just about a few musos moving or not moving to Dublin...

I run an SME. We employ 3 people. 2 of them are youngish. All British. They’re all sound and we pay to train them. Unfortunately, we won’t be employing any more people, British or not for the foreseeable as to expand we would rely on EU grants, as we did when we set up, as our business is heavily reliant on plant and capital investment. There are no UK equivalents and none are expected to replace them.

There's plenty of fruit and veg that needs picking. Although, from what I've heard through the grapevine, the plan is for licensed companies to sort that out with semi mobile, billeted Ukrainians. What could possibly go wrong there?