greghagger

This week a student asked me about the bass line from the Led Zeppelin classic, 'Good Times Bad Times' and it reminded me of just how good this bass line is. John Paul Jones's bass playing is on form in this song and there are some technically interesting lines to play.

There are two sections and two licks in particular that seem to cause problems so I thought this would be a perfect choice of bass line to make a YouTube lesson on.

John Paul Jones is such a creative bass player and so many famous bass players have stated that he's one of their influences so he's a great musician to study.

This isn't an easy bass line but it's fun to pull apart and you might be surprised when you find that this bass line could easily be taken from a Motown tune!

There is a full transcription of the bass line in standard notation and Tab available under the video. 
 

On 30/08/2023 at 13:48, Horizontalste said:

I'm sitting firmly on the fence on this one but what I will say is that music theory is exactly that, a theory, an agreed upon method of explaining the phenomenon that is music.

 

Music existed long before the theory of it did.

 

Yes, music existed before music theory and the theory has evolved as the music has evolved. 

On 29/08/2023 at 21:35, ahpook said:

I know very little music theory compared to some, but one thing what I have learned is why the things I learned from learning from recordings and jamming actually work.

 

I found it a bit like learning a slightly more complex bit of maths that unifies what you we're already familiar with.

 

 

It always amazes me that when you look at music theory and analyse music, there are always patterns there behind it all. Similar to the way that nature is made up of lots of pattens. 
 

The Circle Of Fifths diagram (or Cycle Of Fourths!) is a perfect example of the maths behind music. There are endless patterns in this circle. 
 

Of course it’s the human touch that truly makes a beautiful piece of music but music theory doesn’t take that magic away. 

7 hours ago, chris_b said:

Everyone knows some music theory.

 

We all know the difference between a root note and the 5, major from minor, A from a G. That's music theory.

Good point! That’s the thing, everyone picks up a certain amount of music theory unintentionally even without a teacher or without purposely studying music. 

43 minutes ago, itu said:

Analyze is the first word that comes to my mind. Analyze scores, playing, chords, scales... 

definitely analysing which is a lot faster with an understanding of music theory. Also great for your playing 👍

10 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

I think you misinterpreted my reply, if not right out ignoring parts of it, as far as I am concerned there is nothing wrong with responding to people's comments in a thread, rather than videos posted, although I am sure you are happy for the coins you get from people clicking it (if you didn't want people to comment on anything but the video, you could just have posted the video and spared your strongly opinionated write up as to why you made the video, which apparently now, according to yourself, is irrelevant, despite you choosing to post it ).  

 

Sure we all have biases, but sometimes it is a healthy exercise to at least try being objective, and actually challenge our own closemindedness.

 

Only presenting facts that supports your opinion is not very objective and a rather lazy attempt, if even an attempt at all, to side step bias.

 

If you had honestly actually at least tried to be objective, as your video title promise, you would have digged up examples that could support the opposite viewpoint, which, remember, was not weather music theory is useful, which would be right out silly to oppose, but rather if learning music theory is a necessity to become/be a proper/"real" bass player.   

 

Your own premises, not mine, which unfortunately you do absolutely nothing to investigate or challenge in that video, despite choosing a tittle that promises so, rather than being honest, for which the only reason I can think of being to attract more clicks.

 

But at least after all you still seem to have enough integrity left to have spared insulting your viewer's intelligence further by including big red arrows in the video thumbnail. 

 

 

Nothing constructive in your comment and you sound very defensive. There is a wealth of information out there for you to take or leave. What you decide to do really doesn’t matter to me, it’s your choice. But perhaps if you did learn music theory, you’d be in a better position to discuss whether you need it or not. 
 

There’s nothing to gain by this line of communication so let’s leave it here. 

1 hour ago, itu said:

I think Baloney is taking this a bit too personally. Paco de Lucia learned note reading because McLaughlin and Meola said it is about time. It is true there are top musicians that aren't formally trained. But...

 

I suppose I am mediocre at best. Studies in music schools, lots of training and the ability to read and even write scores has been my edge. Some theory has pushed me far further than I could ever have reached by myself. I remind you that when I learned music, interweb, and youtube were non-existent. Players exchanged copies of scores, and copied LPs, CCs, and later even CDs. Now web is full of scores, lessons, whatever.

 

As said, theory isn't a must, but as the tools are there, why not to use them?

I agree with all of this. Knowledge of music theory certainly opens a lot of doors.
 

I learnt bass initially with a cable wired into my record player! Records were just on the cusp of being replaced by cassette around then. No internet and we didn’t even have a TV 😂 I can only remember one bass magazine that had the odd bit of Tab in it. 

5 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

I was a punk when I was young, part of the schtick was to be anti-everything and while that did encourage independence and a strong DIY ethic, which I still have thanks to the era, it also made us throw a lot of the good stuff out with the bathwater. I remember arguing vociferously against learning theory, backed up with hollow arguments about not adhering to a orthodoxy, how untrained musicians make interesting and surprising note/chord choices.

 

Then I was lucky enough to meet someone classically trained, a violinist, guitarist and singer, who is steeped in theory. She makes note/chord choices that even I wince at. Because she understands the orthodoxy she absolutely understands how to subvert it. I'm rambling, in short, know your enemy. Now I just wished I'd learnt theory when I was a kid, not that it was an option as my family were a) bastards, b) not financially well off and, (just for good measure), c) bastards again. But it isn't their fault (even though they were bastards) that I am not learning theory today, that's my hangup, but man, I wish I'd learned.

Very honest post Frank. I rebelled by picking up a bass as I was learning piano from my Dad at the age of 4 and then trumpet. Playing in a band was my two fingers up at the establishment.
 

But once I realised around the age of 18 that I could actually play bass for a living if I soaked up everything about music, I embraced it all and went for it. Switching what I had already learnt about reading music and music theory from the other instruments was easy to transfer to bass. I thanked my Dad many times for teaching me music in those early years and enabling me to support myself and a family through playing bass. 
 

if I can learn music theory from 4 years of age, anyone can quite easily, especially with the amount of resources out there now like @itu pointed out. 

14 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Come to think of it there might be a misunderstanding happening here, I think when you say musician you might be talking about being a professional instrumentalist, in this context bass player, and probably maybe even hired gun/studio bassist more specifically, while I am talking about being a real musician, by which I am mainly thinking in the context of being an original composer.

 

Also your video is alright I suppose, although rather biased and one sided, seems like you pretty obviously right from the start, rather than exploring the subject, as otherwise promised by the title of the video being posed as a question, had a clear one sided mission of proving your personal opinion about it, so a more honest title for the video perhaps would have been "Why You Need To Learn Music Theory As A Bass Player", which again suggests that you were prioritizing making more people click your video over clear communication.

 

When that is said I never really commented/replied to the video, but on what you otherwise stated in the OP and replies you posted in this thread.

 

Threads tend to evolve and branch out from strictly being about the OP (original post), you can't really expect people to solely focus on the the OP (original post), and to an even lesser degree your personal main objective with the OP (original post), and not to comment on what else is being said in a thread, especially not if it is responses to what OP (original poster) otherwise posted.

 

That was quite a long-winded way to say that you replied without watching the video. 
 

Of course we all have biases, mine is that I value music theory, yours is that you don’t. But surely presenting a question as the title of a video is acceptable even if I already know my answer? I thought that using ten famous bass players from a list that I didn’t pick and looking into their musical education was an objective way to sidestep my bias as much as possible. It surprised me that even more than I thought had studied music  when I did this. 
 

Anyway, as I said before, I’m not looking to try to changed people’s mind but to present the facts and I reckon that over 40 years of studying many different styles of music and playing bass professionally for over 25 years puts me a good position to make this video. 

44 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Sorry, but I don't know how to possibly have a constructive conversation with someone who straight out ignores all my arguments/points.

 

As I already stated in my first response to you I am not opposing that music theory indeed can be very helpful when playing and composing music, I am however opposing your patronizing statements of it being a requirement to be considered a "real" musician and to make "real" music, and, as I also think I actually already pointed out pretty clearly, I am pretty certain that I have music history, at least the more modern one, on my side in that argument.  

 

I don't need music theory to recognize and know what sounds great, and I don't need music theory to know, or at least be able to find out, how to make that sound happen.

 

Neither do I need music theory to tell everyone else how to play, cause I trust they got ears too.

 

This particular line of discussion doesn’t seem to be going anywhere for either of us. 
 

Let’s move on….
 

What did you think of the video? 

10 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

So what you are saying is my music is crap, and it is supposedly because I don't know enough theory?

 

And I don't need to have a great insight in music theory to know what music theory means.

 

Just like I don't need you to point out your insults to know them for what they are.

 

Cool well if you’re going to put words in my mouth and are not up for a civil conversation then let’s move on 👍

5 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Plenty of highly skilled, acclaimed professional "amateurs" by your definition then. 

 

And you still totally ignore my point that you can still make amazing music without basically knowing any music theory, just by practice and actually using your ears.

 

The only thing you really need is having a great pair of ears and training them to be better, might be easier if you learn some theory too, but not in any way necessary to make just as amazing great music as one who learned the names of they sounds they make.

 

You’ve ignored my point that you have strong opinions about something that you by your own admission don’t know. Music theory is often misunderstood by those that don’t know it. 
 

Anyway I’m sure that if you viewed my video (with an open mind), you might be surprised at what you find and we might be having a different conversation. 

I’m not trying to change anyone’s views on this as I believe that we should all choose our own path with music but I thought it would be good to cut through some of the BS that I read online from people who misunderstand what music theory is. 

2 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

I was basically replying to you strongly insinuating that you couldn't be a real musician without learning music theory, but seems you missed that, even if I think I made it pretty clear:

 

Ah, no I wouldn’t be that insulting! I was trying to distinguish between players who want to ‘have a tinkle’ or just want to have some fun and those that want to find out all they can and take it to the next level. 

3 hours ago, snorkie635 said:

I don't know much about music theory at all. To immediately give my answer to the question in the topic, I say, no, you do not need to know music theory to write, play and perform well on an instrument. I would add that I assume knowing theory would add to your knowledge of music and that can only be a good thing. My own area of theoretical knowledge relates to Literature, and I can approach a text from a variety of angles I'd never have imagined, had I not been trained at university so to do.

 

I would most likely enjoy and benefit from a greater knowledge of music theory, but I have only so much time left to devote to any hobby/interest, so l'll continue to enjoy my amateur status and see myself as a bass player rather than a musician.

It’s a lot easier than you think to learn theory as you go. You can still do this and remain an amateur 😀

4 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

I don't agree...

 

I don't think knowing musical theory is a requirement to be a "real" musician.

 

Not at all.

 

I composed and created this without any deep knowledge of music theory :

 

And plenty of examples of great music that has been made by very real and acknowledged musicians without deep knowledge of music theory.

 

You don't really need descriptive theory to understand music.

 

All it really requires is you using your ears (and eyes).

 

 

And I also think you are kind of missing some of the main points of that video.

 

I think one of the points of the video is that what we call music theory, THE Music Theory, is just one way to look at and understand music, and if you don't realize that it will be limiting and constraining, while I don't think it in any way suggests that it is useless, and I, and for certain Adam Neely, would still absolutely call it very useful, as it absolutely does make it easier to communicate musical ideas.

 

But just as knowing a different language than your native one expands your ability to communicate and offers different options, not only in number of people you are able to communicate with, but also actually changes and expands your idea of language as such, allowing you to express concepts and ideas in a somewhat different way in one language over another. 

 

Looking and understanding the world through the filter of different languages simply changes your whole perspective of the world slightly.

 

 

Also H.C Andersen was a dyslexic and Einstein struggled with mathematics in school. 

 

 

Music theory is a way to get a deeper understanding of how music works and is certainly excellent to know if you wish to communicate with others about music. You mention “a deep understanding of music theory” but I’m just talking about learning theory as you learn your instrument. I’m not talking about being a scholar here! 
 

You’ve picked just two examples of musicians taking about their own experiences with music. There is a vast wealth of music out there and why wouldn’t you want to really understand how it works? 
 

I’m not sure if you are just commenting without watching my video but you’ve definitely backed up what I said in my conclusion which is I’ve never met anyone who knows music theory to say not to learn it. The people who say not to learn theory don’t (by their own admission) know music theory. I find that interesting! 

Of course we all take our own path with music but to offer advice about something that we haven’t learnt about is surprising to me. 
 

5 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Which music theory exactly are you referring to? :

 

Yes I’ve seen this too. Interesting perspective.
 

Music theory is not actually connected to one style/era of music though. It allows you to explain what you are playing to others and very much applied to ‘modern’ music. Invaluable if you wish to become a musician rather just play songs on the bass. 

I've seen a lot of debates online about whether or not it is necessary to learn music theory and whether this will enhance or detract from your playing. It's always struck me that the arguments come from those who, by their own admission don't know music theory.

So I thought it was time to talk through this debate and offer some of my experience to help you to get clarity on this subject.

I've looked into the musical education of a select list of ten famous bass players to see what I can gleam from this information. I think that you might be surprised by what I found out!

Check out the latest GBS YouTube video by clicking the image below.

On 25/08/2023 at 04:47, ajwillshire said:

Great video, Greg!

 

Nathan East was my original bass hero. Here's a few underappreciated/unseranalysed moments you might like:

 

This Clapton live album is great all the way through but Bell Bottom Blues into Change the World is full of beautiful bass moments (and Billy Preston wailing over the top as well!)

 

 

This live version of Easy Lover is pretty straight, but there's a moment at 2.53 where he changes it up and another at 4.30 where he straightens up the groove and it's so cool. Daryl Steurmer's solo is ace too.

 

Finally, this is a recent release - the change in bassline at 2.50 is awesome.

 

 

I could go on... but thanks again for the transcription and I hope there's something here you'll enjoy.

 

Thanks so much, great shares. I may well make a lesson on one/all of these. 
 

I also really loved Nathan East when I first started playing in the late 80’s when it seemed he was playing on everything. Probably was! 
 

Cheers

Last week I decided to delve more deeply into the Southern Rock scene. As well as liking the modern Southern Rock bands, I've always loved the solid grooves from bands like ZZ Top, and Lynryd Skynyrd and I wanted to have a closer look at the bass players who were active in that scene during the 1970's and 80's.

What I found was really interesting and a lot of the bass line were different to what I was expecting. These bassists were playing much more than the classic 8th note grooves that are maybe more commonly associated with Southern Rock.

This is a fun lesson that you don't want to miss and even better if you want to get more familiar with the bass players who established this style of Southern Rock.

Find out more in my latest YouTube lesson. 

Enjoy!

17 hours ago, Maxcat said:

Yeah. Complete accident but does look aesthetically wicked 😀 Your review was what tipped me over the edge Greg. Cheers for that 🤣

Looks awesome! Glad to have been of sone help with the review.
 

I’m loving the pedal. Used it for quite a few different situations now. I usually pick a sound I like and stick to it but this pedal has a few great options that I’m finding I’m using. 

2 hours ago, Maxcat said:

I’m loving the pedal. Cali 76 > DCX Bass > SGTDI >Bassrigs64 > Amp and FOH. The ability to get 4 different combinations out of the Ampeg is so useful and then to feed the 64 if needed is huge. We play a variety of Punk Britpop and Mod stuff and it’s all covered. Classic Rock, Blues and anything heavy is also nailed. It maybe not quite as accomplished an SVT clone as the OE Super Vintage but being able to change on the fly is invaluable.

Great to see your pedalboard, even nicer to see the metal and black design to the whole board 👌😀

After note choices, the single most important factor to help you develop your own personal playing style is how you articulate your notes. Articulation simply put is the attack and length of your notes.

If you listen to some of your favourite bass players closely you'll notice that each one has a unique way of articulating their bass lines. This characterises their own style, often defining that player.

Some players clip their notes short, some play longer notes with less attack and others have unique ways of plucking the strings.

Bernard Edwards from Chic played with what has become knows as the 'clucking' technique where he used his fingers like a pick. You don't have to use this chucking technique but what is important to take away from players like Bernard Edwards is the shortened, more funky notes that they produced. 

In my latest YouTube lesson I discuss articulation in more detail and use the Sister Sledge tune, 'Lost In Music' to help illustrate the important of articulation.

Check out the lesson and you can also get a free copy of the Lost In Music bass line under the video. 

Moondance by Van Morrison is such a classic that you're bound to get asked to play it at some point. I must have played it 100's of times live and I haven't played the same bass line once!

The original bass line is one long improvisation and for this reason you don't really need to try and learn it note for note. I did transcribe the whole bass line this week though so I could analyse it and I learnt some interesting things about it that I hadn't noticed before.

This week I've made more of a 'bass line deconstruction video' for Moondance because this way I can show you how to go away and improvise your own bass line which will fit with the song and which frees you up to be more creative.

There are some key musical ideas and scales that the bass player, John Klingberg utilises and once you know these, you can use them yourself to pick out notes that will sound great when playing Moondance.

Find out more in my latest YouTube video and download free free PDF transcription. 

Arpeggios contain the building blocks for bass players. We can use the chord tones (the notes of the arpeggio) to create walking bass lines. These chord tones outline the chord and that's our job as bass players for the rest of the band particularly when playing Jazz.

There are five essential 7th arpeggios that you need to know if you want to play Jazz bass. Once you known their fretboard shapes, you can transfer them to start on any root note.

The names of these 7th arpeggios like, 'maj7' or 'dominant 7' can cause confusion so I've made a lesson to clear this up and to lay out all the five arpeggios.

Find out more in my latest Youtube lesson. There is a free downloadable PDF cheatsheet with all five 7th arpeggios on it. Link under video. 

https://youtu.be/NpzqREyp0MI

If you've ever played a Jazz tune at a jam or a gig then you're probably aware of what a '2-feel' is. If not, and you want to play Jazz bass then you have to know how to play a 2-feel and more importantly, how to make it swing.

This is one of the most overlooked areas of Jazz bass playing, often overshadowed by a focus on learning walking bass. But when you hear the masters bassists like Ron Carter or Ray Brown play Jazz bass, you'll notice them playing 2-feels that compliment the band and that really swing hard!

The 2-feel comprises of two notes per bar instead of the usual four notes that you find in walking bass lines and is often used at the beginning and end of Jazz tunes. If you're a budding Jazz bass player then you have to master the 2-feel and I've laid it all out in my latest YouTube video.

Find out my 5 tips to make your 2-feel swing and also a step-by-step guide on how to lock in with the rest of the rhythm section by clicking below.