SumOne

@bass_dinger you've inspired me to do ABRSM grades....well, at least to have an introductory lesson with a local teacher that is in a great local Jazz/Funk band. I played a bit when I was young (Grade 1) and then have aimlessly played on and off as an adult and not improved much and have probably have picked up some bad habbits. I think some lessons and a formal structure and clear goals will hopefully help. My target is to pass Grade 1 within a few months (as it was so long ago I did it I think it'd be worth doing again) and Grade 2 by the end of 2026. That might be a bit ambitious but is hopefully about the right level of challenge to keep me on my toes and keep me motivated. In my mind right now the longer-term ambition is Grade 3 by end of 2027, Grade 4 by end of 2028, Grade 5 in 2029 (when I turn 50), that'd do me as far as formal learning is concerned - a good level to impressively play pub band type stuff, (I do already play keys in pub band stuff, but I'm just getting away with bashing simple ska/reggae offbeat chords in time, ideally I'd like to bust out the occasional fancy solo).

I'm not certain, but I think you'll be fine along with the Behringer interface as the ES-60 can send out audio (not via USB) to the Behringer and the YouTube audio can also go into the Behringer and get mixed and you listen to both from its output, and the ES-60 can send out midi via USB to the EMU. With a keyboard that has a inbuilt interface with USB audio in and out and USB midi you could potentially do that stuff without the Behringer.

Looking into it a bit more, it seems I was spoilt with the CK-61 as the USB to Host thing isn't even on some high-end keyboards. I don't think Nords do it. It also seems to be a half omission with the Viscount Legend One that has built in audio interface that can send midi out via USB and can receive audio in via USB but cannot send audio out via USB: "USB to host port for transmitting MIDI data to apps on a pc, tablet or phone, which ALSO transmits audio, BUT: it only transmits audio in ONE direction (INTO the keyboard). I have NEVER seen THIS before; any other keyboard that has an audio interface built into the USB port will send audio in BOTH directions. So what does this mean? It means you only get HALF the benefit of a built in audio interface; and that is if you are using the Legend One’s keybed to trigger sounds on a MIDI app on a device. The sounds generated by that app will come straight back into the Legend one (and out of the Legend One’s outputs) without any lag which is really cool. And, you can also use this connection to stream audio into the keyboard as an alternative to the 1/8″ analog in port. The feature you’re missing though, is the ability to send high quality audio FROM the Legend One TO a device to record audio in a DAW, or for making high quality piano videos by connecting the keyboard directly to your phone; to do those things, you WILL need to connect your L&R audio outputs to an external audio interface like a Focusrite Scarlett (which then converts that audio to digital audio to send to your device)" https://pianotone.ca/viscount-legend-one-review/ .....that seems odd and I think it has more potential uses than they mention, it'd be needed to solve the issue I've had using Simply Piano type apps via headphones, and I think it'd also be useful for using an iPad/Laptop to live process the actual sounds coming out of the Legend e.g. iPad to receive the Legend One sound via USB and process the audio to add an effect then send it back to the Legend One via USB to then go from the Legend One audio outputs. Also useful for unexpected recording parts direct to phone (e.g. during a rehearsal) that would only need the correct USB cables rather than also needing an external USB audio interface. It isn't a deal breaker for me as I have an external interface but it is strange that the Legend One has a USB audio interface built-in but doesn't have that USB audio out feature. It would be useful and like the reviewer says they've never seen anything do this half-thing, so fingers crossed a it isn't a hardware limitation or a deliberate choice and a software update might sort it. The keyboard was launched less than a year ago and has had some worthwhile software updates since then so I've written to Viscount to see if they will be doing another software update to solve this.

And perhaps a bit unfair of me to want that from a £300 keyboard as it seems only more expensive ones that have it (seems I took it for granted with the CK-61!). Still though, it would be useful with the way a lot of people learn nowadays and play along to apps. Or even to just have an 'aux in' or bluetooth in would allow playing with other music - not a big deal if playing out loud as can just put a speaker nearby playing backing stuff, but via headphones it is an issue (and that still wouldn't do the silent 'Simply Piano' type apps that require audio out/back and midi for silent practise). Personally, I see it a bit like getting a cheap car - it must have essentials to work as a car and a good cheap car will also be reliable and reasonably practicle, you don't expect to have heated seats as they are a luxury that would add unnecessary cost. But then there are things that are not essential for a car to work but are pretty much considered a 'must have' as they are useful and don't really add much cost, e.g. a heater. Sure, you can work around it and wear more clothes, and some people only live in hot places and will never need it, but it's the expectation now for even the cheapest cars to include. I'd say at a minimum, a Keyboard should have an aux in, and I'm not sure a USB to host should really be considered a luxury with modern needs/technology. The solution with the ES-60 I have for backing tracks through headphones is to add a USB interface (I have a Universal Audio Volt 2), send the audio from ES-60 to Volt via audio jacks, the Volt converts it digitally and sends it to the iPad or Laptop etc which can send it back to the Volt along with the backing track it's running and I can then plug headphones into the Volt and hear both. As the iPad only has a single USB slot I now also need a USB hub (I'll get the one you mentioned) to also send a cable of USB midi out from the ES-60 to the iPad - so it can recognise the notes being played silently (otherwise it usually works with the mic to detect what's being played loud). It's something to look out for for anyone wanting that functionality as they'll need to spend an extra £100 for an audio interface (and cables) and iPad USB hub...so perhaps stuff like a £525 Roland FP-30X which has USB audio and midi connectivity (and also includes Bluetooth) starts looking a bit more tempting vs the £300 Kawai ES-60 + £100 + faff. You mostly get what you pay for.

It's not a deal-breaker for me, I'll be keeping it - but that's partly as when I practise via headphones I don't mind just playing to sheet music and a metronome, and when the kids practise they play out loud and with the iPad audio turned up or can add a separate Bluetooth speaker playing backing tracks. If I can be bothered with the setup for headphone practise with backing tracks then I already have things like a USB interface and mixing desk if needed. I could see it being a deal breaker for other people though seeing as a key target audience is people practising at home - lots will want to use apps like Flowkey and Simply Piano and that would requires the audio to go both out and back in via USB to listen on the ES-60 which isn't possible without it having an interface, or many will just want to practice with headphones on and be able to play along to backing tracks via an aux in or bluetooth which isn't possible either. There are possible workarounds but they are a faff and costly for most of the target audience e.g. Connect an external audio interface, or a mixer, and could get an iPad hub which would hopefully allow midi to go in via USB for the apps to recognise playing and for the audio to also go in from the ES-60 and then back out along with iPad backing tracks to a USB audio interface with the headphones attached, quite a faff. On the CK-61 it was just a case of plug the USB into the iPad .

I've found that Compression is something that really needs to be tested with your playing style and other equipment as there are so many variables, and it doesn't communicate well with stuff like Youtube reviews as a big part is about how it feels. My recommendation would be to push the boat out and buy quite a lot of them second hand from here connect them all together and do direct testing one after the other (best to do this when playing with the band at gig volume if possible) their resale value should be pretty much what you bought them for so it shouldn't necessarily cost much in the long-run. But then again, I enjoy faffing about with pedals and perhaps it isn't everyone's cuppa (not least my bandmates!). Saying that though, my favorites have been: Cali 76 Bass Compact, Empress Bass Compressor, FEA Opti-FET. The SA Atlas I thought was good but let down by the hardware a bit for live gig adjustments, Markbass Compressore is good but I was put-off by the size and different power supply needed, I didn't get on witht he MXR M87 (felt it needed a HPF or clean blend), EarthQuaker 'The Warden' I felt overly compressed the initial note, and the Pigtronix Philosophers Tone just wasn't for me - very useful if you want to add sustain though. I've probably tried others but I guess they were more forgettable. I was to buy another compressor it'd probably be the Empress agian, but that's partly as I want to also use it for non-Bass stuff and nerd about with the side-chain insert.

I had a quick go on a Viscount Legend 88 key version and heard a friend gig with it. It looks great and sounds great, I think the modular aspect would be addicitve. ....but that geatness does come at a quite considerable £, and size/weight. It is a big beast, 133 x 47 x 14cm and weighs about 20kg, things that are definitely worth considering for something I'd often move about (e.g. it was a three person job to take the legs off - one each end to hold it up and one to unscrew them), no way I'd want to deal with that for a weekly rehearsal and it would dominate the average small pub size stage area I play on. Still, I guess it is a lot more transportable than an original 70s EP. That size/weight is similar enough to other 88 stage piano alternatives though: Roland Fantom 08: 139 x 35 x 14cm. 15 kg. Yamaha YC88: 130 × 36 × 14 cm, 18.6kg, so it confirmed to me that whatever stage piano I get I'll limit to 73 keys, that seems the best compromise for my use as 61 keys felt a bit too limited - especifally if using it as the only keyboard and doing split key stuff (61 would be fine as a second keyboard, but that's a level of stuff I'm not gonna even start considering!). Some of the main 73 stage piano contenders portability (L x D x H) : Nord Electro 6D 73: 106 x 30 x 10. 9.2 kg Studiologic Numa X: 105 x 31 x 12. 11.7 kg Viscount Legend One: 109 x 33 x 11. 11.5kg Roland VR-730: 121 x 37 x 12. 9.9kg. ......so the Nord wins on portability but there isn't a much in it between them (although that unnecessary extra length of the VR-730 would annoy me - so kind-of is a deal-breaker). I can live with the Legend One being very slightly bigger than the Nord (seeing as it gets a pitch bend), and a couple kg heavier seeing as it has a wood and metal chasis.

Nice one, that should solve it. Still though, it's a bit of a omission for the ES-60 as far as I'm concerned to not have audio interface (or aux in, or bluetooth). I know it is on the budget end of things so compromises are needed but these features are important for that sort of beginner home piano players market, and increasingly there are the learning apps so you ideally need to be able to both send midi/audio via USB and receive it back to the piano for headphone listening. The solution seems to be to get a hub and an interface which is about £100 and a faff. It goes to show that there's almost always a trade-off for cost vs functions, no such thing as a free lunch! They've managed to make a 88 key keyboard with a good keybed and decent enough sounds for £300 but that is pretty much where the functionality stops. To add somethig quite basic like Bluetooth for backing tracks means ES-120 at £525, and something with a full USB interface for stuff like sound both back and forth with iPad/Laptop software is usually another step-up in cost.

I've had a couple of days with the Kawai ES-60 and am impressed, especially when considering the cost. Decent sounds, keybed, speakers, built quility. I think this review is very accurate. Something it should have though is a USB sound interface given that the main market is home practising and the popularity of apps like Simply Piano and Flowkey I think it's a big omission. e.g. I could plug the CK-61 into the iPad via USB to send midi, the Simply Piano app would then send both the backing track and piano audio back to the CK-61 where headphones can be connected for quiet practice. That's not possible with the ES-60: Can send midi via USB to the ipad but the backing track audio doesn't get sent back - and as ipads are annoying and don't have headphone outputs (the only in/out is the USB being used for midi) you can't get the audio all on playing together on one device. I added a USB interface and sent the line out from the keyboard to it and ipad USB out to the interface - that works to hear what is being played on keys and the backing track but it means there's no way of getting the midi into the ipad and if you are playing with headphones that means the app can't hear you.

That's a good take on it. I suppose there are those chord playing 6 string bass jazz types, and guitarists that have been forced to play bass so try and play as many notes as quickly as possible to show skill, and the sort of virtuoso fast playing that gets YouTube clips. They might might all have a different take on it.... But for any band I've been in it's much more about timing and using notes relatively sparingly, building the solid foundation rather than the facade.

Chainska Brassika, supported by Bob Rats in Southampton. They were both very good. Bob Rats: VID20251205203834.mp4

Yeah, it would be great to try them out side by side. Andertons are the nearest shop to me (about 1hr away) that sell the Nord and Numa so I might go on a road trip. As far as I can tell there is only a single Viscont Legend One for sale in the UK (Gear4Music have one in stock, but their shop in York with is a >12hr round trip from Chichester) so I think it'll need to be an online purchase (in which case Thomann are cheaper) if that's what I go for and prepare to use the return policy. I tried the MIDI thing via an M-Audio keyboard (which I've since sold) but it turned into a bit of a liability live. There was latency but odly it was only occasional, I'd optimise everything on the Laptop, ASIO , Airplane mode, close all other programmes etc. and use it exclusively for music but it still seemed to have a mind of it's own at the most crucial moments (perhaps due to the keyboard, interface, software plugins, DAW, Laptop processing power or RAM....I dunno what the cause was - a lot of variables and potential points of failure felt part of the issue. I then got a good gaming Laptop (still Windows not Mac) and UA Volt interface and that seemed to work well at home, but almost every time I turn it on some sort of software needs updating and that makes me nervous, and things like Organ drawbars and effect knobs being mapped differently to different presets with nothing on the Keyboard clearly indicating what's happening seems potentially confusing without looking at the Laptop screen which I'd rather not do live, and just the live practicalities of where to put the Laptop and interface and relying on USB cables etc just seems a bit of a faff and liability. But yeah, in theory I can see that a decent MIDI keyboard and Laptop gives almost unlimited sound options and upgrades and I am sure it works well for lots of people and probably is the future, perhaps I should give it another chance, I think having a good dedicated Macbook would probably be needed to be more certain of reliability and low latency.

My Yamaha CK-61 sold last night so I now have £ burning a hole in my pocket! ....well, not much £ as it has funded a Kawai ES-60 that's on the way from Thomann, I think that'll do well for home use (which includes taking abuse from young kids so I didn't want anything I'd be too precious about). It leaves me the start of a stage piano fund and I've had some offers for my Akai Key 37 so that'll increase the fund once it sells. So now I'm seriously hyped about what stage piano to get! It'll need to be 73....and even that size is pushing it as I need to take it to weekly rehearsals and fortnightly gigs along with all my Bass gear (there's a bit of swopping around of band members duties depending on songs) in a small car (VW Polo, which often also has a guitarist and all their stuff) and stage space is usually tight. Depending on how much I can convince myself is worth spending, the main contenders are now: £2k: Nord Electro 73 semi-weighted would be the Nord for me due to size, toughness, sounds, drawbars, price (vs the Stage), resale value (£2k is stretching my budget, but the resale after 10 years is roughly £1,500 so I'm counting it almost like a loan plan - my maths is it'll be £50 per year for 10 years, the painful initial £2k is actually a £1.5k refundable deposit!). The v7 seems overdue so I'd wait for that though - either to get new or for the older second-hand versions to get cheaper. £1.5k: Viscount Legend One 73 is a decent size and weight, sounds good, good keybed (a knowledgeable online reviewer guesses it has Fatar TP-8), Organ drawbars (and lots of them!). All reviews seem to rate it highly - some a bit less so for the non-organ sounds but what I've heard all sound good to me. Perhaps it's just smoke and mirrors to make a modern thing look/feel/sound vintage gives me the impression of being something that'll still be good 30 years from now, keeping things simple and nailing the hardware for live use and the 'bread and butter' Piano/EP/Organ sounds will stand the test of time if expectations remain that It'll just do that particular use. Main negatives are it's a bit niche and new so unlikely to be many second hand for a while and no shops to test it, it's not proven to last for years like the Nords and resale value might not be great. I think I'm pretty much sold on this though, something about it has really grabbed me, it's just a shame that testing it out isn't an option - but I guess return policies are good nowadays. £850. Numa X 73, good keybed for the price, good interface, the sounds haven't blown me away (just from online reviews) the main thing that puts me off are the Organ sounds don't seem great and lack of drawbars. I kind of think this will feel 'okay - it'll do' but will feel a compromise and won't be something I'm really pleased to keep for many years, it probably isn't much of an upgrade to the Yamaha CK-61 I've just sold other than the extra octave and better keybed. I've tried the Roland and Yamaha options in their showrooms and none in my price range really did it for me. The Yamaha YC 73 has slightly narrower octave width which I thought was noticeable on the CK I owned and not ideal, the sounds didn't wow me. The Roland VR-730 didn't feel a bit improvement over the CK-61, and the V Stage 76 is out of my price range, and both seemed massive - almost deliberately made to take up as much space as possible!

Nice one, that's very useful.