zbd1960

I only started playing just before my 60th.... In 1972 I could read music...

19 minutes ago, ezbass said:

Singing well is hard and a proper talent (although it can be learnt if you can hold a tune) and I’ve had the privilege to work with some really top notch vocalists, one of whom will have graced your TV screens at various big events. Average singers are ten a penny, however, whilst bad singers are even more prevalent. I’ve observed that their talent is normally in inverse proportion to how good they think they are.

Agree with you. I think I'm a competent choral singer, but I never do solo as I don't think I'm good enough. 

I posted in the thread about the questionable singer... and said I'd post more about the gig I had a few years ago. 

I used to play in an amateur orchestra in the Midlands. A well-known nightclub brand wanted to do an orchestral concert version of 90s/00s dance music. Now this is well outside of the comfort zone of your typical amateur orchestra and it required a lot of preparation, with months of rehearsals.

First, the conductor had to engage an orchestrator to arrange the music for our forces, which were going to be augmented to make us a 60 piece orchestra (we're about 40 usually), which meant paid deps. In addition we needed a 5 piece horn section, a band (synths, guitars, bass, drum kit), gospel choir...

So that the orchestra could rehearse, the orchestrator created a playable file with click track for rehearsals. The music was arranged as two continuous 1 hour sets.

We spent months rehearsing. The last three rehearsals were with the extra players and the gospel choir. The final rehearsal was with the 4 vocal soloists. These are I believe 'well-known' performers of this music. Two were decent, two seemed to be more ego than ability.

The gig was a sell out in a major concert hall (2,200). In addition to the musicians, there was a whole light and effects show, aerialists, dancers...

The conductor had issues with one of the singers in the rehearsal. The singer didn't seem to understand that when you have about 80 musicians playing from a score, there is no way of looping back because you missed your entry. Trouble is he got lost in the performance as well and the conductor ended up making huge extravagant gestures and singing his part to cue the twit. The other singers were at least in the right place, although tuning was definitely a novelty for some of them.

I have sung in choirs and performed in hundreds of concerts over the years. If we sang that badly we'd be embarrassed and we'd never hear the end of it.      

hmmm... OK it's not a genre I normally sing (I'm a classical guy) but I have a lot of experience as a singer and I've had a lot of singing lessons. Basically, the guy does not know how to sing - end of story. 

Well done for getting him through it. Trouble is he'll probably think he can wing it next time as well.

An orchestra I used to play in did a 90s/00s dance music gig - I'll put a more detailed post in my thread - but long story short: the 'name' artist didn't have a clue about how to sing with an orchestra. He was obviously used to being carried by the gig band. You cannot do that with 60 piece symphony orchestra. He didn't even know where to come in with his own songs...  

Oops... I posted this in the wrong thread...

OK - very long day today of sight reading as I was playing cello in an all day workshop near Malvern. The work was Mahler Symphony #5. It needs a big orchestra e.g. 6 horns, 4 trumpets 4 trombones...

I've attached a PDF of the cello part... Where there are multiple staves, it's because the cellos have to split. Usually the 'outside' player takes the top, and 'inside' the lower. 

Cellos - Symphony No.5 (Mahler).pdf

On 26/08/2022 at 21:05, eude said:

Small world then!

I think your right, are those a little more fancy?

Did you know he was originally a bass player? He had a wonderful fretless P Bass, it had been refinished, but was lovely.

He helped me build a 6 string fretless bass.

The musical world is small, and the early music world even smaller... I used ot go to early music summer schools and he'd often come along with a set of viols for people to play. 

Renaissance viols come in different shapes and pitches. The baroque viols from 1600s settled into a more standard shape and tunings. 

This is what Richard makes

This is an original Henry Jaye viol

This is a modern copy of a Jaye viol form 1624

2 minutes ago, eude said:

Who made your Viol?

I used to know a guy who made them a while back, a Richard Jones. He'll be a good age by now, he was a really nice, talented bloke.

Mine's a Czech instrument - nothing special. I've met Richard and played some of his viols - he mostly makes Renaissance ones rather than Baroque I think? You'd struggle to commission a tenor viol for less than £6k

8 hours ago, TheGreek said:

The shape isn't my cappuccino but the materials are beautiful. 

Good call.

The shape is reminiscent of a viola da gamba, which is what attracted me to it. My own tenor viol is rather more prosaic and commissioning a bass is a lot cheaper than a viol. 

I've done the odd sax workshop where there's been an expectation of some improv and i'm not much good at it - purely because it's not something I do on a regular basis. It's another skill that can be learnt

5 minutes ago, Richard R said:

 

Think of it like learning to read words. As a four year old you could express most of what you wanted verbally, but learning to read and write came afterwards. As you got older you could express more complex ideas verbally and your reading and writing hopefully kept improving until well into your teens. 

 

I suspect that the reason we think of music differently is becuase of the classical world's emphasis on being able to sight-read and play what someone else has scored. So reading has to come before "speaking".

 

(As an aside, a superb classical musician I know, who can play anything but struggles to improvise, described the classical training as " being programmed like an unthinking machine to make noises based on the dots. Frankly computers and synthesisers can do it better now". I think he's being harsh on himself, but I get the point)

 

Some classical musicians do improvise, it's just that in many of the genres they play, it is not a requirement. For example, organists are trained to improvise from day 1 and it's a fundamental part of getting your ARCO or FRCO (Associate/Fellow of Royal College of Organists). Baroque soloists are also expected to improvise, but it's mostly decorative improvisation. The cadenzas in classical concertos were originally improvised, and some players do, but often they learn a cadenza created by another soloist from the past.  

I've seen several posts here about the difficulties of reading music and of sight-reading. 

As adults we tend to think we can do things 'straight away' once we've had something explained. This is generally not a realistic position. It's certainly not true of playing an instrument. Reading notation is akin to learning to read, only it's less complex as there are fewer symbols to learn: there are only 7 note names (A to G).

What frustrates many adult learners is that their reading ability is out-of-step with their playing ability. That is purely down to practice. You don't go from Enid Blyton to Tolstoy quickly when learning to read and music is no different.

Sight-reading is similar - you have to do it to improve and you have to start with simpler pieces. When I was in my 30s and I started singing lessons (never having sung a note, nor at that stage having really played an instrument). Each week my teacher would stick some random thing in front of me and say 'sing that'. He was making me sight read. At first it was hopeless/impossible. Over time you recognise intervals and you find you're doing it. You do more complex pieces, you get better at it.

To improve sight reading you have to do it. My summer school last week was filled with sight reading since most pieces I'd never played before.

Something I've suggested to others in the past is go to IMSLP.ORG and download something like a cello / bass / bassoon part (e.g. a concerto grosso by Handel) and use it to work on both reading bass and sight reading. The most important thing with sight reading is staying in time - wrong notes don't matter, but staying in rhythm does.

13 hours ago, Nail Soup said:

One thing that does my head in about reading is the key signatures.

Once I worked out that all the sharps and flats are there only once at the beginning it was a 'this is not for me' moment.

 

 

That's a weird paper saving device used by lead sheets - that's not how standard notation works, which puts the key signature on every line. First time I encountered a lead sheet that confused me 

16 hours ago, BigRedX said:

The poll should make the distinction between being able to read music and being able to sight read music, because they IME are two entirely different things.

 

I can read music in that I know where all the notes are on the bass and treble clefs and what the note lengths are and what the common symbols mean (and I know where to look them up if I come across something I don't recognise). However I couldn't sit down and play from a sheet of musical notation.

 

This might be something to do with the fact that I am mildly dyslexic. I couldn't sight read from tab either, and anything other than the simplest guitar chord sheets will leave me struggling. The only way I can play anything that doesn't involve improvisation is to completely commit it to memory. I can't even use a crib sheet because it would take too long for me to find my place should I forget what I was supposed to be playing.

 

TBH the only time in 45+ years of playing, I have needed the ability to be able to read or write music was in the mid 80s when registering songs with the PRS require you to supply write notation for the vocal melody and any other notable musical themes. Myself and the the other synth player in my band of that time divided up the songs between us and spent a couple of months preparing the sheets and checking each other's work before sending them off to the PRS.

 

Since then no-one in any band I have been in has supplied me with written musical notation to play from, or asked that I should do the same for them.

I believe music teachers use coloured overlay sheets to help people with dyslexia read music - I know no more than that, but might be useful?

I've played medleys in various orchestras and even simplified versions are tough! I know people who've played the Symphonic Dances which Bernstein himself arranged and they are said to be some of the toughest stuff out there, especially for rhythm 

Yes, and because of the instruments I play, I can read all four standard clefs (bass, tenor, alto, and treble). Last week I did a lot of sight-reading at summer school for both cello and baritone sax. I taught myself and passed grade 6 music theory - when I get a chance I'll do 7 and 8. 

A feature of most basses it seems when you buy them is that they come with a little packet of bits and pieces to help make adjustments, like the Allen keys necessary to adjust bridge saddles etc. Cellos and saxes do not have these luxuries... and last week at summer school that proved to be an issue.

Saxophones are real Heath-Robinson beasts, although they have evolved and improved since their invention in the C19th by Adolphe Sax, they are still mechanically complex and have inherent tuning issues arising from the laws of physics.

The woodwind instrument equivalent of 'action' is 'regulation'. Saxes have an assortment of mechanical contrivances to control the opening and closing of cup keys. Give a sax a stern look and it can go out of regulation. There are needle springs , levers, rods in the mix. Some of the springs hold things open, others hold things closed. There is an art to balancing the strength of the springs. If you get air leaks caused by pads on cup keys not seating properly, strange things can happen.

To give you an idea of just ONE thing these have to do: to play in the second octave, you have to depress the octave key. This opens a valve on the body and it's engaged by rolling the tip of your left thumb when you reach D on the 4th line of the treble clef. However, when you get up to A, the body octave valve is closed and a second one on the neck is opened. If you come down from A, then the opposite happens... this happens automatically through a complex arrangement of levers.

Anyway, I was in wind ensemble on Wednesday after lunch and suddenly there was either no sound coming out of the baritone or weird noises. I played down GFED in lower octave and sound generally went up, sometimes by a 12th or more. Going up, some notes went down... There was a great deal of whistling and parping...

It was obviously leaking all over the shop. One obvious things was the little 'see-saw' that controls the octave mechanism wasn't working, but there were other issues as well.

The needle springs all seemed to be hooked on and seated. The big band tutor was sitting in on clarinet and she came over and agreed something was loose... The conductor of the group is an oboist and she spotted it - one of the screws that goes into one of the control rods was proud by about 3mm, it had obviously been working its way out and the control rod was loose meaning various key cups were not seating properly... that rod had three major key cups attached to it.

The solution was a jeweller's screwdriver, which I didn't have (I used to carry bits around but had got out of the habit). Fortunately, the oboist in the group had some stuff and we tightened it (oboists and bassonist always have a comprehensive kit of tools and assorted bit and pieces).

Once tightened, all was fine. Just as well as the big band recital was later that evening... 

Lesson learnt. I am putting together the tools that need to be in music case. I get issues with the cello's end-pin getting stuck as well. So, a set of various types of small pliers, an assortment of small screwdrivers, some tweezers have been acquired. I just need to add a crochet hook (used to hook needle springs back on), some felt, and some blu-tac... 

20 hours ago, EJWW said:

Thanks for posting this, I've enjoyed reading about your musical journey. I would love to be able to immerse myself in deepening my musical knowledge and experience the way you have but personal commitments prevent me from doing so at the moment. 

 

Dare I ask... what basses you own? 

Somehow I've gone from zero to 5 quite quickly: Fender jazz; Sire Marcus Miller 5 string, Spector 6 string, ACG Krell 32/4, Manton Custom Titan 32/6...

Last week was a busy week at music summer school. I mostly played cello and bari sax, but the Krell had an outing. I've been to many music summer schools of different types over the last 25 years or so. This year's one is one where you sign-up for an assortment of activities rather than say just orchestra or wind band.

There are multiple options you can choose for each of the six sessions each day, although some like chamber orchestra are double sessions which means you do 5 options. There are quite a few options to choose from ranging from solo and sight singing, to folk music, trad and modern jazz, chamber music etc. My options were: chamber music, string orchestra, wind ensemble, chamber orchestra, and big band. I did an optional early morning session playing bass rehearsing the ceilidh band (which played for one of the evenings later in the week).

You get challenged by a week like that, partly because it's immersive and partly the tutors are pushing you and you're doing things you might not otherwise consider (e.g. on cello I played movements from the Mendelssohn octet and Haydn's Lark quartet).

They are quite sociable as well as there's usually a bar for the evening. Unfortunately for me this year, I was not resident on site so a pinto or two was not an option.

There are lots of these kinds of things covering every genre and type of music. If like me you live on your own, they are a good option.     

OK gig updates...

Bass wasn't my main instrument of the week - I played mostly cello and some baritone sax. 

With the sax there were two performances at the end of the week. I played in a big band, which wasn't full size, made up of clarinet, trumpet, 2 tenor saxes, me on bari sax, bass and rhythm guitars, keys, and drum kit. We did a 30 minute set of a mix of stuff including  Green Onions (something like this, La Bamba etc

We played in the room that was set-up with the bar, rather than the main hall, so it meant people were dancing...

The other bari performance was wind ensemble, where I was a substitute bassoon..., playing more classical repertoire. 

For string orchestra performance, I was the concertante cellist (soloist) in a concerto grosso by Stanley, plus 'Elegy' by Elgar.

For orchestra, the main work was Haydn symphony 104: the first movement has a slow start then sets off...
 

On 17/08/2022 at 19:43, Obrienp said:

Know what you mean about the speed in ceilidh music. I dept in ceilidh band, primarily on guitar but also some bass. Some of the pieces had three chord changes a bar, which really worked my chord changing speed on guitar. The other  thing is that tempo is often sped up during a dance, so you go from fast to manic and have to hold on for about 10 minutes. 

Tutor said dancers often speed up as the get through a set. I reckon you're looking around 240bpm or more for the quicker ones 

8 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

That's 6 years and 600 posts to do 1 gig? Must be some sort of record. Better late than never!

 

Often you can get clues from what the guitarist is doing with his chording hand.

 

Some guitarist are really adept at 'walking' into the next chord, from playing without a bassist. If you catch on you can come over as a savant for hitting the next 1 bang on. Often they don't even know they are doing it and will tell you you''re the greatest. 

I didn’t do anything for 4 or so years. My thread “non rock n roll bassist” talks about my musical journey. 
 

im primarily a cellist and yesterday I was sight reading Mendelssohn octet - here’s my part

Technically I had my first gig on bass this evening. I'm at a music summer school, mostly playing cello plus some baritone sax. I have brought a 4 string with me and the tce BG250. I though I might play bass in the big band session, but I'm on bari. I joined in with the ceilidh optional session before first session starts in the morning and I've just played for this evening's ceilidh. Harmonically, it's simple stuff. The only music is the 'tunes', some of which will indicate chords simply as say GCD, with the odd Gm or something added. Not many clues and how it is played does not align to standard practice... I mostly stuck to roots and the odd fifth - it's so fast that most of the time that you couldn't do much else. I was accompanying an assortment of flutes, tin whistles, recorders, fiddles. Definitely not rock 'n' roll... 

Overall it went OK despite the novice driving the bass. Some tunes had no chords, so I was doing my best to deduce a chord from the tune.

My main instrument is cello. I've been able to read bass and treble clef notation since I was about 10 or 11. Being a cellist I got used to listening out for the bass line. I did music O Level as an optional subject at school. I didn't do much until my mid 30s when I started singing lessons and ended up singing baritone (upper bass) in various choirs. Cello means I have to read bass, tenor and treble clefs. I then started learning to play the viola da gamba (viol) which is a renaissance/baroque instrument. For bass, you need bass and alto clef, and the tenor uses alto clef and treble. In 2011 I started to learn alto sax and bought a cello and picked it up after a 35 year gap. I put myself through grade 6 theory.

So, when I picked up bass not so long ago, I could already read bass clef fluently and I've got more than enough music theory...   

Hmmm... feel that musique concrète isn't out of place... This one gets going just under a minute in: