Manton Customs

12 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Yes there's a difference, but to my ears it is so slight that its pretty much irrelevant although, it is a bit more pronounced on the slap sounds. And in the context of a band mix (which is where it really counts) I doubt anyone would be able to tell the two apart on any of the playing styles.

And then there is the problem with the methodology of your test.

1. There are just two many variables in the construction of solid electric instruments. Every bit of wood is different. Even if the woods used in both instruments are the same species for each part, there will be differences between them, and that's before we even think about the differences in where and how they are joined. And what about the electronic components? Unless you are specifying very close tolerance items there will be at best a ±10% tolerance for every single component in the signal chain. How similar are the pickups in terms of resistance? Did you even measure them?

2. Then there's a sample size. I'm sorry but two instruments simply isn't enough. If you had 100 identical instruments (or as close as possible given point 1), 50 with Rosewood boards and 50 with ebony boards and you got constant difference between the two types and the overlap in between each type was negligible (i.e. the darkest of the brighter sounding wood was still brighter than the brightest of the darker sounding wood) then I might be able to start taking this tone wood stuff seriously when it comes to solid electric instruments.

3. And finally there is tester's bias. I'm sure you didn't mean to do it, but unless you were blindfolded and didn't know which bass was which, there will have been some variation in your playing style as you unconsciously tried to bring out the sonic characteristics you were expecting form each bass.

And all this is why I think that trying to isolate the sonic characteristics imparted to a solid electric instrument by a single component is a fools errand. There are two many other variables that can't be ignored. And then you need to address the sample size of the tested instruments and get a consistency of result, for any of this to have any proper meaning.

To me each instrument is the sum of all its various parts and you can break it down and sign a single characteristic to a single one of any of those parts. I treat each bass (or guitar) as a whole. And either as a whole it works or doesn't for me. And TBH from my PoV unless there is something very wrong with the instrument it will be possible to get a good usable sound out of it with a slight modification of my playing technique and EQ and effects settings that will result in a suitable bass sound for whatever song I am playing.

 

BTW I didn't vote, because there wasn't an option for I could tell a difference between the examples but it didn't matter which was which, and I'd pick the bass that looked the best to me.

For further clarification-

1, I largely agree, I’m not trying to prove anything once and for all, challenge anyone or change anyone’s mind, just provide a possibly interesting soundclip for discussion. I can say though that all pieces of wood (minus the fretboards) were cut from the same boards for both basses though. Both bodies are 1 piece, so there are only two joints - the bolt on neck joint which was milled to the exact same tolerances and the fingerboard (which you’d have to be a complete hack to get any kind of void in). So they are really as close as you can practically get with two basses. And yes I did take a reading of the pickups and have the figures written down (will provide them later)

2,  Yes, but it’d be fairly impractical to record and analyse 50 basses, I was simply working with what I had on hand.

3, Yep, there will be a personal bias, I did mention the human element in the original post. As for expecting any certain results - I went into it as open minded as I could and I’m not going to disclose my thoughts on the “tonewood” subject at this time.

I believe this thread can still be interesting in a number of ways without proving or dispelling anything for certain. As said at the beginning the poll is a bit of fun.

They were recorded in WAV, but I can’t help what soundcloud might do to it afterwards.

This subject comes up fairly often, but it’s not very often that people actually get to compare two (damn near) identical basses back to back. So, I thought I would put this sound clip up. Both basses are the same, except for the fretboard wood. They both have the same hardware, pickup, body/neck woods, setup and they both have the same strings. Both basses were recorded the same way and I did my best to play consistently (but there will always be a human element).

To ensure we are not ‘hearing with our eyes’ I’m not going to reveal which one is which until the threads been open a sufficient period. There’s a poll too, but that’s more of a bit of fun as there’s a 50/50 chance of being right even if you just guess blindly (deafly!?).

In the soundclip each bass is separated by the clicks counting in, whenever you hear those clicks the bass is switched. So the options are -

Rosewood, Ebony, Rosewood, Ebony

Ebony, Rosewood, Ebony, Rosewood

Or a third option- I can hear no difference

Have fun!

12 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

So, what do you do when a LED burns... Deglue the whole fretboard ? I had a bass where it happened and not a cheap one...

What I was saying is there are compromises with both if you're installing yourself and there's only so big you could go with fibres. The original poster is asking about installation so I thought I'd chime in with my personal experience of doing just that.

Removing the fretboard to replace a burnt out LED would definitely suck but it's not impossible either. They do tend to last a very long time also.

Ive also heard of people cracking fibres when removing the neck on a bolt on bass too. Which would be just as bad as a burnt out LED.

Anyway...my preference is luminlay :p. Obviously not the same effect as either but does the job on a dark stage.

I've done the fibre optic thing and not sure I would do it again. They're a pain to work with and they have to be really quite small to bend enough to get them in place. It's also quite a big bunch of fibres compared to the wires of an LED chain. It does have the benefit of not having to worry about the bulb going though. 

Theres a tutorial for both LEDs and fibre optics over on talkbass.

You can test the finish using Acetone - put a small bit of Acetone on the end of a cotton bud or tissue and wipe it on an inconspicuous area (i.e an area where it wouldn't matter if it melted the finish). If it melts/has an obvious effect, then the finish is Nitro.

Generally speaking spraying poly over Nitro is not a good idea. Nitro will out gas and shrink for a long time after sprayed. It never really cures like poly does as Nitro can always be dissolved.

So that could well be your problem. What poly are you using?

Moving forward I'd suggest cleaning as throughly as you can then a light coat of shellac in between (which sticks to just about anything).

edit: in between=before continting with topcoats.

If it's like I'm visualising it's reasonably common, though a pic would help to confirm. I've seen it on basses and guitars at all prices points (cheapys, Warwicks, US Fenders amongst many others) and it's simply where the wood has moved. Being three different pieces of wood they can all move at different rates and directions. There isn't a fix unfortunately, but it usually doesn't result in anything too disastrous. In extreme cases the wood can burst at the seams, but 9 out of 10 times you just get the lines like your'e seeing now as the wood has already moved to the position it wants to be in. People don't really think of body wood moving/warping, but it's actually quite common.

That being said, if sending it back is an option, I'd definitely do so.

16 minutes ago, converse320 said:

I watched a chap on youtube doing this with cyanoacrylic glue = superglue.  Is this better or worse than the other finishes mentioned?

It's not quite as hard as Epoxy and can be a pain to get a decent finish with it without witness lines appearing where the layers meet. It's also a bit more brittle than Epoxy....Still a hard enough coating to use though.

Can you post pics? Quite a few possibilities of cause and a pic may help identify which one.

The jack is making contact with the shielding, shorting out the signal. Remove the shielding from the jack cavity or make sure the jack can't ever touch it.

Also it's called an output jack

A few things to keep in mind...You've got to have a very true board to get consistent mwah. Otherwise as you bring the action down it'll choke rather than sing. A low action is important also.

Harder materials (such as an epoxied board) will mwah slightly more but you can still get a decent amount on a Rosewood board. There will usually be more on the higher strings though, no matter what the material.

The other thing is your technique. Light finger pressure and plucking closer the neck will give you more mwah.

Yes, Acetone should be fine as long as the headstock isn't Nitro. I believe there was a period in the 70s when Fender were finishing their necks in Poly but using Nitro over the decal as it was more compatible with the decal than the poly at the time. Not entirely sure when that stopped but as yours is late 70s, it's probably just poly. Regardless though, as you said go carefully....start in an inconspicuous area with a tiny bit of acetone and see how it goes.

It'll most likely be the relief that has changed a little bit. Take a little bit out and see if it improves things.

This happens on zero fret equipped basses when the zero fret is not higher than the rest. It's widely debated whether or not it should be higher, but in my experience it definitely should be. As if it's the same height as the first fret, it makes open strings very susceptible to buzz when the neck is straight.

When performing fretwork on instruments with zero frets, I like to level all frets except the zero fret. This gives that tiny extra bit of clearance whilst still keeping the same wire. 

35 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

Yes. I think raising the whole neck slightly would be the way to go. As you like the way it plays, it sounds as if the neck angle is good and you just want to lower the action overall. Shimming one end of the neck will alter its angle by canting it back, so you'll lower the action at the top end, but you'll have to adjust the nut to take care of the low end. I'd experiment with varying thicknesses of card (don't glue them in place so you can change them) and then get a piece of veneer in the thickness that works best.

Adding a shim does not require anything to be done to the nut, that's dictated by the height of the first fret and to a lesser extent the relief.

An angled shim is usually preferred as it's more invisible and you can get away with much less material creating a (very small) angle, rather than just lifting the neck. But both work. Usually the amount of angle required is so small you can't see or feel any difference.

I like veneer best also, card works, but it compresses and could possibly deteriorate over time. I've never noticed any sonic difference between a shimmed neck and one that hasn't been, but personally still prefer milling the pocket to the correct depth/angle. I wouldn't ever ship one of my instruments with a shim, it just seems kind of tacky on a new instrument. But it's a perfectly acceptable repair method.

And before anyone mentions it....no shims do not cause ski jumps, or twists!  

Are you sure the lighter areas are not patches of trapped moisture (blush). These can appear cloudy/hazy and will be paler on darker finishes. Spraying too close should not dissolve your colour coats, unless you rubbed at it also.

If you're painting a solid (opaque) colour I'd just smooth it with 600 before continuing. If it's blush you don't need more colour coats, sanding should release it. Even if you do spray more colour you don't need to sand back to the poly, unless you're keen to have a thin finish (which I guess you aren't as you didn't strip the poly!).

5 hours ago, Grangur said:

Something worth knowing is, to remove dust knibs in the lacquer, don't sand in the usual way. In stead of using the rough side of the W&D, turn the paper over and use the back. This will usually remove the knibs and you can often then avoid needing (yet) another coat. Besides, the next coat will bring yet more knibs anyway.

Yep, depends how deep they are though, I use a tack cloth instead of the back of the paper to get the surfacey stuff. Tack cloths are another worthwhile addition... especially if you're ever spraying white! 

The level sanding is still important though to make sure you end up with a nice even finish. Best to level sand between every three or so coats and after giving the lacquer overnight to dry. Sand too soon and it'll ball up on you and create gouges in the finish.

I was referring to the clear, sorry if it was misleading as you're still spraying colour coats! You can stop spraying colour when you're happy with how it looks, but a few extras can't hurt. Then 1 full can of clear following the rule of 3.

 You don't want to sand your colour coats unless really necessary, or you could get thin spots or burn through. The thinners in the clear Nitro will dissolve any roughness to the colour coats. Do your future level sanding of the clear coat (to remove dust knibs etc) in between clear coat sessions. 

For the neck you don't want to sand the tinted lacquer or you'll end up with an uneven tint, which can be difficult to even out. However the decal does need a good level surface. So spray a very good (level and glossy) final coat of tint. If you flatten it off and apply a decal over it you may also see scratches through the decal depending on the colour, so best avoided if possible.

That'd be safer in the long run, if it's an aerosol you'll want to use at least the whole can of clear, but exactly how much finish you need on the bass depends on how heavy your coats are,  how even they are and of course what your desired end result is. If you have a textured orange peel like surface you'll need to remove more finish when it comes to wetsand and buff. Also keep in mind that if you're using an aerosol they don't have very high solid content, so most of what you're spraying will be thinners which will evaporate. So more lacquer is generally better, you'd have to be really laying it on thick and use multiple cans of clear to end up with a thick finish with aerosol Nitro.

Not 100% I'm sure how many coats you have currently put on, but it doesn't sound like much. Your best bet is to follow the rule of three. This is 3 passes to each coat, 3 coats per day, 3 days of spraying. You will definitely have enough lacquer to level then. If you're not careful and have sprayed too little you'll wait a month then burn through and have to start all over again.

As for the differing advice, that's quite common with finishing. What works for one person may not for someone else as a great deal of the details can vary from person to person...for example how heavy you're spraying, what the conditions are like, what abrasive paper you're using etc etc!

The best way would be to fill them with new switches.

If you want to fill them without switches then appropriately sized dowels would be the best filler material. It obviously won't be invisible, but you could dye the dowels to match to make it less obvious. The specs say Poplar burl....so - http://www.plugitdowel.co.uk/wood-products/wooden-dowels/poplar-dowelling

Below is the description of the MM pickup. I've done quite a few builds with them.

CERAMIC / D.C. =13K- Our Music Man Stingray replacement is an answer to may prayers. The Stingray is a modern classic, but until now, finding a suitable replacement has been difficult. With far less magnetic pull than the originals, ours has full length bar magnets to get every bit of string vibration, no matter how hard you play. Having similar output and tone to the original unit, this improved version has enough output to be used passive, without a preamp. For the authentic Stingray however, a low impedance buffer preamp is recommended. We also strongly suggest series/parallel switch or push/pull pot to get two distinctly different tones made available by the widely spaced coils in this pick-up. Includes wiring diagram and mounting screws. 

Those type of pickups don't usually have individual pole pieces for each string, they have a flat bar pole pieces which span all strings.

You might want to try again with the truss rod nut undone (if it has one), use the clamp to get a slight backbow if you can. Then tighten the truss rod nut once you are happy with the relief.

Keep an eye on it if you put it in your shed, for a shortish period you should be fine and the damper atmosphere may well help, but don't subject the bass to anything too drastic.

Good luck!

On 10/11/2017 at 19:05, Grangur said:

The bass I'm working on is an expensive Warwick with a through neck. When I bought it, the action was high, lots of relief and the frets were tarnished.

After removing the strings I polished the frets, replaced the strings and did a set up. I found I can get the action at the 24th fret down to 2mm and it feels better. With the truss rod it seems to max out with the action at the 9th fret being a touch over 1mm. I like it a bit lower than that.

I received this bass this week, with strings up to tension and the TR was loose. I my guess is the bow is due to poor maintenance.

So last evening I fitted the clamp as in the OP. This can not go wrong. There's no option of replacing the neck. So I applied the clamp to the neck to the point where it was all simply held in place, then applied another 1/2 turn. This allowed me to get another bit of a turn on the TR tool.

Left over night and this morning I was able to get a bit more of a turn on the TR. Left it clamped again all day and tonight I checked it out with strings: Not much different to how it was not the beginning.

So, back on with the clamp. I wish now I'd measured it more accurately, but think I could be in for a long haul here.

If anyone here has ant experience of this they can share, I'd really appreciate your comments.

There's a few options you can look into. Starting with the least risky, you could try doing similar to what you're already doing, just give it longer in the clamps (a week or two) to let the wood gradually bend. If you can gradually clamp it into a backbow so much the better, there will always be a certain amount of "spring back" when the clamp is removed. Did you remove the truss rod nut (if it's that type of rod) before clamping? Here's a video of the basic procedure the OP is describing. But you'll notice the truss rod nut is removed.

You could also try the same basic method, but leave it somewhere a bit damper, the damper atmosphere should make the wood move/bend easier. Once you've got it where you want it, bring up to normal temperature/humidity still in the clamps.

A (more risky) option would be to use heat while clamping, see this thread for more info https://www.talkbass.com/threads/rescuing-a-badly-twisted-1964-jazz-bass-neck.1137165/ which is mainly referring to a twisted neck, but the basic idea is the same.

The last option is to get it as flat as you can, then pull the frets, level the board and refret. How viable that option is depends on how much bow is present.

Whatever you do, don't force anything too hard and make sure you're applying even pressure, otherwise you can end up with a twisted neck.

Having taken the strings, and then the neck off, and letting the neck rest for some time shows a beautiful curve existing only on the B string side so it probably isn't caused by string tension or whatever... OHNOES! What to do... The neck shape is different from other jazzes on this Marcus sig and I really preferer it to the standard ones.

I will try and see where exactly the truss rod does most of its work. I am hoping it works mostly near the 12th fret as this is the problem area. Maybe just a little push will make it be more even on both sides.
Let's try and make the most of it and if needed have the frets shaved according to the (not so huge) neck twist. If that doesn't turn out to make it playable I will throw a carbon neck onto it as wooden necks (apart from the Rickenbacker ones) keep giving me trouble.

Thanks guys.