Misdee

On 02/04/2023 at 21:44, SteveXFR said:

 

Don't forget a lot of what we pay for a Fender is import taxes. In the US they're considerably cheaper than in the UK

True, but comparing retail prices in the UK and USA is a complicated business.

The USA is a low taxation economy with lower retail prices, but Americans have to pay for some things that we usually get for free at the point of contact. The fundamental question is, if you were living an equivalent life in the USA would you be more able to afford the basses you want be because they are cheaper in the shop? The answer is probably not.

On 08/04/2023 at 09:17, BlueMoon said:

The Dimension is a recent example. Nice bass, but Fender fan-boys just didn’t see beyond the P or J looking glass!

The Dimension was a good idea ruined by poor execution. The idea was interesting and potentially appealing to bass players but the fine details let it down. The balance of the instrument on a strap wasn't quite right and the preamp on the active models was the usual functional but uninspiring fare we have come to expect from Fender. If they are going to produce active basses they would be well advised to design or source a world class preamp to put in them. It could serve them well for years to come.

The new Stingray Specials are seriously good basses. Lighter weight, even more punchy tone, ergonomic design ect. Three grand is a bit steep,yes, but it is a very good bass.  I got my hands on one for the first time recently and for me they are the best Stingrays ever.

 I used to have a very good pre-EB Stingray but the new Specials knock spots off it, to be honest.

I'm not keen on most of the colours, that would be my only criticism of the current range.

We are living in a new reality when there is a market for "vintage" Status basses, considering how they were the embodiment of everything modern and progressive at the time. I remember when they first came out! 

These look like a fitting farewell from a superb British company. I'd like an earlier 80's style model in the plain graphite weave, but it looks like they are all gone.😟

Prices have gone up and they're not going to go down again. That is the new reality, I'm sorry to say. 😟

EBMM and Rickenbacker are what I would describe as production guitars, rather than mass produced instruments. I've had four brand new EBMM basses over the years and they all compared very well in most respects with good quality custom made boutique basses I have had. My basses were all standard models, not BFR.

Yes, the new prices are steep, but if you want/ need a new Music Man bass what is the alternative? In the final analysis EBMM basses are probably overpriced by about 20 percent in the UK market place. I would venture that Fenders are overvalued by about the same amount. That's the premium we are paying for the economic situation in the USA and UK. 

To me how much employees are being paid and treated is a complete irrelevance. It's certainly not something I want to pay over the odds to improve. I've had a hard life too. And now I'm expected to find three grand if I want a new Stingray. 

3 hours ago, Beedster said:

Yes they are 100% 👍

Okay then, let me put it another way. If Fender Custom Shop can charge the kind of money they are for Team Built Precision and Jazz basses then this Stingray reissue isn't that untoward in its pricing. In U.S dollars at least, it's an affordable treat. 

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

 

This. Worth or value is predicated by how much people are willing to pay. How much they are willing to pay is governed primarily by desirability. Quality plays a part in determining that, but so do scarcity, the "right" label, appearance and so on. 

I totally agree. A 1960's P Bass isn't worth £7000-£10 000 if your only criteria is buying a tool to do a job with. Whatever folks are paying for, it isn't something tangible. But conversely, my own personal experience is that you can be paying for something equally intangible ( or completely irrelevant) if you opt for a new boutique custom made bass.

Ultimately, one criteria for "worth the money" is how much of what you paid will you be able to get back if you decide to sell it. Another is how much enjoyment and fulfilment will you get from playing that bass, and there can be a conflict between the two. If I  wanted a new Stingray-style bass, for example, I would do better buying a new USA Lakland 44-94 (or 44-76) than a new EBMM Stingray Special if in future I wanted to sell it on.  I would lose less money. However, for my sensibilities at least, only a Musicman bass will do when it comes to Stingrays. I'd always feel dissatisfied with the Lakland, despite the superior build quality ect. So which is the best value?

On 30/03/2023 at 18:51, Beedster said:

No Fender/EBMM/Ric mass-produced bass is worth more than £1500 new 

Are these really mass-produced though? The essential difference between EBMM and Rickenbacker and a lot of handmade basses is that EBMM and Rickenbacker can afford a factory. That is not necessarily  detrimental to the value of the instruments they produce in comparison to those made in a cottage industry.

On 31/03/2023 at 13:43, Musicman20 said:

A beautiful bass but insane prices. The UK in particular is reaching insanity with it's pricing.

 

Import Sterlings are now reaching £1500!

 

https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/search/?Query=musicman+bass

 

It is worth considering that only 8  ish years ago you could get a USA Musicman Bongo HH for £1400-1500, a Stingray H for £1200-1400 and a Classic Stingray H for £1500.

 

At some point surely people just WILL NOT be able buy.

 

Fender and Gibson are doing the same. 

The thing about the guitar trade is, if what you have to sell is sufficiently enticing, someone will buy it. The trick is to anticipate what it is that will prize open people's wallets. Expensive instruments can be much easier to sell than mid-priced ones, providing you have the right thing to sell.

11 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

Not wanting to derail the thread from B*****,  Covid or Russia, but Fender and MM upped their prices before these took effect. I remember when the top fender bass was AM Dlx and they cost around £1.2k new. Then they released the elite and it a similar bass for £2k. My  MM stingray was around £1k new in 2007 but it was 2012ish that the price doubled. Warwick’s move to the team build and master build series also saw prices double and I remember that was only a few years later

To be fair , Warwick are a special case. For a long time now they have been trying make their basses more valuable by increasing the prices. Their reasoning is that if they charge the same as Fodera or Wal ect then that will confer equal status on the instruments they produce. 

On 29/03/2023 at 10:34, Rich said:

 

In the late 80s, I saw a pre EB Ray advertised for £250. I ummed and ahhed and walked away. *slaps self very hard*

I bought a mint 1982/3 Stingray in 1989 for £340. The chap even brought it round to my house for me. The Bass Centre at Wapping had a selection of used Stingrays for £495 a pop for a typical example. You could buy a new Wal for about  £800. I had girls who fancied me and a bright future to look forward to. If anyone invents a time machine, please let me know.

Is a new mass-produced bass ever worth more than £1500? Yes, of course a new mass-produced bass can be worth more than £1500. I would go so far as to say that even ten years ago some factory-made basses were worth that price tag. It just depends on what bass you mean.

How can I be so sure? Well let me put it to you another way. If the  binary opposition is "Are handmade boutique basses worth over £1500?" based on personal experience my answer would  equally be that some are, some aren't. You pay your money and take your choice. I've had Fenders and I've had boutique Fender-style basses. Both were great basses that I enjoyed, but in use the differences between them were negligible. Whatever I paid for on the custom-made basses, it wasn't really important when I was actually playing them and making music. 

Whether a bass is made in a factory or a workshop is not a reliable indicator of quality or indeed value for money. The very best handmade instruments offer a level of quality and attention to detail that most factory-made basses cannot. However, most handmade basses are handmade primarily because whoever makes them cannot realistically find a way to produce them on a grander scale, not because the builder is fanatical about quality or because objectively that is the only way to produce a satisfying instrument. Boutique basses have their own pitfalls and provide no real guarantee of ultimate quality. You can handmake disappointing basses in small numbers, just so long as someone buys them for whatever reason.

A lot of handmade basses are great in certain respects but let themselves down in others. As someone once said, no one ever came up with a brilliant idea in a committee, but a lot of bad ideas were.killed off there. A lot of smaller bass builders would benefit from their instruments going through the committee process. Often custom builders are preoccupied with offering solutions to problems that in reality bass players don't really have.

 If mass produced basses are overpriced and boutique custom basses are overrated then where do we go from there?

Three grand is indeed a bit steep for a new Stingray, but EBMM aren't responsible for the pitiful exchange rate. Also bear in mind rising production costs in manufacturing  and inflation on both sides of the Atlantic. It's primarily those factors which are driving up prices.

That said, EBMM turn out basses that in many respects are just as good as handmade boutique basses, and in some respects better. In my opinion, all they need is a quarter sawn and/or graphite reinforced neck and their instruments would be as good as anything handmade. They sound great, play great, the pickups and electronics are top notch, beautifully finished ect, and are fairly consistent in their quality control.  Their design concepts are top notch too. If a boutique builder had come up with the Stingray Special or the Bongo would we still balk at the prospect of paying three grand for one? Similarly, the Japanese-made Yamaha basses are just as good as any comparable boutique basses you care to name in terms of sound, build quality and overall design.

The reality is that prices are going up, and I don't really foresee them coming down. In a world where a tin of Heinze tomato soup costs £1.70 (!), a Music Man bass is going to cost three grand or more.  Anyhow, soon playing the bass will  increasingly be the prerogative of the wealthy and privileged. Don't be surprised if in a couple of years one of Jacob Rees Mogg's many kids appears on TV aristocratically knocking out Louis Johnson-inspired slap licks on a BFR Stingray as a way of grinding his heel in the face of the undeserving poor while his dad looks on approvingly.

Just let me clarify, I don't mean to denigrate the P34/35 in any way. They are superb professional quality instruments, just as you would expect from a Japanese-made Yamaha. If you've got one I can totally understand why you enjoy it.

I didn't keep mine in the end just because it was a bit weighty, I didn't like the colour when I saw it in the flesh, and I knew I wouldn't use it.  If I see a new vintage white P34 that weighs 9 pounds or less I might well buy another. When you look what a lot of comparable quality basses cost nowadays the P34/35 look like a bit of a bargain.

I prefer the 20 Series because of the unique tone of those basses, but the P34/5 have got their own sound too.  Like I said, they are very tight and focused with great definition to the notes. I agree that they sound more modern than a Fender-style PJ, but just because they have got conventional PJ pickups that doesn't mean they are necessarily supposed to have that old-school sound. Yamaha basses have got their own sound.

I bought a BB P34 when they first came out and didn't keep it long for very similar reasons as yourself and the P35. It was indeed meticulously made, and it had a perfectly acceptable tone, very playable,but the 2024/2025 were/ are something a bit special. 

I don't know about you, but I find the tone of the P34/35 very crisp and focused. There's plenty of bottom end but there's a definite focus to the overall sound that makes it seem a bit lean. The 2024/25 by comparison have got an big bottom end but retain a very appealing bite in the upper mids and treble. Whatever you do with them, they sound big.

I totally take your point about the disparity between the P and J pickups on the newer model. It's an inherent problem on traditional Fender-style pickups in that configuration. One of the great things about the classic BBs  was that somehow they had solved that problem. The P series have opted for more conventional pickups and has lost something in the process, in my opinion.

The BB3000 was/is indeed a very good bass. Usually substantially lighter than the BB2000,too, for some reason.

I remember the reissues. I seem to remember Yamaha found some old parts in storage at the factory in Hamamatsu and made as many basses with them as possible. I wish I had bought one.

The funny thing is, back in the 1980s when they were in production I wouldn't have entertained the idea of buying a BB3000. It was all about custom made boutique basses in those days. With active electronics. 

I know that Yamaha custom shop  in Japan went out and bought a couple of used BB3000s to customize for Tony Kanal. That would suggest to me that they don't have any plans  ( or the means,maybe)to reissue that model anytime soon.

   The later BB3000s were made in Indonesia, if I  remember correctly. If I was buying a used one I would make sure I was buying a Japanese-made example.

A 2024 would be the  closest recent offering from Yamaha, I suppose. They are still fairly easy to find on the used market in the UK and they are very nice basses in their own right.

Blocks but no binding, from what I can see. Blocks need binding!

The legendary status of these basses is due in part to John Entwistle saying that these basses had a raunchier, more growly sound than his regular P Basses at the time. And the fact that he played them during such a fertile era of The Who's musical development. 

I remember back in the mid-1980s Andy Rourke had one of these slabs when he was in The Smiths. I was chuffed because I had a Olympic White P Bass with a black pickguard at the time.

I've never played one of these basses but I have a hunch that if I did, it would sound like a Fender Precision Bass. I am also pretty sure that if John Entwistle played it, it would sound like John Entwistle used to with the Who back in the day, i.e amazing.

The prices of instruments like this is speculative, based on the notion that there are buyers who want to "own a piece of history". I personally just want to own a bass to play. Interesting to look at though.

Wasn't Lenor the original singer who Kajagoogoo unceremoniously sacked after the first album for having too much teenybopper appeal? 

Anyhow, I remember coming home from a night out in the late 1980s and putting the t.v on , probably to watch The Hitman and Her(best t.v show ever) and coming across some middle of the night music show featuring Ellis Beggs and Howard live in concert. I vividly remember Nick was playing a beautiful Warwick Thumb 5 string amazingly well, and he was absolutely everything I wanted to be as a bass player at that time. He's so inventive and busy in his playing, but his bass lines are so well constructed that they are never obtrusive or overbearing. A very, very clever player.

For those unaware, the Charging Green colour is a reference to the Dodge Charger, American muscle car of the late 60's/ early 70's.  Amongst enthusiasts, green is arguably the most desirable colour for this model of classic car.

They only look young and happy because they haven't realised the amount of fret wear they are going to experience. 

Great singer, great songwriter. Lived a full life, that's for sure!

I'm sure he's at peace now.

Pangbournes are indeed rare and still sought after basses. I remember them well. 

The components in the preamp may well just be knackered due to the passage of time. A boffin might be able to fix it and enable you to keep the bass original, but failing that it might well be worthwhile contacting someone like John East to revamp the electronics. John's preamps are wonderful pieces of engineering and they sound terrific. That would be my choice if it were my bass( I should be so lucky...)

17 hours ago, Bassassin said:

The pre - Kaja Beggsy, circa 1979. Tells you all you need to know.

 

 

Kasuga EB-750 from '75-ish, if you were wondering.

 

 

Reminds me of pictures of myself at that age around the same time, except I was much uglier.

I really liked Nick Beggs as a bass player as soon as I first saw/heard Kajagoogoo. Superb and inventive bass lines that really captured the zeitgeist of that time. There were lots of fancy dan bass players back then, but Nick Beggs had real substance to what he played. 

I've always thought Nick has a very distinctive tone, too. Lots of top end but mids to the fore as well. 

If Kajagoogoo had chosen a different name for the band it could have been a different story, daft as that may sound. It's difficult for a band to mature when their name embodies infantilism.