rslaing

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='554906' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:21 AM']Rob - I apologise for crossing between the two threads we are currently discussing, but the 2 vids on this post, in my mind, vindicate everything I've been saying about modes. The second one in particular where there is no hint of a modal centre. The guys use every trick in the book - I suppose you could call it multi-modal but that would be absurd ! But great playing from these guys - I love this style - very open very free soloing over a simple constant root. And Joe Satriani seems to imply that he will similarly use multiple modes in one solo - thereby negating the idea that the music is modal (in the historic sense of the word). As usual with our discussions, we actually agree on most things, but it is the interpretation of the terminology used which causes us to differ. I'm sorry I chose to refer to the jazz theorist as opposed to the non jazz theorist. This was all I could think of at the time to describe why I thought there was a differing way to anotate chord symbols - ie our discussion re the + sign (augmented triads etc). My formative years were spent playing in Mecca bands (dance hall bands) and the way the arrangers wrote chord symbols then has always been in my mind "right" because thats how I first learnt it. Actually at that time the sharp9 chord was always referred to as b10 (ie CEGBbEb). I haven't seen it referred to in this way for quite some time - that's musical progress I suppose ! Anyway, I realize this thread is about walking bass lines, and I personally take a more harmonic approach to this rather than scale based ie I use the basic notes of the chord sequence as my starting point and think in terms of substitute chords for the in between notes. Maybe this needs further discussion !?? The Major[/quote] Great........it would be fantastic if someone would add another track to the topic, perhaps as you mention, substitute chords from a harmonic viewpoint. It's not something that most bass players get involved with while they are "holding down the bottom end" - as they say, but from a selfish point of view, I want to know more to extend my own arranging ability. These are probably early days in the weekly lesson's potential, and no doubt it can be built in to a veritable encyclopedia for musicians who want to really advance their potential. I hope so anyway.

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='554435' date='Jul 28 2009, 09:03 PM']Rob - this quote from Marc Sabatella makes great reading for the jazz muso. Thanks for posting it here. It is as you say very well written and clear. I would just caution other readers to be aware that this type of thinking is very much from a jazz perspective. A lot of the tonal effects he refers to are very much the language of jazz. If you are looking for music theorising of a more pop or rock nature, then this should not be taken too seriously. In any case it will make your brain hurt ! However if you have a thirst for musical knowledge and have a wide interest in the subject, then get stuck in ! I'm still concerned about the miss-naming of C7aug sharp9 versus C7 sharp 9. Again this is due to the jazz nature of the theorising books Rob has been reading. I don't think it's anything to do with US versus UK methods. Rather, its the jazz theorist versus the non jazz theorist.[/quote] This topic was created as a result of a thread which suggested there were a lot of people who were interested in creating walking bass lines. Walking bass lines are very much the domain of jazz music, although in modern day (and I don't mean "pop" music) stuff we are increasingly hearing the introduction of new tonal effects and people introducing combinations of extended chords (previously only heard in jazz post 1940). There is a lot of new Rock music that actually use a lot of the material we are using in this topic -the forerunner (or at least the man who started to sound a little different to previous guitarists of the modern era) was probably Joe Satriani. At least he brought the material he plays incorporating stuff previously only used in modern jazz to the attention of a wider audience. Satriani, in addition to standard rock guitar sounds, uses all of the stuff we are talking about in these lessons, and his fans would not necessarily brand him as a jzz musician. Hendrix used extensively, the 7#9 chords we are talking about presently in his playing, previously considered as a "jazz" chord. He didn't even know what it was called until Miles Davis told him! As far as bassists are concerned, if you want to hear the application of some of the stuff we are doing, have a look at youtube, Alain Caron, Hadrien Feraud, Jaco of course , Steve Bailey etc. I can guarantee they all studied the stuff we are covering here. The modern day Berklee incorporate all of the material we have covered to date in their syllabus. Adam Nitti incorporates most of the stuff we are reading along with modern techniques in to his playing. The list really is endless. I haven't "studied", as has been suggested, any theory for a number of years. I do however, re-read my theory books from time to time to refresh and stimulate the grey matter. Your suggestion that the misnaming of c7#9 as c7+9 because "this is due to the jazz nature of the theorising books Rob has been reading" is just not true. There are several variations in the notation of chords between the UK and the US, just check out any of the american fake books (Chuck Sher's series is about the most accurate and notation is similar to that of the UK) - it caused me a lot of problems in formative days. Now, it is just accepted and most players know that they in US notation, a chord followed by a tension like this has to be reinterpreted because in the UK ( and as is widely accepted as being correct universally) a chord symbol should accurately reflect the basic triad or 4 note chord, and the tensions should be clearly shown afterwards so there is no confusion as to the writer/arrangers intent. In recent years, the disparity in notation has diminished and we are seeing a better standardisation. The tune "All the things you are" that we have used in the last lesson was a transcription from a recognised US educator, who thinks that writing 7#9 as 7+9 is correct. In the UK, as soon as we see a "+" we automatically think of augmented and whole tone scales. We have to be able to be flexible in our interpretation of non UK musical language from older leadsheets. I have never played a chord notated as C+7#9. And using tertian harmony to construct the chord this would result in the chordal notes being C E G# Bb and D# - the same as C7#9(#5). The notated chord of C+7#9 to me (for the purpose of creating a bass line) would suggest using (depending on the key centre) the C whole note scale with an Eb? It doesn't work, too much dissonance for me. Whereas a C7#9#5 would suggest to my ear constructing a bassline or improvising using the altered (super locrian) scale of C Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb. If the Chord is a C7#9 with a natural five, I would use the diminished scale starting with a half step to incorporate the natural fifth. The notes for the C7#9 natural 5 would be C Db Eb E F# G A B. It is up to the musician to decide what he prefers and still works. Although there are some rules, if we all stuck to them, we would still be listening to music based on the drone of modal music from ancient Greece, or at best, Gregorian chants. If we used microtonal instruments, perhaps we could advance further than the restrictions that are placed upon us by the western instruments, Here is a video of Satriani which proves that the use of modes is very much alive in modern rock. If anyone would like to check out his other stuff, he uses a lot of what was previously considered "jazz" chords and licks. But they don't sound like jazz because of the other instruments and rhythm of the genre he prefers. In the following video he is demonstrating an effective way to get the modes in to your ear. I am only using guitarists here, by the way, to demonstrate how modern players and instruments are not stuck in the old "power chord and no fifth blues scale/pentatonics only when soloing" routine. What about another "jazz" guitarist. Wayne Krantz? Another player (10 years with Steely Dan) who incorporates a lot of the stuff we are doing in our lessons as you can see here: This vid is out and out jazz, although not traditional jazz. I only refer to it to show how a musician like Krentz can have the theory and still be flexible enough to be able to work as a session player with various artists in many genres.) Jazz was originally the pop music of the 1920's and 30's, and very basic, often not using anything other than 3 or 4 basic triads as the chordal base. It doesn't sound anything like that now, and apart from people who want to stick to very basic pop music, the material we are covering here is definitely not just for the jazz theorist. My personal education in music, by necessity, has been self tuition with the occasional "expert" lesson from a variety of professionals. I don't pretend to know it all, in fact I stated that I was prepared to spend a lot of time in developing this topic so I could learn more and because there is limited info available for the interested player who wants to find out more so they can improve their musicianship. And finally, I always suggest that players experiment with information supplied and satisfy themselves with the various applications for it. But I take exception (sorry) that this course is for the jazz theorist versus the non jazz theorist. It's for anyone who wants to advance their musicianship through knowledge (which is not easily obtained from one source) and apply that knowledge to practical application on their instrument. There will be debateable matters, but I don't think that a alternative (and I agree, lending itself to possible misinterpretation) way of notating a chord symbol should be attributed to jazz or not jazz. The theory supplied is not just about jazz. If a player wants to stick to pop or basic rock, he might just pick something up that could add a distinctive flavour to his/her style and still works in basic styles. It sure beats playing pentatonics only for the rest of your life. As with any music, it is knowing what to leave out that makes the difference, but first, you have to have the knowledge to know what not to play.

[quote name='endorka' post='554527' date='Jul 28 2009, 10:33 PM']Just to fan the flames a bit, although "So What" is considered to be in the Dorian mode, Mile's solo contains a few C# leading notes, which would place it most likely into the Harmonic minor. This would back up Major Minor's assertion that the application of modes should be taken with a pinch of salt. Jennifer[/quote] After your fanning of the flames, I am reluctantly suggesting a few chromatic notes does not change the basic outline of the tune. And there are no Bb's which is the other note that defines a D harmonic minor? I've had a think about this and I think that Major is right. The possible misunderstanding though, comes from people not knowing that there is a difference between modal song, and using modal scales in a non-pure modal song - if you know what I mean. Perhaps when we see a song with only a couple of chords, with a repetitive bass or melodic motif, it is all too easy to label it as "modal". Of course, it doesn't help when the jazz commentators pigeonhole this stuff as modal and no one objects and then you check the definition and that is strictly speaking not correct. Maybe we should have a new label. Stuff that is not built on a drone could be called "New Modal" or "Modern Modal" as against "Traditional Modal". After all, they have been doing this with folk music for years, with the stalwarts refusing to acknowledge modern folk music as "folk". Rob.

To The Major:- It really would be great if you could find the time to write your theory on Modes. I am particularly keen to know your ideas on the application of modal scales in modern music. Cheers Rob

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='554300' date='Jul 28 2009, 06:57 PM']I often play "So What" as a bass guitar feature so hopefully I know how it goes (!) and there is no minor third in the melody: (in D minor) D A B C D E C D A are the notes of the main phrase which is repeated with small variations but still confined to the same set of notes. So as you can see there is no 3rd (minor or major). Its only by putting a chord of Dminor against the melody that you get an F (minor 3rd) in the mix Lets be clear: Every scale is a type of mode. so any piece of music (or part of a piece) that has a clearly defined scale at its heart is modal. And you are right to say that So What is a good example of the modern use of modes. We no longer think of the mode as just a scale. It has become a way to think of possible notes to play against a given chord. But it's only one of several approaches that one can take. I'm just concerned that people seem to get the wrong end of the stick when learning about modern modes. It becomes restrictive if you think you have to stick to the notes of the scale. Modes are a great starting point when composing or improvising, but nobody actually sticks to these scales except to create modal effects within a solo or composition. The Major[/quote] Apologies for my stupid comment about a minor third in the melody of "So What", I really should know better. I can't honestly explain where I got that from I am getting a bit lost here. Sorry to ask more questions. I have attached a lead sheet for "So What". I see minor thirds in the horn harmony defining the mode.. The sheet also defines the modal chord as Dmin7 dorian. That's what it sounds like to me too. This is the lead sheet (as you can probably see from it's condition) I have used for gazillion years HELP!! Tell me where I am going wrong................. [attachment=29809:so_what.jpg]

Because we have opened up the topic and are now investigating the harmonic aspects of the 7#9 (altered dominant), I am quoting some info from a great educator and musician, [url="http://www.marcsabatella.com/music/study.html"]Marc Sabatella[/url], to explain something in a much better way than I ever could. [i][b]Altered Scale[/b] The seventh mode of the melodic minor scale is often called the diminished whole tone scale, because it combines elements of the diminished and whole tone scales discussed later. Another name for this scale is the altered scale. To see why, recall the introductory discussion on chords. Chords are constructed by stacking thirds. Triads consisting of three notes were discussed, as were seventh chords consisting of four notes. In the key of C, G7 is the dominant seventh chord. It contains a root -G, a third -B, a fifth (D), and a seventh (F). If we add another third on top, A, we have a ninth chord G9. If we add another third, C, we have an eleventh chord G11. The C is the fourth of the scale, and is normally an avoid note. This symbol is normally used only when the fourth is explicitly required, as in a suspended chord. If we then add another third, E, we have a thirteenth chord G13. The C is normally omitted from this chord. Another third would bring us back to G. This chord can be altered by raising or lowering individual notes by a half step. The root, third, and seventh are not normally altered, since they are in large part what define the chord. A change to any of these destroys the dominant feel of the chord. The raised eleventh has already been discussed. The other interesting alterations are to the fifth and the ninth. For a G7 chord, this means the lowered or flat fifth (Db), the raised or sharp fifth (D#), the lowered or flat ninth (Ab), and the raised or sharp ninth (A#). [b]So now let us return to the so-called altered scale. A G altered scale can be built from Ab melodic minor, and consists of "G, Ab, Bb/A#, Cb/B, Db, Eb/D#, F". First note that this scale contains G, B, and F, the root, third, and seventh of the G7 chord. The rest of the notes, Ab, Bb, Db, and Eb, are respectively, the flatted ninth, the raised ninth, the flatted fifth, and the raised fifth. In other words, all the possible alterations in a ninth chord are included in this scale. The chord implied by this scale is often notated simply G7alt, although G7#9#5 is used as well, [size=3]as is G7#9[/size]. The b9 and b5 symbols are not normally used in this context, despite being present in the scale, because they imply the diminished scale which is discussed later.[/b] The sound of the altered scale and the chord it implies is much more complex than any other dominant seventh chord/scale so far presented, and it is one of the most important sounds in post bop jazz. You may wish to spend more time on this scale to get used to it. Try going to a piano and playing the root, third, and seventh in your left hand while playing the altered scale, and lines based on it, in your right. You may use this scale even when the chord appears to be an ordinary dominant seventh, but you should do so cautiously in a group setting, because other members of the group may be playing mixolydian or lydian dominant sounds, and your altered scale will sound dissonant against them. This is not necessarily wrong, but you should be conscious of the effect produced.[/i]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='554064' date='Jul 28 2009, 03:43 PM']I have the feeling that there is a lot of confusion about musical modes on this forum ! I doubt I can put this right in one post, and I do have the intention of creating a new topic called "The History and Modern Usage of Musical Modes" when I can find time to do it properly ! But for now: Musical modes are actually very simple to understand once you know their history and how they became part of the current "jazz" music education system. In brief (apologies to scholars): Modes have probably been around for thousands of years. Nobody really knows because, until the Greek Civilisation, nothing was really written down. The Greeks theorised what was at that time the main musical vehicle, but of course we can never know just how their music sounded. The best guess is to listen to Indian Carnatic (Classical) music which developed even further down the modal line creating very complex and structured scales and rules. The Greeks identified 7 basic modal scales rooted on the 7 notes of the modern major scale: Ionian (our modern major scale) Dorian Phrygian Lydian Mixolidian Aeolian (natural minor scale) Locrian (a rarely used mode - mainly just theoretical) (There are other modes and scales and things like the wholetone scale and pentatonics that developed over time but lets leave that for another post) The important thing to understand here is that, more often than not, there would have been a drone (continuous bass note) underlying the melody. There were no chords - harmony as we know it had yet to emerge. (And once that harmony started to take root, the use of modes gradually died out. ) Each note of the modal scale had a relationship to that drone or root note. This is what created its character. Lets be clear: The ancients were probably not just playing up and down scales ! They were creating melodies or improvisations from within the notes of a particular mode. But always with a root note that the melody kept referring to (or a drone to root the melody on). (So the melody to "So What", had it been in existence in Byzantine times, would not have been clearly in Dorian mode, as it is actually based on a pentatonic scale (5 notes), and this melody doesn't give a clue as to whether it is major or minor.) The use of modes in music has always been essentially an academic one. If you analyze a folk tune like Scarboro' Fair, you can say it is in Dorian mode. But when it was created, i doubt very much whether the writer(s) realised that ! Folk music through the ages has always used modal ideas (so the academics now tell us), but much of that folk music was un-harmonised, unlike today when we put chords to everything. This really is the point i'm trying to put across: For much of it's history, modal music was purely melody based on a drone or root. More recently, composers who liked to incorporate folk-like moments in their music, used the modal analysis as a starting point for their composition. I'm referring here to the likes of Ralph Vaughn-Williams and Gustav Holst (and many others I can't think of right now!) It's only really with the emergence of jazz education systems that the mode has re-emerged as an analytical / compositional / improvisational tool. When I was at music college in the 1960's, musical modes were only vaguely mentioned from a historic perspective, and it wasn't until the jazz academics started to pidgeon-hole the different emerging styles that the humble mode started to re-appear in jazz educational tomes. It was realised that the jazz musicians were improvising using scales over chords that you could identify by the old Greek modal names. That's not to say that the players were sticking rigidly to this idea - far from it in fact - the modal approach is just one of many way of kicking off improvised soloing. Nowadays modes are taught as if they were the only way forward for the jazz improviser / composer. And this is where i take issue with the jazz educators. A mode is actually a [u]limitation[/u] if taken too literally. Incorporate it - yes - but control it - don't let it rule you! An improvising soloist needs to understand the possibilities that modal thinking will throw up - but they also need to understand that modes can actually hold you back unless you take them with a pinch of salt. And particularly for bass players, where the underlying harmonic sequence should be at the forefront of your mind when creating a bass part, modal thinking should be left to the academics !! The Major[/quote] That was a brilliant post and very well written! Thank you. It was me that mentioned So What because I honestly thought under the modern "interpretation" of modes, it was a modal tune. Why do the jazz academics refer to So What as the principal example of modern modal music then? Or have I got hold of the wrong end of the stick? You mentioned that the melody doesn't indicate whether it is in a major or minor? What about the minor 3rd all the way through the melody? Is that just considered a "blue" note? I know Wikipedia is not accurate a lot of the time, but some of the dialogue seems to underpin a lot of jazz as being modal. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_jazz[/url]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='553982' date='Jul 28 2009, 02:28 PM']Rob (by the way - hope you are over your flu !) Carrying on in pedantic mode: Re: bar 28. This really worries me. I suppose I have my arranger's hat on here rather than the "jazz" hat. The point I was trying to make is this: Bar 28 has 3 main ingredients which should be made absolutely clear to the muso reading the chart. They are: C root, E (creating the majorness of the harmony), and the Gsharp in the melody. Altogether this creates an augmented triad which is at the heart of the harmony for this bar. If we add Bb, this underlines the dominant nature of the chord but it is not essential. It is just an option. Even less important is your sharp 9 (Dsharp). This is purely colouration. A very good addition but essentially just filigree or added tension. I take issue with you over the nature of the symbol C7 +9. When written like this, you should assume that the 5th of the chord (G) is natural. For it to be sharpened, there must be an indication of that augmentation, whether it be a + sign (ideally) after the "C", (C+), or a sharp5 sign. Otherwise how can you differentiate the chord C E G Bb Dsharp (C7 sharp9) from the chord C E Gsharp Bb Dsharp (C7 augmented sharp9) ? As I've said in previous topics, its only too easy to have anomalies creeping in to the world of the chord symbol. We need at all times to be clear as to our exact intentions when writing chord abbreviations. I agree with you about fake books - they are always somebody's personal ideas re the harmony and should be taken with a pinch of salt. But we have to start somewhere when learning a new song so I have loads of fake books to get me started. Then of course you can start adding your own substitutions. I find your "Weekly Lesson" very interesting Rob, as I'm always looking for new ways to help explain music theory to students. The Major[/quote] Thanks for your input. Maybe it is a good thing that you have brought this up as people can investigate for themselves. I have answers for your bit about differentiating between chord C E G Bb Dsharp (C7 sharp9) from the chord C E Gsharp Bb Dsharp (C7 augmented sharp9) but for now, as I suggested in the post, I want people to read the 7#9 as an alt. chord with both a #5 and a b5. I didn't really want to go in to this yet, but if there is a natural 5 in the chords and a #9, then the odds are you would use a half step-whole step diminished scale, otherwise known as the 8 note dominant scale. C7#9 with a natural 5 would then use a scale of C Db Eb E Gb Gnatural A and Bb. Can everyone (for now because I can't change the lead sheet) read the 7+9 chords as 7#9 because, as Major said, there is a difference between the UK and US notation. Here is a free scale syllabus from Aebersold for everyone. I wouldn't imagine he would mind me posting the actual thing on here, but just in case, here is the link. It demonstrates some of the issues Major has brought up , and is helpful to some degree. [url="http://www.aebersold.com/FQ/13_scale_syllabus.pdf"]http://www.aebersold.com/FQ/13_scale_syllabus.pdf[/url][url="http://www.aebersold.com/FQ/13_scale_syllabus.pdf"]Scale Syllabus[/url]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='553807' date='Jul 28 2009, 12:22 PM']Well done Rob ! As usual, you have put a huge amount of work in to this - I applaud your endeavours. Can I just clarify a few points that some readers might find confusing: On the songsheet you have put the 1st two bars as Fm and Bbm. Perfectly alright - but it would be better if they were marked as Fm7 and Bbm7 as the flow of the sequence works better with these 7ths added. To be fair, you have marked them as such on the chord sheet at the end of the post. Without these 7ths being stated, the chords (triads) sound too static and lacking in direction.[/quote]. Hi, nice to hear from you again! I have deliberately left it as bare minor chords to encourage experimentation. I'll have to let the cat out of the bag now - the next lesson will incorporate theory about the various applications of minor scales and the final 5 modes that stem from minors. Most players when using the playalong will notice that in the intro, for example, I am playing a m7 chord but all of the minor scales can be used for improv - it depends how you use them, and that is the purpose of the exercise. [quote]In bar 28, you have put C7 +9. This bar is usually stated in most fake books as C7+ - in other words C dominant 7 with an augmented 5th: C E [u]Gsharp[/u] Bb. If you look at the melody line, the [u]Gsharp[/u] goes through both bar 27 and 28 and then carries on into the next section as an Ab. This note is a feature of this moment in the melody, the chords changing (modulating) while the note stays the same. You have explained that the symbol C7 +9 means a sharpened 9 (ie Dsharp). Therefore this gives us C E G Bb Dsharp. The Gsharp in the melody will not work very well against the G natural in your chord symbol. A whole tone scale will work nicely over C7augmented (C7+). (There are of course only 2 wholetone scales.)[/quote] It's a booby - it should be shown as C7#9. It's an american way of notating the 7#9. The scale to use with a Calt orC7#9 is the 7th mode of the melodic minor ascending. ( Check out Mark Levine!) so the scalar notes over the chord of C E Bb and Eb (C7#9) would be B C D Eb Gb Ab and Bb. There isn't a G natural in an altered chord, as I illustrated in the post, its a #5 not a natural 5. I also mentioned that there is another scale which is used if a G natural was indicated, but then it would not be an fully altered chord with both the #5 and b5. I accept your suggestion and people should try the augmented scale over a C7aug, but the leadsheet we are using is a C7#9. I don't like fake books, there are very few that are correct. And yes, most of them do show different chords to this but I like this one personally and it helps to illustrate how tensions can change the mood of a song. [quote]Bar 36 you state as a Bminor chord - yet the melody line is G and F. A better chord symbol at this bar would be Bo (B diminished). This is one of those rare moments where the Locrian mode can be invoked.[/quote] Absolutely, everyone can feel free to experiment away and internalise different sounds they prefer. The stuff I input is not written in stone, which I why I included the "vanilla" lead-sheet at the end. I didn't create the chords by the way, they were written by a far better musician than me! [quote]And finally: Bar 38 has an F minim followed by a G minim in the melody. Therefore the Eb7 +9 chord only works under the second half of the bar, the first minim being an Eb9 chord.[/quote] Sounds ok to me in the playalong thingy as a tension, but yes, your point is valid. I still encourage people to experiment and find out what they like best. [quote]Sorry to be so pedantic ![/quote] Not at all, I am glad someone is joining in! The Major

[b]The Weekly Lesson - Lesson 3 - Part 2[/b] This lesson is a continuance of Lesson 3 Part 1 and if you haven't read that one and downloaded the play-alongs, this one could make no sense whatsoever. People interested in this topic must start from lesson 1 part one and progress sequentially, or they will be very confused, none of these lessons are "stand alone" lessons and depend on the integration of the previous lesson every time. I have had a few questions about how this stuff could be relevant if you don't like/want to play jazz type bass lines. Simple - it's all relevant to any type of music. Once you get this stuff in your head, the only (main) difference between the type of music I use for examples and play-alongs and any other genre will be the rhythmic aspect, the sound of your instrument the other musicians around you, and the volume you play at. Once you know the sounds of chords and their scalar notes, you can put in, or leave out of your music whatever you like. Take the information and apply it to your preferred genre of music, the harmonic aspect is no different no matter what. [b]Key Centres.[/b] The most common question I get asked, and people have difficulty getting to grips with, is "how do I know which notes I can play over a chord?" The answer is (apart from knowing your scales and arpeggios etc), by being able to recognise key centres in a song, so you will know the correct notes to play when creating a bass line. This might sound obvious to some, but one of my main problems when I first started playing, was knowing which notes I could use to "join up" the chordal notes in an arpeggio, and until I got the sounds of intervals in my ear/head, which notes would "fit" when I took a solo and improvised. I couldn't understand why, for example, the scalar notes on some minor 7th chords could be different to those of another minor 7th in another part of the same song. Then I realised that it was because although the chordal notes were the same (1,3,5 and b7), the other notes that could be used were to be taken from the scale of the key that was relevant to that part of the song. All will be revealed below! [b]Let's analyse the form of the song[/b]. It is in four sections, and we call it an "A A B A" form. For convenience, I have re-listed the links to relevant material for part two here: [url="http://www.trds.co.uk/music/all-the-things-ur-bassandmelody.MP3"]Link to first track with melody, chords and bass[/url] [url="http://www.trds.co.uk/music/all-the-things-ur-chords-only.MP3"]Link to second track with just chords for you to play along with - melody is on attached songsheet with chords.[/url] [url="http://www.trds.co.uk/music/all-the-things-you-are.pdf"]Link to songsheet[/url] [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=29523"]Open the songsheet here[/url] [b]The intro[/b] has a chord we haven't come across yet a 7#9, and it is explained below. [b][i]( NOTE:- the notation on the leadsheet is 7+9, this is an older americanised way that some writers used in their notation. Please read this as 7#9, I will amend future song/leadsheets if necessary.)[/i][/b] After the intro" the first part of the song, bars 5 - 12, is the first "A" section in the AABA form. The second part of the song, starting at bar 13 through to 20, is another 8 bars we will also label as an "A". For this purpose I will add a "*" after it because although it is very similar to the first "A" section, this section is in a different key. The third part, bars 21 - 28, we call the B part of AABA form. This section is labelled differently to the A sections because it IS different - has different keys and melody line. The fourth part is also labelled with an "A". We go back to the original melody here, and to finish off the song a cadence (series of chords marking the end of a phrase, section, or piece of music) is added in the last few bars. [b]THE FIRST A SECTION: BARS 5 - 12[/b]. In this first section, there are two key centres...Ab and C. The chord progression is a 6-2-5-1-4 in the key of Ab. All scalar notes from the scale of Ab major can be played over this section without fear of extreme dissonance. 6-2-5-1-4, or as is more commonly seen in roman numerals , VI - II -V -I -IV, is telling you the chords are built on those degrees of the scale relevant to this key centre. If you were building these chords from the scale Ab, [b]VI - II - V - I - IV[/b] would be [b]Fm - Bbm - Eb7 - Abmaj7 - and Db[/b]. So the scale of Ab major would be used when improvising over this sequence, or if playing a walking line, the notes of Ab major would be used to "join up" your chordal notes. The song then moves in to the key of C major via a II - V - 1. The chords are Dm - G7#9 - C. To give the dominant chord a bit of "flavour" and get away from the anticipated standard II V I sound, the G7 has been changed to a G7#9. It doesn't clash with the melody, adds a little tension and gives more relief when it moves to the C major. We haven't covered the 7#9 yet so here is a bit of info. Most players agree that the dominant 7#9 chord also contains all of the altered tensions we discussed in the previous lessons. In other words, the b9, #9, b5, #5 and of course the b7. This scale is more commonly called (believe it or not) the "altered" scale, and is sometimes written as (for example) "C alt" The scale is derived from the Melodic minor (ascending) or Jazz minor scale. If you play from the seventh note of the jazz/melodic minor scale ascending, you now have the altered scale. Make sure you practice it in all keys! Technically, it should be written C7#9#5, because there is another scale which can be played over C7#9 that has a natural 5th in the chord. We will cover that in a later lesson so please accept for now that if you see a 7#9 chord, the writer will in 99% of cases assumed the altered chord and scale. Scale notes for C7#9 are C, Db, Eb, E, Gb, Ab and Bb. Chordal notes are C, E, Bb and Eb. TRY PLAYING THIS OVER THE C7#9 IN THE INTRO then transpose the scale to G7#9, D7#9, B7#9 and Eb7#9 so you can use it in other parts of the song. It's a beautiful scale and chord. As well as being heavily used in jazz, Hendrix played it a lot. Try playing this 4 note chord above the 12th fret for clarity on your bass to get "the sound" of it. You'll be able to throw the chord into some of your blues tunes too. [b]THE SECOND A* SECTION - bars 13 to 20 [/b] This section has a similar structure to the first A section, but has the key centres of Eb and G. Again, the first five bars are 6-2-5-1-4, but in Eb. This moves in to a 2-5-1 progression in the key of G. This whole section is the same progression as in the first A section except a perfect fourth interval lower. This means ANYTHING you play over the first 8 bars can be played over the second 8 bars by simply moving the pattern up a fifth or down a fourth interval. A great way to develop motivic themes. [b]THE B SECTION - bars 21 - 28 [/b] This section is what is commonly called "the bridge" We have 2 new key centres. The first 4 bars are a 2 - 5 - 1 in G. The next three bars are a 2-5-1 in the key of E. This section ends with another 7#9 to lead us back into: [b]THE FINAL A SECTION.[/b] The first 5 bars are the same as the first A section of the song. The next four bars contain a chromatically descending progression of minor chords (very nice!), before a 2-5-1 of Bbm to Eb7#9 and Abmaj7. If you have the facility, loop these 3 bars that I recorded in the first part of this lesson (using the chords and drums recording, not the other one) and develop a scale that would fit all three chords if you can. You can start by simply playing the scales relevant to each chord to get the sound in to your head. Then find common notes to each. The maybe find some dissonant notes that work - just experiment!!! The final two chords in the last bar are another 2-5 progression to return us to the first A section. Loop this section and see if you can find a common scale that will work over it, as well as the individual scalar notes. Here is a graphical display of the key centres. You will notice that the chords are slightly different and the intro is missing. It doesn't matter, it is only there so you can now visually put all of the above in to perspective. Try using the chords in this sheet over the playalong if you like, it will help you to differentiate the sounds of basic chords against those with tensions added. [attachment=29748:key_cent...is_attya.jpg] [b]Word of warning.[/b] The information provided is only a guide. Although the scalar notes etc will work for you when applied theoretically, this will not necessarily make it musical. But we have to start somewhere, and once you have internalised the theory and the sounds, you can add to, or discard stuff to suit your style. Practice in a way that you find interesting, or you will not develop. Make it musical. Have a break every 30 minutes for 10 mins, so you can subconsciously absorb what you have been doing. Finally, if possible, buy a copy of "[url="http://www.seventhstring.com/index.html"]Transcribe![/url]" for your computer. It makes practising so much more interesting and beneficial. It is a great tool for all musicians and it is not expensive. You can loop sections, slow down and speed up cd's at the same pitch as the original to develop your playing and ear skills and so much more. As usual, let me know of any glaring errors or questions you have regarding the above. Rob

[quote name='BassistJonathan' post='552936' date='Jul 27 2009, 05:46 PM']I have a geddy lee jazz bass. I paid slightly over the odds for it as I really wanted one, £510 incl postage and a hardcase. I reckon I would get less than this if I sold it on, and I love everything about this bass other than the fret buzz and action, so I really want to get it fixed properly. I live in sunderland, any help greatly appreciated.[/quote] Howard Satterley - The Bassdoc on here. Just put bassdoc into search and send him a pm

[quote name='dlloyd' post='552052' date='Jul 26 2009, 08:46 PM']The biography is as accurate as they come. There are a few features of the Biography that upset people. 1. It concentrates on the part of Jaco's life in which his bipolar episodes had intensified, when he lived in New York and was a close friend of Milkowski. The material from this part of the book is as accurate as any biography. It is well-researched, backed up with interviews and from published material. Pat Metheney has said that he had no contact with during this part of his life. Bob Bobbing (a long term friend of Jaco) has collaborated with Milkowski in the 2nd edition to redress this balance issue. 2. Milkowski related an incident in which Jaco introduced a young girl to him as his 'daughter'. Milkowski had no reason to question that the girl was his daughter, but as it turned out, Jaco was fibbing. Milkowski corrected this in the paperback edition of the 1st edition. 3. Some have complained that Jaco's illness was not treated with compassion. Frankly, to bend the truth in order to make him look more less ill than he really was would have been a disservice to him... 4. The person who has been most vocal about their criticism of the book is not presented in a particularly positive light in the book. 5. There is (for want of a better word) a feud between certain members of Jaco's first family (who are associated with Bob Bobbing) and his second family. For more details, check out the forum on the official Jaco Pastorius site forum.[/quote] Great post, and well said.

Over a number of years, I have collected and read most articles and books written regarding Pastorius by many "authors", and interviews with his ex-fellow musicians. I keep hearing about this book littered with inaccuracies, but most of the authors (apart from his immediate family members and his last wife) all seem to report similar stuff. Indeed, it is only his last wife who has really protested at strongly some of the publications - might this be because there were stories about her too? If it is Milkowsky's book that is inaccurate, why don't the few people who have criticised it, come forward and tell what the inaccuracies are? It seems strange that there have been no legal action taken in the form of libel or even an attempt to rectify these "inaccuracies" in the book. Milkowsky is a highly respected journalist in his field, I think he would be aware of resultant problems both legally and with his career. What he writes is not sensationalist either. It starts with Jaco's early days with contributions from his brother Gregory, who apparently contributed quite a bit regarding the rest of his life, his behaviour and illness (Bipolar). So until someone comes forward and disputes the elements that are allegedly "horribly inaccurate", I'll go with the writers that have put pen to paper, as much as I would rather it wasn't true. EDIT: further to the above from WIKI (not necessarily accurate either ) [b]Biography controversy[/b] "[i]In 1995, jazz author Bill Milkowski published Jaco: The Extraordinary And Tragic Life of Jaco Pastorius.[30] The book was written primarily from Milkowski's first hand experiences with Jaco when he lived in New York between 1984 and 1987, when Jaco's health had deteriorated.[31] This was supplemented with interviews with friends and family, as well as musicians and industry insiders.[32] Jaco's second wife Ingrid has complained that the book treated Jaco with a lack of sensitivity,[31] and has listed a number of contextual inaccuracies on her website.[33] Guitarist Pat Metheny, who was a close friend before Jaco before joined Weather Report,[19] wrote in the liner notes of the reissue of Jaco's first album that Milkowski's book was "a horribly inaccurate, botched biography".[3] The softcover edition of Jaco: The Extraordinary And Tragic Life of Jaco Pastorius amended a paragraph concerning an occasion in which Jaco had introduced a female friend to Milkowski as his daughter.[33] A new 2005 edition has made further changes[/i]" So nothing major then...what's all the fuss about? One or two alterations and nothing about the main issues.

[quote name='waynepunkdude' post='550683' date='Jul 24 2009, 11:01 PM']I have to be at a venue tomorrow @ 3PM and I think that is early.[/quote] I've been asked to do a gig in December and I think that is early:)

[quote name='endorka' post='550343' date='Jul 24 2009, 04:10 PM']so you can also use them to listen to music on the train etc. without looking like a complete moron. Jennifer[/quote] I'm afraid they wouldn't help me because unless the headphones are six foot six high and 3 feet wide, people would still be able to see I'm a moron.

[quote name='Zach' post='550574' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:01 PM']am i being a bit dim? I can't sew anywhere where you've actually said the song name. Every time you seem to say 'the song' Edit: have realised it says it on the song sheet, but it might be worth saying at the beginning anyway.[/quote] OK, I'll doctor the post - apologies. Rob

[quote name='Zach' post='550574' date='Jul 24 2009, 09:01 PM']am i being a bit dim? I can't sew anywhere where you've actually said the song name. Every time you seem to say 'the song'[/quote] It's on the top of the songsheet

[b]The Weekly Lesson - Lesson 3 - part 1[/b] This week, I have recorded a backing track that will hopefully give all interested players an opportunity to apply all of the stuff covered in previous lessons. It is one the most melodic songs ever written, with many different key centres and some wonderful "movement" because of the superb chord sequences. It's called All The Things You Are by Jerome Kern. The leadsheet is attached (below) The backing track has been played by me, with the melody, bassline and chords all played on the same bass. I did the track in literally 15 minutes, directly to my Boss Micro recorder so excuse the quality and a couple of gaffes (and the fact that it isn't well balanced!). It is a slower version than normal, to facilitate the things we will be addressing when learning it. If you want to hear different versions, try spotify - the youtube stuff is a bit disappointing to say the least - the ones I could find anyway. Remember, the idea of the tracks are to assist you in your learning process, they are not an example of good musicianship or quality recording methods. The first track is the whole thing, melody line an octave higher than the songsheet, a made-up-on-the-spot walking bassline, plus chords. And in the second track, I have played chords only at the point of change (no frilly widdly bits) so you can play over them, learning the melody (very important), develop your own bassline, and perhaps improvise over the changes. It is ideal though, for studying the attached songsheet and namely:- 1).Creating bass lines by applying diatonic/modal scales to an actual song 2).How to recognise key centres and find the "right" notes to use in creation of melodic flowing lines. 3).The cycle of fifths. 4). II - V - I's I have numbered the bars in red for reference purposes. Can I suggest (in order to make this lesson as effective as possible) that for now, you simply listen to the tune as many times as possible and learn the melody. Learn the chord sequence by heart by singing the root notes of the chords as you play them on your bass. This helps to develop your ear, and bypass the thinking process by developing your ability to play intervals immediately on your bass at first hearing. I would appreciate it if we don't start analysing the tune or asking questions until I post the VERY comprehensive study of the song on Monday (3 days time), because it could complicate matters as I have structured it in a way that will hopefully, simplify things. We could be working on this song for a couple of weeks because of it's complexity and amount of technicality. This is a great tune to develop aspects of your bass playing. By all means use the previous lessons information on scales and modes while you are "experimenting". If you are "chomping at the bit" and can't wait until the support material on Monday, by all means PM me with your questions! Rob [url="http://www.trds.co.uk/music/all-the-things-ur-bassandmelody.MP3"]Link to first track with melody, chords and bass[/url] [url="http://www.trds.co.uk/music/all-the-things-ur-chords-only.MP3"]Link to second track with just chords for you to play along with - melody is on attached songsheet with chords.[/url] [url="http://www.trds.co.uk/music/all-the-things-you-are.pdf"]Link to songsheet[/url]

"It takes a pretty great drummer to be better than no drummer" -Chet Baker

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='549366' date='Jul 23 2009, 08:29 PM']Have you posted that letter to Bass Player?[/quote] No, but I dare say that my influence is felt far and wide, and when people reach a "certain age", my status as a role model (and Victor Meldrew "type") takes hold and affects general demeanour and philosophy about life. My wife, who is 25 years younger than me, has assured me that my good looks and wealth did not influence her decision to marry me, and that it was my personality that was the main reason. At my stage in life, why should I question her mental state?

[quote name='Pete Academy' post='549335' date='Jul 23 2009, 07:55 PM']Just bought the new USA Bass Player mag. Waste of money, as there's nobody I like or have heard of. The redeeming factor is an old guy who has a letter printed. Pure gold...the Victor Meldrew of the bass playing world. We need him on Basschat![/quote] What for? You've got me!

[quote name='skywalker' post='549261' date='Jul 23 2009, 06:36 PM']Thanks - that begins to make some sense. So am I right(ish) in saying that the ii-V-I is actually a phrase within a bigger progression, rather than a progression in it's own right (like a 12 bar blues for instance). Steve[/quote] II - V - I in the key of C major = Dm7 - G7 - C II - V - I in the key of D major = Em7 - A7 - D etc etc. A lot of songs have VARYING KEY CENTRES (they actually change key several times during the song). Some don't. A lot of pop tunes don't get beyond two chords - so you won't hear a II V I. There are some generalisations in the following, because to be more specific would take a lot of pages. Other types of modern music (blues, country, rock and roll (Status Quo) etc) don't have (straight forward) II V I's. There chord changes are based on I IV V (in no specific order, althought the tendency is still, but not always, for a dominant V chord (G7 for example) to go to the I (C Major in this case). Blues songs don't adhere to these principles because the 3 main chords are all seventh chords E.G. C7 - f7 - C7 -etc and eventually a G7 to return to the C7. To fully understand the II V I please read " The Weekly Lesson" in the theory section - it tells you all about this stuff. There are no short cuts. And principally every other chord apart from the I II and V are alternative and interchangeable chords to the II V and I. We will be getting into functions in the next week or two. A little taster. In the key of C major, you can play a IV chord instead of the II chord and vice versa. ( F6 is "the same" as Dm7 with a different root. You can play the VII (Bm7b5) chord as an alternative to the V7 (G7). You can play the III chord (Em7) or the VI (Am7) chord instead of the I (Cmaj/Cmaj7). Functional harmony is also important if you want to understand the answers to your questions, but don't worry, it's fairly easy to understand, and all will be revealed in the "Weekly Lessons" as they progress. I am in the middle of preparing the next "Weekly Lesson" although it is a week late (bed-ridden with man flu recently). In this one, there will be a "play along" and lots of II V I's and analysis of key centres. As well as the opportunity to create some bass lines from the info supplied in the last 3 lessons. If this is a clear as mud. pm me with some specific questions and I will do my best to help. Rob EDIT: afterthought - it's handy to know this stuff, but as a bass player, it is your job to define the harmonic structure of the song. So learning this material improves your abilities and effectiveness by knowing what works and what to leave out!

So What - Miles Davis, and covered by most musicians in nearly every genre. Try it on Spotify- Candy Dulfer does a decent "funky" version.

[quote name='The Bass Doc' post='546930' date='Jul 21 2009, 07:45 PM']I've used lighter fuel to good effect in the past[/quote] So that was what Hendrix was doing........................

[quote name='Hot Tub' post='546723' date='Jul 21 2009, 04:55 PM']I've been making a serious effort to learn to read music, and after a painfully slow start, am actually making some decent and - to me at least - impressive progress. So recently I've been wondering if there are any on-line sheet music resources? Bass tabs are ten-a-penny, but what I'd really like is pdf's of the bass lines which I can already play, so I can study them a bit more and probably correct all my mistakes! I know we can buy songbooks, but in many cases I don't want a band's entire back catalogue, or the latest album; I just want one or two songs. So, does anyone know of such a thing? [/quote] I've got thousands. If you let me know the sort of thing you want, I'll send you some.