MiltyG565

[quote name='ras52' timestamp='1442397063' post='2866582']
There are a couple of alternative versions of the song in the OP here - [b]not [/b]sounding like MJ

[url="https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153642660073896&fref=nf"]https://www.facebook...0073896&fref=nf[/url]
[/quote]

That's fantastic!

[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1442346646' post='2866323']
Milty, I hear a woman's voice...it's your mum, calling you in.

Now go back inside and be and be a good lad.
[/quote]

It's actually your mum calling me, but thanks for reminding me.

[quote name='jonsmith' timestamp='1442339658' post='2866229']
Why not?
[/quote]

You mean why don't the audience at the Washboard & Fiddle give specific instruments as much scrutiny as somebody who buys and album and devotes time to listen to it? Because they're different audiences. They want different things.

The people in the local pub aren't interested in how much a bass costs, or what kind of music it's tone suits. They want to hear the classics that every band plays there every weekend, so they can stumble around, singing the wrong lyrics completely out of tune, and have a blast doing it.

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1442335050' post='2866163']
Even if its an out of control habit, and a completely mad purchase, like a potless parent spending money a on a jolly or holiday, their mind must still go through the process of justification.
[/quote]

It probably does, although also probably quite a faulty process.

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1442334619' post='2866156']
why should you need to justify something to yourself? if you wan't it you buy it, unless you can't afford it then you don't?
or am i thinking too simply?
[/quote]

Everyone justifies the purchase of something before they buy it, unless they have some kind of habitual purchasing habit.

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1442332775' post='2866126']
The OP mentions the context of recording. Although in a live situation, the "best" sounding gear probably isn't required, in a recording situation, it definitely is. Whether that's a £100 guitar off ebay, or a £2000 acoustic

Are we just abandoning this aspect of the OP? It's just recorded sound interests me much more than live
[/quote]

Different things require different gear. Recording is about the best possible sound, and the best possible version of you playing. People can and will pick your parts out of the mix and listen to them intensely. The same problem isn't faced in a local pub cover band.

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1442332787' post='2866128']
There is no confusion. You could have said 'unnecessary' which would have been fine, but you specifically said it's 'unjustifiable'. My question is, a) [color=#000000]in what way is it unjustifiable, and b} in what way should I be trying to justify it? Come to that, c) why should I need to? [/color]
[/quote]

So you don't justify your purchases (to yourself) before you buy? That seems a bit strange.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1442331771' post='2866110']
Have a look at the definition of the word unjustifiable: "Not able to be shown to be right or reasonable"
[/quote]

That doesn't say to whom, though. My wording was fine. Some posters have trawled this thread and tried to make a mockery of my original point, simply because they disagree. Like I said much earlier in the thread - I see it differently, and (some of) you don't seem to be able to handle that without getting very upset. Resorting to pedantry to try and make petty points to prove that you're right to be upset about my opinion isn't a good look for you, Beer.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442332164' post='2866114']
The differences are still there and still obvious to an experienced player. It's then down to the player to decide whether they're important.

Ultimately what you're saying is what we used to call an intermediate bass is now a beginner bass with a very attractive price tag.
[/quote]

Essentially yes.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442329445' post='2866082']
I played my Marlin Sidewinder £120 new in 1985 for 6 years. I didn't have a clue how awful it was until I got a decent job and started looking at other basses.

All the guys around me also had super cheap beaten up basses. It didn't matter. Our fans (school mates) flocked to see us. We were stars and famous (well to about 3000 people anyway )

However once we then tried 'better' basses we were sold on them and what we were playing were really not as good. Basses that had necks that stayed straight, machine heads that stayed in tune, shielding, jacks where the plugs weren't loose, bottom end, notes that had sustain etc.

Things that we didn't know about.
[/quote]

The rate of progress in production of consumer goods has been fantastic over the last 30 years, though. Where you would have struggled to get anything at all for your £120 in 1985 (which is probably more like £250 in today's money), you could now get something very well made for that. One example is a guitar that we sold by the bucket-load, and it was just £80. No, the tuners weren't fantastic, and it wasn't made by "craftsmen" in some high-tech production facility, where each pieces of wood is meticulously sanded with finer and finer grades of sandpaper until they all fit together like a glove, but it did sound good, it was made from proper tradition guitar-building materials, and they were very easy to play. When I wanted to just sit down and mess about on guitar for a while, I always picked one of the £80 guitars. Yes we had nicer guitars, but I felt that the £80 was just what a beginner guitar should be, so I stuck with it. That had the added benefit of knowing exactly what to say about it when selling it.

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1442330284' post='2866091']

No, but you've used the term "unjustifiable". As in, “[i]I [/i][color=#000000][i]think it's entirely unjustifiable today to spend £2,000 on an acoustic guitar[/i]”.[/color]
[color=#000000]I'm intrigued to know: if I wanted to spend £2k on an acoustic guitar (I don't, but bear with me), in what way should I be able to justify it, and to whom would I need to do so?[/color]
[/quote]

There must be some confusion. I think it's unjustifiable. I don't know why me holding that opinion means that you need to somehow go to some shadowy minister of justifications and seek their approval.

One simply can't state an opinion without people starting the ol' whataboutery.

[quote name='ubit' timestamp='1442301440' post='2865787']
Will this ever end ?
[/quote]

Only whenever people stop commenting about how boring, useless, or inflammatory this thread is.

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1442303428' post='2865800']
I never judge people on the kit they own and I'm frequently blown into the weeds by some youngster and a cheap J or P. More power to them I say
[/quote]

My thoughts exactly. I'm quite proud to have been able to help people starting out in music to make good choices regarding the gear they start on. It's fantastic when you see pictures on Facebook of these people a year later, still playing the same cheapo guitar, but in front of maybe 80 people.

[quote name='xgsjx' timestamp='1442319786' post='2865995']
If I was the DJ, I would have said that MJ wasn't convicted & found innocent.
Glad he never got a request for "Wanna be in my gang"!
[/quote]

Or anything by Lost Prophets...

I dunno, I think the bassline is quite funky and reminiscent of some MJ hits, and the song structure too is very similar. All I hear in this song is a lot of techniques that are quite common in MJ songs.

It's pretty commonly recognised that when it comes to pop, Michael Jackson and his producers absolutely nailed down and perfected the formula for creating pop masterpieces.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not really the typical pop consumer. I rarely listen to radio stations that play chart hits, and the odd time that I do, I normally find the music to be so over-produced and lacking any true connection as to be sickeningly off-putting. But recently I did happen upon this one, and my ears picked up. And after a moment's thought, I had worked out why it hadn't made me want to hammer a nail into my ears - It has the MJ thing going on, and in a big way.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqt8Z1k0oWQ[/media]

For my money, this is fantastic, and how pop should be done IMO.

Edit to add - 78 million hits on YouTube. It seems the MJ formula endures and conquers.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1442055448' post='2864094']
You may have noticed that in my post this morning I did not quote you or any other poster, intending more to see if some general points raised could be further explored.
[/quote]

I'm not the only person here. I thought you had made a point worth responding to, so I did. Others can decide for themselves whether to give it a response or not.

I gave you my take on the consumerism point that you raised. I do study consumer behaviour as part of my degree, and I spent the best part of 2 years selling musical equipment in the lower end of the market. If I was dismissive, I'm sorry.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1442054306' post='2864074']
I don't think you can break it down to an answer as simple as yes or no, unless you get some particular satisfaction out of being dismissive. What I'm saying is that buying products which rely on the cheaper labour of the far East and are then treated as disposable is a type of consumerism which some people are uncomfortable with. Hard to dispute that, really.
[/quote]

That isn't what I was disputing though. I wasn't disputing it mainly because I agree. However any guitar valued at more than a couple of hundred of our finest pounds would be out of that bracket of merely a throw-away starter guitar.

But it's not about where the guitar is made. Some very nice instruments are made in China. Disposability is all about price. That's why we now have the carrier bag surcharge, which has saved thousands if not millions of bags from simply going to landfill.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1442044383' post='2863960']
So what one person may view as an unjustifiable indulgence, someone else might view as a canny purchase under the old "Buy well, buy once" approach. Which one of those looks more like rampant consumerism is debatable.
[/quote]

Well, no... All the problems you listed aren't specific or exclusive to cheap instruments. All you've said is that repairing them would exceed the value of the guitar. They haven't broken because they're cheap, so this isn't a "buy well - buy once" situation.

I also don't think I've used the term unjustifiable indulgence. Indulgences are fine, IMO.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442007493' post='2863846']
They don't.

Until they use the wording better.

If someone says the Fender is better than the Squire then tell me why they're better and why I should buy one and not the other.

Where have I said that's the only acceptable answer? I've said it's as good an answer as any of the others and it's an honest answer.

Do I think the Ibanez is a better bass than all the others I've tried? No. The neck is thinner and I prefer the sound. It's easier on my wallet, ears and fingers, and mine is a nice natural finish. Of those only two are quantifiable. The fact I like the sound and think the wood looks good are just a taste thing.
[/quote]

sales is all about quantifiable difference, and having sold many thousands of pounds of cost-effective gear, I can tell you that quantifiable difference is exactly what people in that market are looking for when they purchase.

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1442005467' post='2863832']
Well no. I'm not arguing with anyone.

He actually qualifies and quantifies why the Peavy gear is better for the other band. It's cheap and inexpensive doesn't sound as good as the high end gear BUT it's easily replaced when it breaks or gets stolen.

So that's WHY it's better for them.

There are lots of posters in this thread and on the forum who'll discuss what's better but never say why it's better in a quantifiable way. Saying omething sounds better is just opinion. Saying something is easily replaced or more robust is a quantifiable fact.

That's pretty much why the discussions never end. Something cannot be better just because it sounds different.
[/quote]

Great points!

[quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1441658190' post='2860719']
[b] [url="http://basschat.co.uk/user/25488-miltyg565/"]MiltyG565[/url][/b]


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[color=#5A5A5A][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][color=#A4A4A4]Posted 02 September 2015 - 09:28 PM[/color][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#5A5A5A][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][color=#282828][size=4]I'm going sailing for a few days next week . [/size][/color][/size][/font][/color]
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I don't understand what your point is, but I'd sincerely hope that you, as a mod, haven't tried to make this thread personal, like some other contributors have.

Anyway, I'm back from my trip with the Ellen MacArthur Cancer Trust now, so I can read through all contributions with interest (which is what I'm currently doing).

[quote name='planer' timestamp='1441619082' post='2860203']
Classic Milty argument thread.

Post a predictably contentious question, then argue that pretty much everyone else is wrong.

Well done mate, you've got another notch on your bedpost.
[/quote]

You're welcome

It seems to be a natural talent. Perhaps I'll flex my muscles more in the future. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

[quote name='Big_Stu' timestamp='1441574903' post='2860032']
Simply because I like looking at so many Hiwatts in one place at a time. Behind Nod and H only half of those heads are working; in case one of them blows up. It did happen once. All of the cabs are firing though.
Jimmy's rig? All of it is going - and one of his Acoustic pre-amps set on fire once..........


[/quote]

Isn't that kind of in the days before you could put a full band through a PA, so every band playing to more than a couple of hundred needed a wall of amps completely cranked just so everyone could hear them? I wouldn't be surprised if they failed.

A lot of bands still like the "wall of amps" look, but use rack mounted amps for handiness, so then they just use replica heads and cabs on the stage that are actually hollow.

[quote name='icastle' timestamp='1441557868' post='2859801']
Are you assuming that everyone here only play in pubs?
[/quote]

Not in the slightest. I know there are many professional musicians here. I also know that many are Average Joe 9-5, and play in pubs at the weekend. I think many of them are perfectly happy playing in pubs at the weekend, and working during the week, and wouldn't feel bad about not getting more professional gigs than the local pubs. Those are the guys that I was truly asking.

Being honest with you all, I can recall two failures with my own bass. I broke a string once - it was ancient and I was treating it like a punching bag. And the battery once died during practice, although I hadn't changed the battery since I bought the bass, and always have a battery with me after that. Both caused my naivety, really.

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1441552093' post='2859727']
Thusly equipped I shall pose and sashay and swoop and randomly point at people in the audience and smile as if I know them. It's stagecraft, you see.
[/quote]

You forgot waving at the roof to make it look like your audience stretches for miles backwards and upwards

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1441544722' post='2859656']
Professional or otherwise
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I'm not involved at all.

Also you do [i]need[/i] to change your strings - they're a consumable.

Of course I recognise that what I think is required for a certain gig is not what everyone else thinks. That was the point. I don't justify these things in the same way, and I was curious to know how other people did.

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1441543595' post='2859646']
Look at it this way; you're professionally involved in a business which sells strings, right?
[/quote]

Wrong. I'm not.

Further more, I wouldn't judge anyone for having an indulgence. Like me sitting surrounded by Apple technology isn't indulgent? That would be very hypocritical of me.