BigRedX

Unless they are written down I find most lyrics at least partially unintelligible, and of those that I can understand a lot are cringe-worthy.

Here's my gig-hardened playback system:

This is the current evolution of about 20 years of using computers for gigging. Everything fits in a 3U rack case with removable front and top. All the connections are made at the patch panel at front of the rack. It might not look as neat but it's much easier than trying to find the correct sockets at the back on a darkened stage with only 10 minutes to set up and line check before you play.

The laptop is a 2012 MacPro with an SSD and 16GB RAM. It has been completely rock-solid in the 7 years I've been using it for backing playback. I use Logic Pro X (again without problems although I only run a single 3rd party plug-in and the track and plug-in count is kept to a minimum - usually 1 reverb and a couple of compressors) running a mixture of MIDI and audio. It runs under its own login that is just for live playback with WiFi and Bluetooth disabled. Interface is a Focusrite which is completely overkill in terms of I/O for our needs, however it was chosen because it is properly rack mountable in a 1U space. Before that I had a "half rack" sized interface that was impossible to secure properly in the rack and as a consequence wasn't always reliable. It provides a balanced line outputs for the PA, but we also run this through an ART DTI box first (hidden inside the rack) which completely isolates the interface from the PA feed preventing ground loops and will protect the interface should anything nasty be inadvertently be sent to it. If you are doing serious level gigs I would suggest that you invest in one of these for every stereo feed you want to send to the PA.

As far as possible all the connections to the outside world are made via XLR cables. The patch panel left to right is as follows:

Channels 3 & 4 XLR inputs. These have never been used and will probably be removed if I ever need to add more front panel outputs.

Channels 1 & 2 XLR outputs. Via the ART DTI box. These are the outputs we normally use to connect to the PA.

Channels 1 & 2 Jack outputs. Via the ART DTI box. Occasionally we encounter a sound engineer who insists on using their own DI boxes. In that case we connect to these.

Channel 3 XLR output. This provides a click track for the drummer

Channel 4 XLR output (added since this photo was taken). This provides a backing track mix for the drummer.

MIDI Out XLR. We use MIDI to automate patch changes for the live instruments and effects.

USB output. I try as far a possible not to use computer-grade connectors in a gigging environment, but this one is a necessary evil which allows me to control the backing from an Elgato Stream Deck pedal. The alternative would be something that connects wirelessly which IMO is even less reliable. I carry 2 spare USB cables and the system can run without the footswitch if absolutely necessary - it's just not as convenient and the rack can't be positioned off-stage in that case. All USB cables inside the rack are cable-tied and hot-glued in place.

Powercon connector for mains power to the rack. This splits two ways inside the rack to provide power for the laptop and interface.

The Elgato Stream Deck pedal provides all the playback functions we need live. The large middle pedal is start/pause for the playback. The right pedal triggers a macro which closes the current song and loads the next one from the Finder. The songs all have a number at the front of the song name and changing the set order is done by simply renumbering the songs. The left pedal toggles the loop function in Logic on and off which allows us to extend a selected part of a song if required.

The whole system takes less than 5 minutes to set up on stage which includes all the MIDI connections, and has proved far more reliable than the majority of other systems I see bands on the same bill as mine using. I know of at least one other band who, having seen this, have subsequently produced their own version of it.

Because it's controlled via MIDI having the Helix on stage is a bit redundant, but it serves two very important functions. Firstly because each song has its own named Preset it serves as an automated setlist. Secondly it is set up to receive MIDI sync for delays and other time-based effects the LED on the tap-tempo footswitch changes from red to blue when receiving the sync signal which gives me a visual indication that the backing is running without needing to be able to see the computer screen. We did try running dispensing with the Helix hardware and running Helix Native on the laptop, but it massively increased the load time for each song which made it a bit impractical for quick song changes. At the moment the current load time is less than it takes for the applause to die down after we finish the previous song, so we can give the impression of going seamlessly form one song to the next.  Maybe when I upgrade to an Apple Silicon laptop we'll have another look.

HTH.

Personally I wouldn't use an iPad as it IMO is too fragile for live use especially if you are going to be connecting via the Lightning or USBC connector. Also the touch screen is less than responsive to sweaty fingers.

I'll respond more late today when I have more time with details of the gig-hardened set-up I use.

What is your playback device for the backing and clicks?

Unless you are planning to have sections of the songs with no live drums that need to be synchronised to the backing, the normal practice is just for the drummer to have the click and the rest of the band plays to the drummer.

Also IME bands using backing have a tendency to put far too much on there, just because they can which in turn gives an over-complicated and messy live sound. Being in charge of the backing playback for both bands I play in, I now have a policy of turning down anything I think is unnecessary by 1dB every time we rehearse. If I get the fader down to "0" without anyone saying anything I remove the track from the backing permanently. The thing to remember is that the recorded and live versions of songs are two different things. Just because it's on the recording don't automatically mean you need to reproduce it on stage.

Also IME stereo FoH isn't always a particularly good idea as only a select few members of the audience stood in the sweet spot in the middle get the full benefit. Unless you have some very obvious panning effects, I'd consider reducing everything down to mono, but if you must have stereo backing reduce the width FoH to no more than 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock pan, and during your technical rehearsals check what it sounds like with only the left and only the right channel audible to ensure that you don't have stereo effects that sound wrong with a channel missing.

IMO some of the tunes are massively uplifting, even if the lyrics can be a bit dark.

What DAW are you using?

1 hour ago, javi_bassist said:

I'm always thinking about replacing my Stomp with the LT. The only thing that holds me back is the size of the LT.

I've got the Helix Floor which is slightly bigger than the LT. I don't think the size is a problem as it's essentially a self-contained pedal board, plus I have made the decision that if it can't be done with the Helix then live I don't need to do it.

My selections -

The old:

The new:

Mine:

Right now, for originals bands the financial entry level to getting your music out to the public has never been lower in every respect. That means the cost of decent instruments as well as making and "releasing" a recording. Of course that means that everyone who can is now doing it, so the signal to noise ratio is now greater than ever.

In the past I don't think that not having much money has ever been a real barrier to making music for me. Lack of it might have meant that I couldn't always do things exactly how I wanted, but I always found ways to at least make music and get it out to the public. Some of it might have meant making lifestyle choices that others might not find palatable, but those of us who a truly driven to make music  will always find ways of doing so.

What's your amp and cab?

IME you need a clean amp otherwise the drive sounds from the effects can have a tendency to clash with the drive of the amp. Also set your amp's EQ to as close to neutral as is possible and use the Helix to shape the sound. Whenever I hear musicians struggling with multi-effects often the problem is that the amp and cab is getting in the way with conflicting EQs and drives. For me my amp has been just about making me audible as far as possible and anything else is an unwanted side effect.

I'd start with just the Obsidian 7000 module. I know that Dark Glass devices as supposed to be aimed at "metal"  sounds, but for me this is by far the most comprehensive set of drive and EQ possibilities.

20 minutes ago, TimR said:

Most of the classic rock songs that were tuned down, we just play in standard tuning. No one has commented. 

That's what the dad rock band I was in did. However a couple of the bass lines were surprisingly easier to play at the recorded pitch in standard tuning. Having to transpose up a semi-tone made then slightly harder...

12 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

Played there a few times and the SE used to be first class but he retired and lately the people they've brought in haven't been up to the mark in our opinion.

Hope you didn't go round the buses only lanes on that street. The restricted lanes are a pain in the a** and when trying to find venue you get easily distracted and miss the many many signs on that street. 

We've decided not to play there again for those reasons, sound isn't great and parking and traffic management is a nightmare.

Shame as it used to be one of the best rock venues in Glasgow.

Dave

The SE we had was good and we sounded excellent on stage and FoH, but he arrived late and was overly methodical in setting up (slow). If he'd turned up on time it wouldn't have been a problem and he could have taken as long as he wanted.

We'd been warned about the bus lanes and took great pains to avoid them. The problem was the loading instructions were incomplete so we didn't know we needed to turn off Midland Street to find the loading entrance, and it wasn't helped by road works and barriers around the turning.

Next gig for In Isolation is in Coventry at The Arches Venue, on Saturday 25th May.

Chaos Bleak in support:

Unless the lest Sei models are completely new designs, I really can't see the point in playing one first if you already familiar with the concept.

When I had my Sei (Off-set Flamboyant 5-string fretless) made about 15 years ago, it was made specifically for me to my guidelines. The personal nature of the bass was brought home to me when I went to collect the finished instrument. While I was waiting for Martin to make some last-minute adjustments, I gave me another recently completed 5-string fretless Sei to play. The two instruments could hardly have been more different in feel, playability, and sound. I'm not that brilliant a player compared with the typical Sei user, but I even I could tell - the one made for me felt perfect. The other, while really nice, just didn't feel as though it fitted me.

25 minutes ago, TimR said:

Maybe if you're putting together a tribute act, occasionally you'll have to make compromises. It's hard enough to get decent bass players, let alone ones that are available and can/want to play the material. Then you're asking them to dress up and play a certain instrument.

It's hardly difficult to dress like Joy Division era Peter Hook. A light coloured long sleeve shirt with the sleeves partially rolled up and medium grey trousers. If you don't already have something close to that in your wardrobe, you could probably get it for about £10 from Primark. 

It is my experience that some musicians just don't get the concept of band image. We used to have the same problem with stand-in drummers and guitarists for The Terrortones. While we didn't expect them to get leathered up, although it would be great if they did, the guidelines were "wear black - no obvious band or brand logos and no trainers for the guitarists". You'd be amazed at how many couldn't (or didn't want to) follow a simple instruction like that. Whenever I have played with new musicians I always ask about band image before the first gig and if there is one will conform to it.

35 minutes ago, TimR said:

I wonder if you were a drummer whether you'd pick up on 'drummer type' differences? 

I already did in my OP.

34 minutes ago, vmaxblues said:

Basically Bass into Helix, Helix to bass amp & cab, no additional pedals.

So your Helix is just for effects. Which ones do you want to use?

24 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

The thing I’m taking from this is that he didn’t bring his own rig. Even if I knew there was a house rig, I’d bring mine.

We were told by both the venue and promotor that there was a drum kit and a guitar and bass amp at the venue which we could use and we knew the tribute band would be using the house kit. We brought our backline because it doesn't take up much space in the transport or on stage, but used the house kit, as it's generally more convenient at multi-band gigs. Just as well really as "backstage" was through the audience and down a flight of stairs which would have been a nightmare for shifting drum kits and backline. TBH their bass player probably sounded better going through my Peter Hook Helix patch into the PA then he would had a brought his own (probably very metal) rig.

What's your whole signal chain? Any more effects or just the Helix? Are you going into an amp or direct to the PA?

In Isolation were at Ivory Blacks in Glasgow. Probably the most convoluted load-in I've encountered in recent years with the instructions we'd been given by the promotor being somewhat incomplete, so we drove around the "block" twice before I jumped out to ask the venue where we were supposed to go. Having road works obscuring the entrance to the back alley we needed to be on didn't help.

The venue itself was good with a decent sized stage and impressive old-school looking PA. Sound engineer was late and was very laid back in his approach, so although it ended up sounding good on stage and FoH we finished the sound check with seconds to spare before the doors opened. We were playing somewhat early and the turn-out was still quite sparse when we started, although there was a decent sized crowd by the end who had turned up to see the headlining band - a Joy Division tribute act. I'm going to start another thread about this because I wasn't entirely convinced by them and I wondering if as a musician I'm just being too picky. 

Even so plenty of people told us they enjoyed the set afterwards (there was one bloke who actually cheered when we started the song "Not Noticing") and we covered our expenses for the long trek from Nottingham. Next weekend should be a lot easier as we're in Coventry with Chaos Bleak.

I'm starting this thread because one of my bands shared the stage with a tribute act at the weekend and TBH I was less than impressed with the whole set up. I'm wondering if it's just me as a musician, and the fact that one of the original band was a massive influence on my playing, being too picky; or if I'm justified in my concerns.

First off I do have to say that I'm not really interested in tribute bands (or covers bands in general) as either a musician or a punter so that might be colouring my views. Over the years I've been lucky enough to be able to see most of the bands that I really like in the days when they were still young and hungry, and for those that I missed there are always the records or CDs, and even now there are new exciting and interesting bands, whose music appeals to me, appearing all the time, so I don't really need the nostalgia.

The band in question were a Joy Division tribute. I had a chance to see Joy Division at what turned out to be their penultimate gig, but turned it down in order to go to Sheffield to see Vice-Versa and Clock DVA, thinking that there would always be another opportunity to see Joy Division but I might not get the chance to see Vice-Versa again. How wrong I was... Also anyone who has seen or heard my band recently will probably have spotted that Peter Hook continues to be a massive influence on my bass playing.

So for the tribute...

The good. The singer had Ian Cutis nailed in pretty much every respect - the voice and the look complete with the thousand yard stare and manic "arm dancing". He is obviously the star of the show and rightly so.

However the rest of the band not so much. While the drummer and guitars had the correct Man At C&A look, the bass player had either missed the memo or just hadn't bothered. He looked like he'd stepped out of some late 90s nu-metal band complete with inappropriate metal band bass. While I don't expect obsessive attention to detail with the instruments, if you are tributing someone with an iconic look and performance then IMO you really need to make more of an effort at least with the clothes. I don't know if he was a stand-in for their regular bass player (I don't think so), but absolutely nothing about him including his playing style was in any way reminiscent of Peter Hook. He may have played mostly the right notes but the feel was wrong and this was especially noticeable on Transmission and Love Will Tear Us Apart. If I was in this band I'd have been embarrassed to have been seen on stage with him.

I think for this band in particular they had made the basic mis-assumption that Joy Division songs are easy to play. Admittedly by the time of Ian Cutis' demise the band were still quite basic in their general musical abilities, but they had each developed a unique playing style that can make covering the songs properly less than straight forward. So while the singer's performance was obviously the product of hours in front of the mirror, the others really hadn't done their homework. The guitar was much too distorted most of the time, and the drummer was noticeably struggling with the 16ths hi-hat patterns and the more up-tempo songs. For all his other faults the bass player had a reasonably authentic tone, but only because the venue's bass amp wasn't working and so I let him use my bass rig and had him going through my slightly modified version of Peter Hook's actual "Salford Rules" Helix Patch. Otherwise he would have been going straight into a standard bass amp or direct to the PA with no effects.

So as a musician, a fan of the original band and their bass player in particular, am I being too critical? The rest of the audience seemed to like them well enough. As an audience member what should I expect from a tribute band? Should it be as close as possible to going to see the "real thing" both musically and visually? I'm happy for the bands to take advantage of advances in technology to make the performance sound better. I certainly don't want the typical late 70s and early 80s live experience of ropy FoH sound and almost inaudible vocals that plagued most of the gigs I went to in smaller venues at the time. However I'm someone who thinks that the visual aspect of a gig is probably as important as the musical one. If the tribute band haven't made the effort to at least wear the right clothes, does that not simply make them a covers bands with a very limited repertoire?

I know that there's a number of you on here who play in tribute bands. How far musically and visually do you think you need to go? What does your audience think? Are you genuinely fans of the original band or is it just another paying gig? Other than my gripes about the band that started this all off, I'm trying not to be critical but to understand what a tribute band audience actually want.

I currently play in two goth/post-punk bands, say to more...

In the 80s I was in a synth-pop band a while the tunes were up-tempo and some were even in a major key, the lyrical matter was unrelentingly dark. Songs about war, suicide, awful religious attitudes to disability, drug addiction, stalking and other less than healthy obsessions and generally futility of existence.

1 hour ago, Reggaebass said:

I was quite surprised how expensive the Gibsons were, the ripper was over £400 , I’ll show a pic later 

One of the main features of Fenders is that they were designed to be able to be made (and sold) cheaper than Gibsons and Rickenbackers.

If this bass is in otherwise good original condition - especially if it it still has the Shaftesbury branded TRC - it is probably worth more than £100. Unless you intend to keep it forever and gig it regularly, any modifications you make (especially non-reversible ones) will devalue it should you ever want to resell it and you'll probably find yourself mocked in the eBay forum on this site should you do so.

Without seeing the actual bass it's impossible to give a 100% definitive answer, but I'd consider getting the pickup issues sorted out in the least intrusive way possible, and if it then turns out to be not for you, you should make a decent profit when you sell it which will allow you to get something that you will use.

Paging @Bassassin

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

Schallers are legendary for having issues. Dunlops are not.

And just to prove there is always an exception to the rule: I've been fitting Schaller Straplocks to my instruments since the mid 80s and have never had one fail. I've owned one bass that had Dunlops fitted from the factory and one of them failed terminally within 3 months of buying the bass. They were replaced with a set of Schallers before the next gig.

The majority of problems with Schallers that I have seen reported are down to either user error or expecting poorly-made counterfeit items to withstand the same use as the real thing.