Rick's Fine '52

I’ll PM you with links to guards.

A sonic blue would have had a white guard, and in my opinion don’t look right with tort. Some spitfire guards look ok, others anything but, so be careful there. There are some nice aged nitrate mint green reproduction guards available. 

Gotoh reverse tuners are good reissue versions, nice period correct long stems. They aren’t the cheapest though. They do some res-o-lite versions too, which are excellent, I have them on a build i’ve recently finished which is for sale, there’s a link in my signature, so you can see what they look like, and of course they’re very light.

31 minutes ago, police squad said:

are they DC built? They look fab

No, PM'd with details, and pics.

We obviously share the same taste in basses!!  😉

These are small in comparison to many of the offerings here, but all valve nonetheless, full set of pre-CBS Fender Bassman's;

1952 TV Bassman (Only made for 4 months)

1953 WP Bassman (Only made for 7 months)

1959 4x10 Bassman

1962 Blonde Piggyback Bassman

1964 Black Piggyback Bassman

Bump, for a relic bass that actually looks original, not something you can say very often, if at all. 

Very well documented prototype Jazz that one. It was listed at the end of last year. Fully legit, and in most Fender books. In my opinion its well priced considering its significance, and uniqueness. 

This is a new feature, and agree its annoying, what I have noticed though, is when you go to the 'ended' item, at the top, in a blue heading bar, above the item title, it says; 

"The listing you’re looking for is no longer available. Check out this similar item we found for you"

If you hover and click over the word 'listing', you will notice it is blue, and is actually a hyperlink to the original item, and not a similar one. 

Not sure how I discovered this, but it works. 

Here's my pair, UK hand made from scratch, no Chinese crap, and not cheap either. I couldn't decide on WB or not, so decided to have both!

4005 Fireglo, chequerboard binding to rear, full width crushed pearl inlays, 60's spec throughout. 

4005 WB, Mapleglo, plain white binding to front and back. Both full 60's spec in every way. 

March '64 would be the spaghetti decal with 4 pat numbers. The transition was late summer '64. 

Here you will see an April '64 Precision (Refinished), with the Spaghetti decal, your March tribute bass would precede this;

https://www.vintageandrare.com/product/Fender-Precision-Bass-1964-Blue-68661

Good luck with the Project, you'll enjoy it, I've done a few, and its good fun. As you've already found, the hardest part will be getting a veneer rosewood board. Others reference points for March '64 would be clay dots still used, they changed to pearloid in late '64, and the tuners still didn't sit flush, the divots weren't milled in the back of the headstock until late '64 also. White guards were also nitrate in March '64, and not the vinyl which came in later that year, some good aged repro's are available though.

Look forward to seeing your progress.

I don't think early 80's Fenders do have a bad reputation. 

Some 70's instruments can be heavy and there are some with QC issues, but the 80's ones seem much better. Referred to as the 'Dan Smith' era, where he shook the place up a bit.

I think the reason they haven't risen in value in the way that even some poor 70's ones have, is because they were remodelled, and no longer had the vintage vibe, something that traditional Fender players have always looked for. For example they introduced a one-piece white guard on Jazz basses, coupled with the black numbered knobs, the truss rod access was now at the headstock end, and the decal looked cheap and nasty. Maple necks with black dots on Jazzes didn't help either. I think many players didn't feel it was in keeping with Fender tradition, even though the quality probably improved from the late 70's.

Add to this the fact that at the same time (Well, early '82 anyway), Fender introduced their Vintage Reissue range, which were excellent quality, and had the vintage vibe, and were probably the same price at the time. Fender Japan had also started their own range of Vintage Reissues, which were even better, and even cheaper.

I don't think they are bad instruments, or have a bad reputation, I just think many of the models of that time have never been particularly fashionable.

If unsure, take someone with you who knows, simple as that. Don't pass up the chance of owning a dream bass for yourself because of a lack of knowledge. You can always agree to meet at a reputable dealer, by appointment, and have it checked out together. It will be worth a small appraisal fee for the peace of mind.  Ensure truss rod has spare, and most importantly, it plays nice, and you like it!!  

Good luck!

Very rough guide

Refin veneer   £3-4k

Refin slab   £3-5k

Original veneer  £7k+

Original slab    £9k+

Custom Colours can be anything, dependent on the colour.

Guides based on sunburst finish, and excellent condition. Refin based on excellent quality nitro burst with correct shading.

26 minutes ago, MoJoKe said:

 

I have an identical one, with big "Fender", and while I still have the original white plate (and the original inspection tag!), mine sports an anodised guard...  Definitely looks great, but I also like the white...

I second that guarantee! I bought mine new in '82, and used it exclusively for most of the 80s (until I could afford a Wal!) then it spent a good few years under the bed having migrated to 5 strings, but I recently did a 60s theatre tour and used it as my main bass.  It was like playing an old friend, these are without doubt (IMHO!) the best and lightest precisions I have ever played.  Pretty much anyone else who plays it immediately makes me an offer or tries to make off with it!  Mine will have to be torn from my cold dead fingers...  You will NOT be disappointed.  GLWTS!

Agreed on all counts. 

They definitely look better with gold guards, as they should have been, and I've seen many that have been swapped over, which is why I don't know why they didn't just make them with anodized guards. White guards make no sense. They are certainly more desirable with the original white guards still attached though, like this one.

Playing wise, again, fabulous, nobody will be disappointed with these 1st batch JV's.

Very nice Si, rare to find a dot neck at all in this condition, especially with the case and covers.

Very John Paul Jones. GLWTS

Thanks for the comments, it looks even better in the flesh.

6 minutes ago, Belka said:

Look, you know more about vintage instrument prices than I do, and you're obviously involved in the trade in some way,

Dave Markee's custom colour 1964 Jazz has been on sale in Vintage and Rare for years at less than half the price of this.  

 

I have no connection with the trade at all, I'm a private player/fan/buyer/collector. I work in a totally different sector.

With custom colours, its all about which one. For example LPB or black are a very different ball game to sonic blue, or burgundy mist.

Personally, I don't like Custom Colours that much, I think Fenders look best in sunburst, or early ones in blonde.

12 minutes ago, Belka said:

Sorry Rick, but I have to disagree with you there. Read what George Gruhn has to say about it: 

George Gruhn:

I have been collecting and dealing fretted instruments since 1963 and have operated my shop since January 1970. During that time I have seen many twists and turns, peaks and valleys in the vintage and used instrument market as well as dramatic change in the market for new instruments. There have been times when prices were going up at a rapid rate and other periods in which they were plateaued and other times in which prices were falling due to a variety of factors.

From 1959 through 1963 during the great folk music boom, prices of acoustic instruments were rapidly rising while prices of used and vintage electric guitars were very low due to general lack of demand. It should be borne in mind, however, although prices of acoustic instruments were rapidly rising, they were rising from extremely low prices to prices that were beginning to approach the equivalent cost of a new guitar. People were not paying super premium prices over and above the cost of a new one to get a vintage instrument.

In the mid-1960s the folk boom was winding down, but the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and other rock bands hit, tremendously increasing the demand for guitars both acoustic and electric and many students on college campuses nationwide discovered the appeal of R&B music, and soon thereafter psychedelic rock. Prices of vintage electric guitars soared when some of the premier players discovered the merits of vintage guitars, resulting in rapid escalation of prices of pre-CBS Fender Telecasters and Stratocasters as well as original 1950s Les Paul Gibson models such that some of these instruments increased in value sufficiently that vintage examples were bringing more money than an equivalent new electric guitar in the case of Fenders. Since the single cutaway Gibson Les Paul Junior and Special models were discontinued in mid 1958, the sunburst Les Paul Standard at the end of 1960, and the black Les Paul triple pickup Custom in very early 1961, there was no equivalent new Gibson in the mid-to late 1960s, but original examples were bringing more money than most new Gibson electric guitars at that time.

From 1969 through 1975, during the great folk rock era, rock ‘n roll money was injected into the acoustic market and acoustic and electric guitar prices escalated rapidly with many instruments costing significantly more money than a similar looking new example.

Prices stagnated from 1966 through the mid-1980s and the fretted instrument music scene was at best lethargic. This was a very difficult time for music dealers due to the fact that the baby boomers had largely dropped out of the market and not yet reentered after their midlife crisis. Inflation was very high, and prime rate interest by 1981 was over 20%. This was an extremely tough time for musicians as well as musical instrument dealers.

Market conditions turned around considerably in the mid-1980s when baby boomers re-entered the market and prices escalated significantly, although they slowed down from 1993 through 2002 due in part to the fact that during the so called “Dot-Com” era it was more profitable to put money in the stock market than into guitars.

From mid-2002 through early 2007 prices of many vintage collectible fretted instruments escalated at an unprecedented pace such that prices of some of these instruments went up tenfold in a matter of 3 & 1/2 years. This pace was unsustainable and came to a crashing halt in late 2007.

There are essentially three different types of buyers for fretted instruments: utility tool users, true collectors, and speculators. These are three very different types of buyers who have different goals and motivations. Utility tool users often are expert musicians, but they are not greatly concerned with age of an instrument or its total originality. Collectors are interested in having a coordinated collection with a theme and are very willing to pay more money than a utility tool user for the right item. Speculators frequently have more money than either utility tool users or collectors, but their ultimate goal is not to keep an instrument for more than two years before selling it. They target instruments which they feel are going up in value such that they can pay full current retail at the time of their purchase and sell at a profit after holding the instrument for a couple of years.

When the economy hit the skids in late 2008, many musicians simply held onto their instruments, but many musicians who had no “rainy day cash fund” to help them get through hard times were forced to sell. Prices dropped dramatically such that after three years many instruments had fallen to less than half their price at the peak of the bubble in the beginning of 2007. The speculators had dropped out and to this day many have not returned to this market

Recently, the market is showing some signs of revival, but many instruments still are bringing very significantly less today than they were a decade ago when the market was at its peak. I used to claim that I did not have a crystal ball to help me see where things were going, but I corrected that recently by purchasing a 10-inch crystal ball, which I now have on the small table in front of my desk. When I look through it, it is evident that the world is upside down since crystal balls act like a lens, which flips the image. In summary, prices at the moment appear to have stabilized, but many very fine rare vintage instruments are significantly harder to sell today than they were 20 years ago. What is evident, however, is that the true golden era instruments such as pre-World War II Martin and Gibson acoustics made during the 1930s and 1950s electric guitars by makers such as Gibson, Fender, and Gretsch are viewed by collectors as the most desirable and the best investments.

Today the market is under stress due to changing demographics with aging baby boomers, millennials who do not share the boomers interest in vintage instruments, competition from eBay, Reverb, Craig’s list, and Amazon, a market flooded with highly discounted new instruments due to overproduction by manufacturers, and fierce competition from brick-and-mortar dealers as well as online sales. All my crystal ball tells me at the moment is the world has gone topsy-turvy upside down.

Then we must agree to disagree. George has been around a while, and what he says may be true in his patch. I think Norman would have a different view though personally. Anyway, that is certainly not the case in the UK, with regards to Vintage Fender basses. I know, because I have been actively involved in this market for over 2 decades. "Prices peaked in 2008", simply nonsense, anyone in the market will tell you that, and evidence it. 

Highly discounted new instruments bringing prices down? - Since when did that affect the market for 1950's instruments?  

Sorry, don't agree at all, as the facts demonstrate that simply isn't true. This is typical dealer speak by someone who will benefit from lots of people going to his store wanting to offload instruments. 

In addition, there are probably 1000x more quality vintage instruments on the market at any one time in the US compared with the UK, so prices in the US will always be more affected by economic change etc, as there is always more supply than over here.

Couldn't be more wrong. Ask any UK dealer if prices have slowed, or sales prices peaked in 2008!  I've doubled and nearly trebled some instruments in that time, as has everyone else!

Anyway, this is someone else's thread, maybe you could start one about the vintage market being dead, that would suit me, as people will hopefully be selling off in their droves.

4 minutes ago, discreet said:

Off the top of my head I thought it was 1987. Dammit, now I'm going to have to find out...

My bad, I had to check then too, I saw an advert for a just released 25th anniversary, but the post was in 2012!!    oops, don't mind me......

Lots of wrongness there, anyway, didn't the mexico plant start in 1993?

70's basses (And guitars of course), are rising in value simply because the 50's and 60's ones are doing the same, but at a sharper rate. There will always be a market for vintage instruments, and people will fall into their budget bracket.

When 60's basses were more affordable, nobody really wanted the 70's basses, because the difference 15 years ago  between a 66J and a 72J , was probably  around 20%, so people paid more for a better playing bass that was lighter, more desirable, and would also be an investment on return (Certainly not losing). The difference now between a 66 and a 72 Jazz, could be as much as 70%, so it pushes even the 60's CBS stuff out of the reach of some, who still want a 'vintage' Fender, so they resort to early 70's basses. 

The pattern has been the same for a long while now, although pre-CBS original finish gear has certainly taken off over the past decade. Many people who always wanted a vintage Fender when younger, find themselves with maybe more disposable income as they are older, maybe kids left home etc, and are now in the market, this is certainly something I've seen. And of course, desirable basses are less than half the price of their 6 string equivalents!

The market over the past 10 years continues to show great returns on purchase prices back in 2008, with many of the more desirable models from the late 50's and early 60's more than doubling in that time, some prices have trebled on certain examples I've seen.

The answer is always to buy something that is a good player, and sounds as you want it to, after that, the most original you can afford, and finally, if you cant decide between 2 or 3, pick the one that would be the best investment. I haven't seen any 'vintage' instruments not increase in value, and some significantly. If you aren't interested in investment at all, then I'd recommend a pre-CBS refin, with otherwise original parts. It will give you the vibe you may be looking for, for less than half the cost. It wont give you the satisfaction or pleasure an original one has, every time you open the case, but its horses for courses.

CITIES is also pushing up prices for rosewood board models, as they become more complicated to send internationally (Its actually not really that bad, you just need the paperwork which can be obtained for around £70), and therefore desirable ones already on these shores become more in demand.

By the way, the one referred to in the opening thread, is a particularly rare custom colour, one of the rarest in fact, add to the fact it has a matching headstock, and its incredible condition, makes for a very rare piece indeed. With the rarest items, there is often no yard stick, or recent sale prices to gauge by, so any seller will naturally start high. I think its quite a high price, especially for what is technically a CBS bass (Albeit with some pre-CBS features), but if you're a Geddy Lee, or someone with some dough, and you want one of the rarest custom colour basses, you won't wait for another, because it probably wont ever turn up. One things for sure in vintage world (Not just guitars, any collectable), if you want something, don't hesitate, because the rare ones don't normally hang around.

If you have around £1500 to spend, which I'm guessing from some of the remarks, I'd go for a first 6 months, 1982 American Vintage P or J (V00*** serial), or a first series export 1982 JV (Large Fender, small Squier decal (JV00***). Those basses are fantastic to play, sound very vintage, will hold their money, have the rarity factor, and are 36 years old themselves now,so tick lots of boxes,a nd you'll certainly get change too!

Good luck with the hunt and trying different things out, that's the best bit!

JPJ played a slab board 3-knob ‘61, same year and spec as the one Jaco modded. JPJ still has it, it rattles too, needs setting up! 

1 minute ago, sblueplanet said:

A gold anodised guard would be a nice addition 

I never understood why they made these with white guards when they were a clear ‘57 reissue. All the other JV models of this initial few months were extremely period accurate, and this was certainly an odd omission.

Nice, this model is still the missing link in my JV Squier Series trio. GLWTS

Great value rig for someone, really clean too, if I had the space i’d love that, bet it sounds fab!

Another bank holiday bump.