Bilbo

What's that book, Pete?

I have listened to Jeff Berlin's 'metronome rant' for over a decade. I kind of know what he means about time but I think he is missing a trick. I think the device has merit in that it teaches you, as a developing player, to LISTEN to another sound source whilst you are determining the validity of your own 'time'. In short, if you are playing straight quarter notes solo, I have no doubt that they will be in time (as per Jeff's 'numpty from the audience' trick) but, unless you have something to refer to, you will not be able to determine whether or not your RELATIVE time is good (are you racing, dragging etc).

The metronome is no substitute for another player (because other players time shifts and you need to react to that too) but it is a perfectly credible place to start. It gives you someting to bounce if in the early days. A drum machine is probably better but a metronome, especially set to play on beats 2 & 4, can really help you find your groove. As someone said, its one tool of many and I wouldn't recommend anyone become a slave the the thing but I wouldn't dismiss it either (nor would vibes player Gary Burton, one of the world's greatest improvising musicians).

As I said on another post, I used to think JB was the best but, as I have matured, I have found him to be a very cold player, no soul, and I struggle with his sound - his 'genre' samples of bass playing (free with Bass Player magazine way back) were idiomatically uninformed (his 'rock' lines were embarrassing) and his 'train' effects on 'In Harmony's Way' are just naff. His chordal songs are clever excutions of bad material. He knows a lot (I particularly agree with his views on the value of proper musical education) but he don't know everything and 'his' way is most certainly not the only way and nor is it, in my view, the best.

Whatever our education, we all find our own path. That is why we all sound different.

Swapped an Ibanez Artist 6 string solid body (guitar - kind of SG shape) for an acoustic once - made sense at the time but I have long wished I hadn't (still have the acoustic but never play it)!

A word of caution from the Suffolk ignoramus....

After years of losing out jazz gigs to double bass players (and of being a genuine admirer of people like Paul Chambers, Dave Holland, Marc Johnson and Ron Carter), I decided I would have a go. I didn't have a lot of money so found an independent dealer in Surrey who sold me a, get this, half-size bass (I am 6' 1'' tall). I was so up for playing the thing and wanted one NOW that I fell for it. I had tried enquiring elsewhere but couldn't get anything for the £500 I had to spend so I though, 'Aah, well. At least it will get me started'.

Did it f***.

Firstly, I tried to get a classical teacher but they were all REALLY elitist, treated me like an arrogant pretender (I wasn't, I just wanted to learn) because I was over 30, and, because I couldn't get to them between 9-5 Monday to Friday, they couldn't meet my needs. I was too far out (geographically) to benefit from London teachers and decided to go it alone. It can't be that hard, right?

Bad mistake.

Bad technique.

Bad carpel tunnel syndrome.

Had to put the instrument down after 18 months, after playing only two gigs on the damn thing, and sold it back to the same dealer (for the money I paid for it, to be fair). I couldn't play for more than 15 minutes before the pain set in. Fortunately, my hand/arm problems didn't overly effect my electric bass playing so all was not lost but my little adventure with the double bass continues to give me some odd RSI type pains that, whilst not unduly bad, have resulted in my having to use an ergonomic computer keyboard due to difficulties with my left wrist.

In short, bassbloke, I would listen to Merchant. He sounds like he knows what he is taking about and may save you some considerable pain and frsutration later on. I wish I could have spoken to him before I went down the dead end I took. I urge patience and dedicated research into the field you are entering. A little time spent now will save you many years of wasted time later on.

My main regret is that my inability to deal with the bull fiddle has denied me the opportunity to play many genre's of music that, had I had a more positive experience, I could have enjoyed (classical music, certain shows, some jazz etc). I try very hard to use the electric bass for 'serious' musics (primarily jazz orientated) but, despite my ambitions, the electric is rarely called where the double bass is traditionally featured and I am condemned to a musical life populated by realtively superficial amatuers.

All because Basschat didn't exist in 1993!!

I heard this track first in about 1980 and still drool every time I hear it! 'Shadows and Light' is, for me, one of the best live LPs of all time (for some readon, the best tracks are missing off the CD). The DVD has all of the tracks on it. Mitchell, Jaco, Pat Metheny, Lyle Mays, Michale Bracker and Don Alias - WHAT A BAND!! That took me to the 'Mingus' LP (yes, vinyl). Great bass from our man - lots of space, no overplaying and funky as a mofo!

But both versions of 'The Dry Cleaner From Des Moines' (a Mingus composition with lyrics by Mitchell) are fantastic. Go listen on Amazon for a taster - you'll buy it, I guarantee!!

'A player with a pile of stock licks who sits waiting for a chance to show what they can do stands out a mile in a collective improv setting - like a footballer who never passes'.

OUCH!!

:wacko:

I'm going back to the woodshed somewhat chastened, Steve. As hard as I try not to be, I AM that tosser! Probably best I don't get a 9-string! I'm already too ego-centric.

I understand that Keith Jarrett thinks any music over and above that of the solo performer will inevitably require compromise. I guess its is true in a way but I see music as a communal activity because, even if you are a solo performer, the moment the music is out there as sound, its beauty is in the ear of the beholder. There are now two people involved so the debate begins anew.

I think the role of the innovator is a lot easier to take a perspective on with hindsight. Remember Stanley Jordan - whatever happened to him? For every innovator who succeeds in moving the art form forward, there are 1,000s taking it up all sorts of blind alleys. Who is to say who is right, other than a concensus? I just think that the debate is more important than the outcome!

Hi Geordie - Felixstowe jazzer here! Welcome to Basschat! Never heard of any of your favourites but I guess you'll have never heard of mine either!!!

A flat - it makes more sense as an A flat major scale than G sharp.

Simply put, if you think all seven note (octave) scales should have an A B C D E F G. A G sharp scale reads G sharp, A Sharp, C, C sharp, D sharp, E shap G, G sharp. So it has 2 cs and 2 Gs and would be a nightmare to read using conventional staff notation.

If you make it A flat you have and A flat, B flat, C, D flat, E flat, F, G A flat. Much better in my head and on paper!

Make sense?

So, its a D flat pentatonic (penta = five notes including the root (tonic), hence D flat, E flat, F (major 3rd so its a major pentatonic), A flat, B flat. 5 notes = pentatonic). In fact, most pentatonics work against more than one major scale and a D flat pentatonic is equally useful against both a D flat (C sharp) scale, a G flat (F sharp) scale and an A flat (G sharp) major scale. So we are all right!!

Crazykiwi - I think that most popular music, as it is presented in the mainstream media, IS s**t. I don't believe that as an absolute (so don't be coming back at me for that) but, if you watched primetime tv and listened to the radio between the hours of 8 a.m. and 9 p.m., no piece of music would ever last more than 3.20, no-one over 25 would ever sing, no-one would ever play a solo, most genres wouldn't exist etc, etc.

Ask yourself this; how much of the music I like did I hear first on the radio or television? I bet its a small percentage.

My point is that consensus is sometimes a great way of ensuring mediocrity.

I started it!

I HAVE learned some stuff I didn't know and seen some players I previously hadn't (which has, in turn, put me in touch with some more etc) so I got a lot out of the debate. I have seen some great young players and been inspired to look at practising again (complacency had set in). I won't be looking for a 9-string in the near future but nor will I discount them as a credible tool in the production of music.

Just a little point to consider. Progress is never achieved by people who agree - only by people who argue, discuss and debate. If everyone agreed, there would be no need to innovate. Don't ever settle for concensus, for the middle ground. That's why national television is so sh**.

Actually the pain thing is a, err, pain. I get all sorts of aches and pains as I get older; shoulders aching, hands and arms sore etc. I don't get blisters but my finger tips do get sore when I play too intensely. I guess the problem relates to freelancing and doing some gigs that are a breeze and then, intermittently, doing a longer gig or one with harder, faster grooves or more solo space. Your body doesn't recover as quickly as you get older and things that hurt, hurt longer!

What I do notice, however, is that, if its a good gig, musically satisfying/exciting etc, I get less pains. I wonder if its a posture thing? If I am bored/disatisfied, I slouch and the pains kick in. I'll have a think about that!!

Carry on...

I can wiggle my ears and play the bass with my Dad's teeth. He says they don't taste too good when he put's them back in tho'.

Suzi Quatro...

I guess the answer is ' as far as is economical'. If someone will pay me to play in Australia and will fully fund the trip, I'll do it. If it costs more to travel there than I get paid, it would have to be a REALLY special gig (I have done good gigs for nothing if the music works but I wouldn't do a commercial gig that left me out of pocket). I did a jazz ferstival in Vienne (nr Lyon) once - all expenses paid but no profit margin. Great experience.

It's a variation on a simple C sharp pentatonic starting on the F but missing out the A sharp until the second octave. Or a minor sixth arpeggio with an added 11th? It would read better as flats not sharps (i.e. D flat not C sharp) but I guess typing flats is harder!

Excellent thread, Steve. A perfect foil for YouTube excesses.

First thoughts....

Messiaen's 'Quartet for the End of Time' - written by Olivier Messiaen when he was a German prisoner of war in Silesia - the only instrumentalists available were a violinist, cellist and clarinet player. Messiaen wrote a piano part although, at the time of composing, he did not have access to a piano. One did turn up later but it was out of tune and many of the notes stuck. Furthermore, the cello had one string missing! The first performance was given in freezing cold weather at Stalag VIII on 15th January, 1941, to an audience of 5,000 prisoners. Messiaen later said 'Never have I been heard with as much attention and understanding'.

Eva Cassidy's version of 'Over The Rainbow' - like many people, I had never heard of her when I saw/heard it first as a video on Top Of The Pops 2. She was already dead by then. Despite my being a card carrying jazz nazi, it was a jaw dropping moment. A particularly profound performance of a well known piece of music.

Anything by the bass-less Paul Motion trio Steve mentioned. Saw them live years ago. They really DO sound like that!

Drummer Bill Bruford and pianist Patrick Moraz 'Music For Piano and Drums' - the best of both of them.

Pat Methenys 'A Map Of The World' - solo guitar & strings - beautiful. The whole soundtrack for the film (a little bit of bass but never more than functional) was written and recorded in a fortnight.

Ceiri Torjussen's Flute Octet (you can find it on www.ceiri.com) - Ceiri is an old friend who is now working in Hollywood writing film orchestrations.

I like where this thread has taken me.

Nice one, Steve.

Been using the Metro for 5 years or more. It's the bollocks. I have a great and consistent sound and many people have commented on it. Yes, it i heavy but I can cope (I am 6' 1" and 15 stone so I guess it'a all relative!!).

The eq is so versatile and I use the combo for jazz, latin, rock and funk gigs aswell a shows and an occasional big band. It does everything I ask it to do and coasts through it. I have never neeeded to put it anywhere near its loudest and, frankly, would fear for my chest cavity if I did.

Recomended 100%

Been here, done that (projectile) but I had to clean it up myself. Spent the rest of the gig sleeping in the car. Still got paid tho'.

VERY long night!

Gary Willis's right hand technique is a whole other science. His video (Progressive Bassics) is a revelation although his technique is SOOOO specific, it is not easily embraced by people who are established two finger players.

Alternate fingering is a simplistic idea as the change/skipping of strings requires you to lead with a different finger depending on the line you are playing. It is a case of experimenting with whatever resutls in a clear and confidently played note with a good tone (not much is written about the relationship between finger technique and tone on electric bass - on double bass it is known to all but define your sound but, on electric, it is less well reported how deep its contribution is to your fundamental tone.

(Actually, much as I respect and admire Willis, I don't like his tone - too 'processed')

TM Stevens line on Joe Cocker's version of 'Unchain My Heart' - superficially as easy as it gets but funky as a mofo....

[quote name='cheddatom' post='92152' date='Nov 21 2007, 02:22 PM']They thought something was suspicious, which it was really, from their point of view. We had 8 guitars nicked, reported it to the company, got 7 of them back a day later and reported that. I can see how it might seem a bit weird, so they had to investigate etc. The thing that really gets me angry is the fact that they took the details of my AND my housemate's stuff that got nicked, and didn't tell us until a month ago that they can only pay out for my stuff! This cuts my claim in half 'cos I have to give half to my housemate 'cos he paid for half the policy, that [b]they told us[/b], covered us both! I wish I had read the damn thing properly :-(

Lloyds home insurance if anyone wants to know who to avoid/petrol bomb for me.[/quote]

That sounds like they mis-sold you the policy, mate. Worth reporting them to the relevant financial authority - this happens far too often.

Sorry mate. Not a lot I can say to that really.

I'll still 'risk' it with my gig bag, tho'. There will always be nasty stories but, as is always the case when you walk out of the front door, it is reasonable to look at probabilities and, my experience tells me, that the 'risk' of damaging my bass by not using a hard case is minimal.

Tart!

I think this is a macho thing. Hard cases for hard blokes who eat hard food like hot curries and watch hard films with Steven Segal in and grow hard plants like cactii and drive hard cars like 4wds and have hard 9 string basses and play hard music like metal and wear hard leather and ride hard bikes like Harleys and do hard sports like snowboarding and tombstoning and stuff and beat you up for looking at them and drink hard drinks like Stella and cider and wear black.

Thing.