Jimmyp28

Its the socialist worker party. http://www.swp.org.uk/ and the link

Ok a lot to get through here but lets give it a go and see what happens then. I was never accusing all lutihers at having capitalistic greed in the centre of their motivations, I was accusing the big brands in boutique market. As I said before I do still think these are amazing instruments but I still can find no reason why some of these basses are worth so much more. If it happens to be the Veblen good effect then that is my answer I guess. Personally not good enough for me but that is my opinion and you may criticize that if you wish. So this is what am going to do about it then as you all have given me some really good ideas. I will put my money where my mouth is and start (trying to) making basses, this will give me a very good idea about cost,time and skill that all goes into making bass guitars. And I guess at the heart of it I was looking for some reason why something costed so much more to understand why some of the brands I mentioned where charging so much, I mean a quantifiable difference in them that justifies their price. If some of these basses are so amazing and so much skill has been put into them surly then they could stand up against some scrutiny and then in turn to prove that they really are worthy of commanding a price tag so high as they are with out a doubt so recognisable and could to some possible degree warrant their price? And how you ask? Well I have an idea and when it is more concise I will post it and see what people think. This is the real point I was trying to get at then, When you buy these items are you really paying for the skill,time labour attention to detail or are you just buying into the idea of said items being cooler and more exclusive, a brand which is more elitists by its very definition and by the fact the charge is so much more. Would some of you buy a guitar which cost lots less and made to same skill as these items which has been mentioned or would it not contest purely because the brand? I understand now that some people believe in the ideals of a free market and the ideals of supply and demand and that is great, thats why I posted this to try and understand other peoples opinions as I knew how I felt about this. Yes and to some degree me saying its purely capitalistic greed on there part was some what unfair and extreme am aware of that and can admit when am wrong.

[quote name='Tinman' timestamp='1327591091' post='1513874'] I know. Let's all pitch our tents in the Fodera workshop (Occupy stylee) that'll teach them to mess with us consumers! What a ridiculous thread. [/quote] yes of course some one trying to voice there opinion in manner of open debate on a website that is dedicate to that very ethos is truly ridiculous, what was I doing and thinking. Good to know though there are so many open minded people who are out there willing to debate an issue like adults and not just jump to troll like behaviour on the internet. Thank god I have realised the error of my ways. Thank you Fan boys I truly am a changed man.

[quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1327502763' post='1512444'] Just to really clear this up: You can't get the $500 [b]upgrade[/b] scratch plate without the $10,000 bass it comes attached to. [/quote] and a UPGRADE scratch plate costing $500 is not the issue at all.

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1327500991' post='1512395'] Is it really ethical for your luthier friend to copy the design of one of these name luthiers and offer a knock-down priced version? Why not go the whole hog and see what Trade Tang can provide? As has been said here already, luthiers (even the highest paid ones) are way, way down the pecking order of un-ethical business people. I really doubt that even Fodera with their $500 scratchplate are making huge percentages as their overall net profit. [/quote] Him actually making a Wal was not the point at all. What was though was him making an instrument that has a very high price tag with high grade materials for a lot less. And yes luthiers are way down the pecking list you are right but does that mean you should not do or say any thing about it? Just because it further down list still means its on the list though.

[quote name='Mylkinut' timestamp='1327499408' post='1512343'] I still don't get why it matters what these companies charge - that's the price the company sets, people pay it, end of. I don't see luthiers rolling around in Bentleys thanks to the massive profits you believe they make. There's nothing unethical about a company pricing a product highly just because you think it should be lower. If I as a consumer could set prices, I'd have bought my Precision with some Monopoly money and a packet of biscuits. However, that would have made me a prize bellend, because the chaps who made it wouldn't have food to eat (except for the biscuits). [/quote] If thats how you see it then thats cool that was my point, I do not see it as ok and was checking with the community to see if people felt the same way as I do. We all have different beliefs and I respect that. Still though I have not heard one reason for why these high end basses cost a lot more and we are not talking just a few weeks of saving. I know people have a problem with how I feel about this (look at the last few pages ha ha) but the point was to hear how and why these prices can be justified and am still thinking that they cant. Every post has said about there over heads are high or they are that the skill these luthiers have warrant this price, or have questioned my beliefs or ideas, but still no reason to explain to some degree rationally why there basses cost so much more.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1327499661' post='1512349'] [/quote]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1327498619' post='1512321'] Sorry JIm, must 'unfollow' now, my luthier's on the phone - my custom bass is ready. You don't want to know how much [i]that's[/i] costing me!! Oh and I'm bored, as well. [/quote] Congrats on the new bass. Am willing to bet its amazing.

[quote name='funkypenguin' timestamp='1327497695' post='1512287'] Ok, take fodera. They're based in New York city, their rent as a result of this will be astronomical, their overhead similarly so. They buy the best materials they can, some of which are nearly impossible to obtain (they only use CITES certified Brazilian rosewood. That's ethical to me) which again costs a huge amount of money. they use a high quality preamp, which costs a lot to manufacture. Then they hand build the instruments themselves. On top of this, they have to be able to live, pay their bills etc., again which living in NY will no doubt be through the roof......that's why they cost so much, not because they are being unethical..... [/quote] yeah thats a good rationalisation but really? there over heads are so high they have to charge people to come down and choose the woods for there bass? They do use a very high quailty pre amp and I love the sound of Foderas I really do but how much do you really think it costs to make a Ying Yang standard?

[quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1327497000' post='1512265'] On what basis can you say that luthiers are making high profit margins? You have no idea. [/quote] Not all luthiers am saying the big brands as explained earlier. Fodera don't make high profit margins?........really? they charge $500 for a hand made pick guard.

[quote name='charic' timestamp='1327494958' post='1512197'] I noticed you never answered my question [/quote] If it was at the expensive of over charging people then no I would not, thats how i see this subject. Unless it was x11

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1327494660' post='1512186'] Jimmyp28, your rant comes across as a severe case of sour grapes. You appear want an expensive bass but you are seemingly not prepared to save/work hard/make the appropriate lifestyle choices required to be able to afford one. Also if you think that at the hand-crafted instrument level one luthier's work is substitutable for another's then you haven't really grasped the concept of custom/boutique basses fully and are not really ready for one. [/quote] that is not the case and i did not mean it to come across that way at all. This has nothing to do with me owning said brand this has every thing to do with how I see these brands behaving and i just do not feel it is right though and this is a place to voice thoughts. I have owned a few custom and expensive instruments and am not disagreeing with the fact that they do cost time and money. As i said its with the makers who charge well over so over in-fact that I can come to no reasonable conclusion to why they cost that much, and thats why i wanted to talk about this subject. And that is the point if one level of luthiers work is comparable to another and is that of the same quality (not better) then why should a brand get to charge so much more? Are you trying to tell me that is reasonable and fair. when there is no other reason then a name. [quote name='Ou7shined' timestamp='1327494066' post='1512164'] Trust me, there's not much profit there taking the man's time into account. [/quote] but that depends on what you call a reasonable profit margin really

[quote name='Doctor J' timestamp='1327493290' post='1512139'] How do you know what kind of profit margins they're running? Could you get some kind of documentation to show exactly how much Wal, Fodera and Ken Smith make on each bass, or are you just speculating that even though the RRP is high that the cost of manufacture is substantially lower? [/quote] I know lutihers who are very skilled but are not "on the map" so to speak and its funny how they can buy in top quality wood and make me a copy of a Wal, Fodera or any other bass and charge me £1000 and still make a good profit. So if he can charge that and live and yes they do have big over heads as well, why are these "bigger" companies charging so much. But yes your are right maybe some transparency from these people would help clear this up, but i don't see that happing

Lots of post here but i expected that really lol. reading all the post though one thing strikes me is that so far there has not been one reasoned point for the prices of these instrument other than capital gain or "supply and demand". Is that really good enough? Just because one person say its worth 5000 we except it? I personally believe there is more to instrument making than that. Is it not fair to say that they are making tools capable of explaining so many emotion in the hands of a skilled or even unskilled musicians and is not fair to say that every one should have that option? I know we live in a very capitalistic society but surly there is a happy medium. Some way in which these very talented skilled artisans can get this to the general populus with out the need for for such high profit margins?

Most people will hate this and yes am opening up a massive can of worms but I feel like I have to do some thing about what I personally believe to be the capitalistic and elitist. motivation behind some of the big names in the bass world these days, and yes this is one of them rants errrm I mean open discussions for intellectual debate. So this is my problem, companies like Fodera, Wal and kevin smith and to be honest any other maker who care to charge a ridiculous amount of money for there product, claiming that the price is justified. Its just flat out wrong, and there should be some form of ethical responsibility on there behalf . Am not disagreeing with the fact that these instruments are not brilliant in there own way (glad I got that disclaimer out of the way :-) ) But its just the fact that they charge an extraordinary amount of money for some thing which really is not justified in any other way other than the fact you are buying in to a brand. Tiffany do it all the time with silver, which I know cost nothing compared to the mark up that they make, these “high end” bass luthiers are no different. the whole problem I have with this is that once you start charging that much you are starting to make musical instruments an elites item, that is a commodity for the better off when in reality it would help every one if a higher calibre of instrument was available to every one and in turn that would help every one become better players. And I know of the saying “people will pay what that think that it worth” and it is a fair point to some degree, but this is my problem as well with that ethos. A, some one could possibly pay to little for an instrument that is worthy of a higher price. B. Some one could pay to much for an instrument that is not worthy of said price tag I think the point of this rant is that I want to open the floor to every one to actually speak about this and not be accused of “trolling” to put together there thoughts in a concise manner which can lead to a mutual understanding of people on every side. I know which side I stand on but I would love to hear what other people think that could lead me to understand why and how this has happened in the bass world.

as ever andy........NICE! Was not to sure how it was going to work with guitar but it was really really good. Wish you would preform at the london bass show

[quote name='skej21' timestamp='1327048852' post='1505545'] In my opinion, you should never rely on one source for your sound. Ideally, you should record a signal from a microphone AND a D.I. and then mix the two together. This will also give you more options in terms of processing after you've recorded. You'll also find that if you use a dynamic mic to record your cab sound (like an AKG D112) you will lose some definition because of the lack of sensitivity in dynamic mic diaphragms, so having the option to mix in a more defined signal (the D.I. signal) then you have more flexibility. The sound you want has to be good quality at the input stage. As the saying goes; 'you can't polish a turd' [/quote] +1 Very good point

I would say the go to in my experiance limited as though it is would be a [b] [size=5]AKG [b]D112[/b][/size][/b]

Thanks rubis that makes sense and awsome about the veener brensabre79 if you look at the bottom right hand side of say a wal or fodera you can see that there is a cut away showing the wood underneath, that what i meant.

Mr fox that is a good idea indeed. Dont know why we don't have a sticky thread of this really.

Ok been searching for ages and have no idea how you do veneers on basses. Bass's like wals which have the maple strip running on the side and also Foderas which have the black accent lines on the side. Also as am here ha ha. Any one have any ideas how also the cut away on Wals and Fodears are doene? Because i really want to learn how to do this and cant work out how they do this?

Awsome advice, thanks very much guys. Think am going to take the plunge then and build a bass, and this will help. Next stop the work shop ha ha.

Been looking on the net now for a while to find a decent wood supplier and no luck as of yet. So does any one of one? am looking for good quality so I can build my own bass. any help would be very cool. Thanks very much