Tech21NYC

The sample settings for the Bass Driver DI were done with a vintage Fender bass directly into a mixer and near field monitors. The Blend is usually set to 100% since the SansAmp emulates vintage tube amps that have no blend control. What you are plugging the Bass Driver into will have an impact on the final sound. It's best to use the Bass Driver into a flat response platform when you first use it so you can hear and understand how it works. Running through other effects or a bass amp with its own EQ curve will negate the sample settings and the way the pedal is supposed to work.

The unit does have a midrange scoop by design and backing off the Blend or increasing the midrange can help if you require more mids. We also offer the ParaDriver and VT Bass DI's for players that want more control over the midrange content. 

19 hours ago, Wild Cayote said:

Does Getty not use the dual outputs on his Rickenbacker? I would have thought that was the whole reason it had dual inputs. I though I had read something with Getty saying the essence of his signature sound was overdrive with a fat bottom end, so when I saw that his signature Sam's amp had two inputs and two channels, one fat and one with drive, I assumed that's how he achieved his sound, using his dual outputs from his Rickenbacker, as Chris Spire from Yes does. Of course they used to use two amps, which I was hoping tech 21 had streamlined into one 2 channel preamp. 

 

I think the dual outputs in a Rickenbacker is a great idea, separating the two pick up, but there seems to be almost no other gear that supports that format, other than to use 2 amps and 2 cabinets, or to use A/B/Y switching. 

No, he does not use two outputs. Maybe once upon a time in the 1970's but now now. Yes, you would need two amps or two preamps to do the Rick-O-Sound thing. 

19 hours ago, Wild Cayote said:

Well isn't it true that the Geddy DI box  pedal has a blend switch on it that blends not the dry signal with the wet signal, but the fat channel with the drive channel? As in the device has two channels and without the drive on, you can play through the fat channel, then switch the drive on and blend drive with the fat channel.... 

Its surprising to me that the rack mount doesn't have this functionality - or does it? Like even if you can't plug into its two channels simultaneously, can you use both channels though one inputs? It seems like the ultimate way to do this would be to run both input channels at once, as even if you didn't have a Rickenbacker with dual outputs you could use a y cable and split the signal into each input. Source audio has this ability in their aftershock pedal, and maybe other pedals they make too. Which is what I think I'm gonna have to do since u can't achieve this with the Geddy pre amp

Both the DI-2112 and the GED-2112 have two channels. The Drive and Deep channels. Only the Drive Channel has the Blend control that allows you to mix in your un-effected signal with the Drive (SansAmp emulation.) There is no ability to switch between them. You might be confusing this product with the dUg Pinnick DP-3X pedal. That unit allows you to switch between the two channels. 

No they cannot. The inputs A and B allow you to have two different instruments plugged into the preamp. The front input jack overrides the rear inputs. The GED-2112 has two channels but operates with a mono input. This is the way Geddy uses it.

If you want to use two outputs you would need a second unit. 

When I spoke to one of the techs at Crown he said the specs on power amps make sense when using them for the proper application. They measure the wattage with a 1kHz sine wave for comparative purposes. In a pro-audio application they calculate how much power they need in relation to the amount of speakers they need to power. A rule of thumb is that if you are powering speakers with a 500 watt rating you will need a 1000 watt amplifier. This will give you the proper amount of power and headroom to handle peaks. The sound tech that we hire for our band told me with class D amps he likes to have 3 times the power needed. 

The problem that players trying to use these amps for a musical instrument application encounter is that they are trying to use a product that was not designed for that application and don't understand how the amps operate. Pro-audio power amps are expecting the output of a mixer. A 32 channel mixer can output over +22 dBu which is why they have a higher input threshold than a typical guitar or bass amp. The gains on those amps are really used to attenuate the input so the mixer's high output doesn't clip the input to the power amp.

You don't want any SS amp especially a Class D amp operating on the verge of clipping. Here is more info from Crown regarding amp power.  

Power amps like Crown, QSC etc are designed for pro audio applications. If they were designed for musical instrument use you would be able to easily plug in a low output high impedance instrument into them. This is not the case. This doesn't mean that it's impossible to use other devices with them but you need to be aware of the input sensitivity of the power amp. Instrument level devices like our DI's can achieve anywhere from instrument level (-10dB) to consumer line level (0db) . This depends on the way they are set. Microphone, instrument, consumer and pro audio levels represent an "operational range" which the equipment is designed to work with. They are not a constant like a voltage or impedance measurement. 

If using one of our DI's with a pro audio power amp you want something that has an input sensitivity of .775 volts (0db) or lower. Some power amps have adjustable input sensitivity. It also depends on how much power the amp has in relation to the speaker system though you tried to use components that are properly matched.

The other thing that many people get wrong is that you don't want to drive a power amp at its peak power. You need headroom to prevent the peaks from clipping the power amp. What we see with many players is that they get bogged down in the numbers and try to use a small speaker system with high wattage heads and think they can play any gig. If you need a lot of volume you need a lot of speakers. This is why we made our B410-DP cabs at 16 ohms for dUg Pinnick. He uses 4 cabs to get the thunderous volume he is known for with his 1000 watt signature dUg Ultra amp. 

The Bass Driver and Para Driver are first and foremost DI's. The concept initially was that instead of plugging into a typical DI and sending the dry sound of your instrument's pickups to the mixer, you could send an amp emulated output to the mixer as well as the normal DI'd signal. This comes from the studio technique of mic'ing a bass amp as well as running a DI and combining the signal for a more complex tone. While this technique is sometimes used for live situations most engineers prefer to DI the bass. 

When using either unit into the front end of a bass amp, that amp's tone stack will greatly alter the sound of the Bass Driver. That must be considered. All the sample settings that we provide in our manuals are of the pedals plugged into a mixer through studio monitors. It would be pointless to plug into a bass amp to come up with settings because there is no way to predict which bass amp (GK, MB, Ampeg, etc) would be used or how a player might set the amp. 

The Bass Driver has more of a midrange scoop by design and that sound won't always mesh well into an amp that doesn't have a flat midrange. This is one reason we added the Mid controls to the v2 Bass Drivers. The Para Driver was for the player that wants more midrange control so we offer the semi-parametric EQ. You can dial in 500 Hz if desired but you can't make the Para Driver sound just like the Bass Driver though there is some tonal overlap. The Bass Driver DI has the presence control which in not a feature that the Para Driver has. 

22 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

Thinking whether there's a secondary use whereby you take two bass outputs from the VTDI to the desk, one of the being the the parallel to give you a full clean bass tone to underpin a more driven 'effected' tone from the unit. Just wondering whether you have have come across folk doing this? I'm guessing the majority of us bass players simply rely on the blend knob in the unit itself.

You can certainly use that approach if you want. Just make sure to plug the parallel output to the high impedance input of your interface. Going this route I would set the Blend to 100% on the VTDI and record the un-effected DI on another track. For live use it makes more sense to use the Blend control. Most live sound engineers will probably not want to deal with two channels for bass.

You can use all three simultaneously. The parallel out is hardwired to the input and has no buffering like most direct boxes.

The idea behind the parallel output was to use it to connect to your bass amp and that would be for your stage sound and monitoring. You would then use the XLR output for your direct box/ amp emulated tone vs trying to mic your cab or the anemic tone of your instruments pickups through a DI. 

19 hours ago, Al Krow said:

One follow-up question from me if I may:  is there any issue with running two outputs from the VTDI i.e. one from the DI and a separate one from the 1/4", both at the same time?

That was part of the design intent of the pedal. You can either run the parallel or 1/4" out to your amp and send the XLR output to the mixer. 

Running the chorus ahead of the VT Bass DI is the easiest route to go. To run it after you would need to add another DI unless you can use a 1/4" input at the mixer. Experiment with the chorus in front or behind the VT Bass at home. If you think it's a big improvement running after then do so. 

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You could use the Tuner out of either unit to send your instrument signal to both units simultaneously and use an ABY pedal to toggle between or combine the two preamps if desired. Be mindful of ground loops. 

My suggestion for end users of our products that either have not or regularly used vintage tube amps is to work backwards with the Drive control. Because our products are able to generate their distortion irrespective of volume level unlike their tube counterparts, it makes it easy to dial in too much distortion and compression. (This is common phenomenon with lead guitar players with channel switching amps. They dial in the distortion channel on their amps with enough gain to sound like a hive of bees that they get lost in the mix and when they switch to the clean channel it's actually louder than the distortion channel.) 

If using one of our SansAmp pedals you should set the volume of your amp with the pedal in bypass mode then continue to the next step. Once the pedal is engaged the Level of the pedal should match the Level of your signal with the pedal in bypass. Set your overall volume Level with the Drive at around 9 o'clock. This should be clean in most circumstances. Once the pedal is set for a clean Drive setting you can start incrementally increasing the Drive for the desired amount. At this point any increase in Drive should also increase your Level until you get around Noon on the Drive control. This means you will have to back off the Level slightly as you increase Drive. 

Our SansAmp DI's are tube amp emulators. They are designed to sound like a vintage tube amp. They can be set totally clean or overdriven if desired.

The original intent behind the design was for the product to be used like a typical direct box. You plug into the Bass Driver and the parallel (uneffected) output goes to your amp. You would use your amp as you normally would but the DI to the mixer has the ability to send your uneffected buffered signal (boring) to the board or the sound of a tube amp instead. The blend control allows you to add in the uneffected signal with the tube emulation. This is a common technique that was used in studios for years. The engineer would mic up a bass amp and take a DI of the bass and the final sound was a composite of the two sources.

Somewhere along the way players started using our SansAmp's in front of their bass amps like stomp boxes. It can work either way. You just have to decide what you are trying to do. Our original Bass DI didn't even have a stomp switch or controls on the face of the unit. It looked like most direct boxes and had internal controls.

The RBI has more than enough output to work with the QSC. The problem here is when you try to shoehorn a pro-audio amp that is designed mainly for a sound reinforcement application in a musical instrument application. These types of amps spec out the input using a sine wave test tone at 1 kHz. The RBI is an instrument preamp and produces intentional distortion which is why we can't offer the same type of specifications. We have measured our rack units in the past and they can put out well over the voltage required. 

You need to account for how a bass guitar signal is represented to the amplifier. Musical instrument signal level is not like a sine wave test tone or a voltage measurement that is constant. It has a wider range and the amplifier must be able to amplify the "average signal level" without peaking out and causing amplifier distortion. (At least not with a SS amp.) If the power is set to the rated output when playing softly you will run out of headroom when playing at your peak volume. 

The last thing you want to do is run an amp like the QSC or any power amp right up to it's rated output. If you do so, any peaks will cause the amp to distort and for the limiter to engage. Here is some information from Crown regarding amplifier power. 

On 23/12/2021 at 14:21, Kev said:

 

Mmm.  I don't think there's too many like Origin who seem to really ramp prices up for foreign markets, but a lot of US built pedals do seem to be a lot more expensive over this side of the pond.  But, then again that could just be how its perceived from listings without sales tax.

 

Anyway, how much is this one going to be? £100?? 😁😁

The manufacturer is not ramping up prices. It has to do with how many hands the product has to go through, the import taxes, shipping etc.

Look at the difference with a Marshall amp. The JTM45 head is £1309 inc VAT at Andertons. It's $2799 here at Sweetwater. $2984 after tax.

Here is some info from the ITA:

Customs duty is assessed on the fair market value of imported goods at the time they are landed in the UK. Import prices for products entering the UK generally consist of: Cost, Insurance, Freight and Duty, with standard VAT of 20% levied on the aggregate value. VAT is reduced to 5% for some goods and services such as children’s car seats and home energy. VAT is further reduced to 0% for certain goods such as food and children’s clothing. More information on VAT can be found by visiting VAT Rates.

7 hours ago, Supernaut said:

What happened to the original Tech 21 VT Bass pedal (the non DI version)?

The VT Bass DI replaced the original character series VT Bass pedal.

Pricing outside the US is affected by the various taxes, distribution, and shipping of course.  The British made Revivaldrive Custom sells for £449 (VAT included) at Andertons . The same pedal sells for $675 at Prymaxe. Once you include the sales tax it retails for $719 (£536)  here in NJ.

There is no easy answer. The more hands that a product passes through combined with the escalating cost of shipping and value added taxes means higher prices. 

There is no right or wrong when it comes to setting the pedal. Any setting that gives you the tone you desire is the correct setting for you.

The YYZ is a signature pedal and is not supposed to sound like the VT Bass DI. It does have the "Tight" switch which is somewhat similar to the "Bite" switch but not exactly. 

37 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks for your post which was super helpful. It's already changed my view to having the cab sim as a 'default on' with Tech 21 pedals (and also explains why @dannybuoy was finding it was giving him a better sound!)

Was my guesstimate of the cab sim bump curve on the VTDI about right i.e. if 22Hz is the 3dB drop point, is it providing around a 6dB boost at the 50-60Hz bump point and then back down to 3dB at around 90Hz?

Also interested in understanding a bit more from you as to why an analogue pedal is likely to work better than a digital pedal through trad guitar and bass cabs?

The speaker emulation in our products is designed to provide a smooth EQ response without all the peaks, notches and nodes that can happen when using multiple microphones. Don't get bogged down in the numbers. An EQ curve that may look great on a computer screen may not translate if you are playing on a small stage with a low ceiling in a crowded club with a hard hitting drummer, a guitarist using a loud amp and 412 cab etc. The physics of your environment will always dictate the sound.

I play a lot of acoustic gigs when I'm not playing with my band. Just acoustic guitar an vocals. No matter how much I try to analyze the EQ settings for my acoustic preamp through my studio monitors and head phones, it all goes out the window when I get to the gig and plug it all in.

"Also interested in understanding a bit more from you as to why an analogue pedal is likely to work better than a digital pedal through trad guitar and bass cabs?"

It's more about the difference between a speaker cab impulse response and an analog sim. Whether a pedal is digital or analog it doesn't make a difference. It comes down to the type of speaker sim they choose to use.

The cab (or in our case the cab emulation) plays a big part in the overall tonality. It is the final tone shaping in a traditional guitar/bass amp design. There is a difference between a real instrument playing music and a white noise signal in test equipment. Our designer always designs by "ear" and the use of software like the FFT allows us to make sure that the final designs are accurate to the prototypes.

I find with our gear I almost always prefer to keep the speaker sim engaged as that is how the pedal is voiced. Because the sims are analog ,they work very well through traditional guitar and bass cabs. Any tonal issues with the sim usually has to do with your amp's preamp section. That usually happens with any sort of Drive pedal.

Bypassing the cab sim is more of a benefit with amp modelers because the Impulse response technology not only captures the EQ very accurately but also time and phase elements that may not translate well through a traditional speaker cab.

My reply was worded incorrectly. So much for multitasking.  22Hz was the 3dB drop point. The bump is around 50-60Hz. Keep in mind that we are running white noise to test with the FFT. The point being is that no matter what, we could get the response back to flat even with the Drive level up. The Bite switch is the stock VT sound. It works better for higher Drive settings. You want to trim out some low end to make higher gain sounds more focused. What happens when the pedal is really overdriven is that you hear more upper harmonic content and that tends to mask the low end. 

On 25/08/2021 at 11:11, Al Krow said:

 

Good to hear -although I see that you're having a clear out of some very decent pedals!

 

The VTDI is excellent, but there is unquestionably a loss of low end on the effected portion of the signal, so having a clean blend on that is pretty essential IMO. 

Maybe something is up with your setup. The VT Bass DI can be dialed in for flat response with the Blend fully on. When the speaker sim is engaged there is actually a bump in the low end at around 22Hz. 

Funny, I've tested some of these units myself and both versions can be set flat. I'm not sure what else to say. The pedal in bypass mode is flat and when engaged with all controls at Noon and with the Blend off is flat. Once you get into the realm of tube amp emulation "flat response" becomes a moot point. SVT's aren't known for being flat response amps. People dial them in and drive them into distortion because they sound great that way.

We make products that produce intentional distortion. The very definition of distortion contradicts flat response in an audio signal path. We've sold thousands of these over the years and players use them in all sorts of ways with great results. If it's not the product for you and you don't like our other offerings that's cool.

It can be dialed in flat. You need to turn the Blend off. It sort of defeats the point of the product. I was trying to figure out if you didn't like the sound of it when using into an amp, into a mixer or both. This is why I suggested you might like some of our other DI's. The VT Bass DI can be dialed in pretty close to flat with the Blend up as long as you are using fairly low Drive settings.

12 hours ago, Judo Chop said:

Well my two day old V2 keeps losing power when I connect the parallel out or 1/4 out to my amp or interface, LED starts to dim and sound slowly cuts out as soon as either of these are plugged in. Seems to work fine when just using the XLR output by itself.

That's when using phantom power from my interface or a seperate power supply, it won't work at all with a battery.

 

That sounds odd. When trying the pedal with a battery was it disconnected from DC and phantom power? If it's new and won't work off a battery you should exchange it for a different one. All our pedals are tested before they leave the factory and the battery test is one of the tests that gets performed. 

When running off phantom power did you try a different channel and or XLR cable? 

13 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

It's used all over the place depending on what I am doing.

Every which way the midscoop gets dialed out.

Dunno where you got this idea.

Read the wrong post, sorry. On the older v1 Bass Driver the Bass and Treble controls affect the midrange. Turning both controls up decreases the midrange and turning both down increases the midrange. Both versions can be set flat with the Blend off. In the end it depends what you are plugging into and also the type of bass being used etc. As I said, we do have other products with more midrange control that may be more suitable for your application.  You never mentioned what you were using the pedal with. Into an amp, mixer etc?