Tech21NYC

21 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

And very well they do it too, might I say! Both uses there make sense, but while I'm sure it works under the right circumstances, there is a notion of 'getting my sound in the front of house' which can go with the use of coloured pres. While it does do that in cooperation with the tech, what one can't do is tweak away to get the sound one wants onstage without altering what happens front of house, the room and the different positions in it being a huge factor in the difference in requirements.

For the most part in smaller situations your bass sound is pretty much a composite of what's coming off stage and what reinforcement the sound tech feels is necessary. Unfortunately in the states at least, most sound techs don't understand the difference between sound reinforcement and reproduction. They try to use a studio approach in a live sound environment. Many players seem predisposed to this approach as well. The band I play with does a lot of large outdoor shows in the summertime and the bass and low end is the most problematic frequency. Many times the low end backwash from the PA's subwoofers will negatively impact the sound on stage. My bass player will often lament that he's "playing the PA" instead of his bass amp. As a lead guitarist I've been told by sound techs I'm too loud when it's the PA system that forces the band to play louder because they place the system too close to the stage. When we pay to provide our own sound I will make them move the subs and line arrays farther from the stage so we can play at lower volumes. Live sound is always a challenge. 

3 hours ago, Jus Lukin said:

As you mention a DI pedal, I presume you are thinking of a Sansamp or similar. The Sansamps in particular are well regarded amongst techs, and will give you a sound more reminiscent of an amp, rather than the ultra clean, bright sound of a DI. They also give you some control over the sound of the signal, with EQ and clipping to tatse. This is problematic however, as any adjustments you make on stage may be completely inappropriate for front of house, especially if you're trying to compensate for a crappy monitor. If you need more low end and the front needs less you can literally fight the tech in the PA. This leaves a bad sound out front, and with limited time, one often ends up getting a 'best I could do' sound. If the effected signal can be sent direct to the monitor, you can then control it for yourself, whilst sending a clean DI to the desk. This gives the tech more room to do what he needs with the sound, but without any modelling. It is also fairly unlikely, as few sound techs will let you plug your bass guitar directly into their monitors with your own volume and bass EQ controls!

The Bass Driver DI was originally designed as a tone shaping direct box. The concept was to plug into the DI and send the "parallel" output to your bass amp and use your amp for your stage monitor and tone. The Bass Driver DI's XLR would be sent to the mixer and would be set for the most desirable DI tone. The pedal is designed to be used into the front end of an amp or efx loop if you are unhappy with your amp's inherent tone or for additional sounds. If using the XLR out to the PA this can lead to the issue described above. It's the reason many DI's on bass amps have a pre EQ switch. In a small venue where people hear mostly the sound of the stage amp and the PA is used for additional reinforcement there is probably more leeway. In a large venue where the sound is heard mainly from the PA it makes more sense to dial in the sound of the pedal from the FOH perspective. 

On 27/10/2018 at 13:06, NancyJohnson said:

It does seem to output a ton louder than the Geddy.

How so?

25 minutes ago, Low End Bee said:

I've always just shoved my Tech 21 pre amps into the effects send of a standard head. Is this a bad thing?

Did you mean the effects return? The power section in any good bass amp should work fine.

The Level controls on the front of the unit control both the XLR and 1/4" outputs of their respective channels. If the channels are jumpered internally, the mixed sound is available at all outputs.

The GED-2112 and RBI have some crossover tones but the GED has more midrange control as well as more Drive available. The RBI has a more modern tone and the Presence control gives at that "sizzle" that works well for certain styles of music. The form factors are very similar, but the GED had to forgo the ability to control the XLR and 1/4" outputs individually due to the extra channel. 

The GED-2112 can be used as a very transparent preamp if desired by merely turning the Blend and Deep Channel off which bypasses the SansAmp circuit. It then becomes a clean preamp with semi-parametric EQ. The RBI can also be used in the same manner but without the semi-parametric midrange control. 

The settings for our SansAmp products are usually done direct to a mixer and are for reference or to be used as a starting point. Settings that work into various amps with different tone stacks and speaker systems  will most likely not sound the same through different amps. We suggest going into an amps effects loop when using our SansAmps as your main "amp" tone as that method bypasses the hosts amps preamp section. If you want to use the pedal in front and use it like a stomp box you need to rethink the settings a bit as your amps preamp will fight against the inherent tone of the pedal. 

It's often called a cab or speaker sim, but in reality it's the sound of the speaker as captured through various microphones at different positions. Like a close mic'd SM57 off axis or an AKG at a distance of 6" on the cap edge etc. The IR's can very accurately represent the EQ curve as captured through various mic's. They can't capture compression or distortion artifacts though. They are very popular for lead guitar because many times in the studio more than one microphone will be used to capture the tone. They are less popular with bass since bass is often DI'd or a composite sound of a DI and a mic'd cab. Mic'ing a bass cab with stereo room mic's would be kind of pointless for most applications. You also have to convert the analog signal to digital to use them. With bass you could go parallel and use your DI sound and also feed the signal to an impulse response etc.  

Usually the issue of brightness is exacerbated when going into the front end of an amp or using full range speakers. Going directly into a power amp as you are doing is the preferred method. Are you using an active bass or passive? Have you tried using the XLR out on the DP-3X? That output is a little darker.

On 05/08/2018 at 16:41, NancyJohnson said:

I do find it quite bright through my set up, irrespective of the bass I'm using.

What are you plugging the pedal into?

16 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Im surprised that any FOH guy will be happy with you having your own access to mixes on your monitor wedges. IEM mixes can be altered without impacting FOH. The fact that monitors are not within FOH control and not be able to be notched or controlled in volume to prevent feedback, well, lets just say it surprises me anybody would let you do that.

I would also disagree with the statement about concert/pro situations. If your band members take responsibility for their IEM mix and the sound on stage is reduced significantly as a result, front of house becomes a doddle.

For one thing we aren't kids. We've all been playing for years. Secondly, in many situations "we" pay the sound company so they are working for us. In other situations it's part of our contract what the stage plot is. Every now and then like a couple of weeks ago we played at the new Hard Rock Casino in Atlantic City and it wasn't easy for them to do so we just had the two wedges controlled my FOH and the other guys still ran their own in-ear mixes. It works easiest if the monitors are newer and self powered.

The only time there has ever been an issue is when the wi-fi went out and for some reason my wedge started to feedback. I had to turn off the wedge until we could get the monitor control back. 

Maybe it's different in your part of the world but I've played really low volume gigs with live drums, bass amp and guitar amps in NYC with no issues. A lot of sound techs complain the musicians are too loud but I've been to enough venues to know that usually the entire system is too loud and many sound techs here run kick and bass heavy mixes. 

Live sound is supposed to be a collaborative effort not a dictatorial one. As a lead guitarist that also sings lead I'm pretty conscious of stage dynamics. If our sound tech tells me I'm too loud I turn down. I also use an attenuator and have plexi shield for situations where we are too close to the audience. 

 

With our band we bring our own digital mixer and a splitter. Keys, vocal mics, guitars, bass & drums are all patched into the splitter and our monitors are controlled by the QSC app via iPhones or iPads. Two of us use wedges and everyone else in on in-ears. Our mix is independent from FOH. 

I prefer a wedge to in-ears. I would also be very hesitant to be in a situation where someone else is controlling my mix if I'm on in-ears. Personal monitors can easily damage your hearing and inexpensive ones most certainly will. It's interesting to note that except for the drums the two instruments that are only direct tend to be the most inconsistent when it comes to stage volume. Also, if you are playing direct you are at the total mercy of whoever is mixing as the band will have very little sound coming off of the stage.

I think in-ears work better in concert/pro situations where the band is heard almost entirely through the PA. On a local level in a small pub. club etc it makes the sound techs job easier in certain respect while risking the musicians hearing and simultaneously neutering the sound of the band. A band in a small venue direct sounds like bad karaoke. IMHO. 

4 hours ago, fretmeister said:

I do wish it had a battery option. As an analogue pedal it won't eat them quickly, and it would be a far easier set up in places where I am lucky if I don't have to argue over a single socket!

I do have one of the Warwick Rockboard rechargeable batter pack things, but that is still another thing to carry.

 

@Tech21NYC What is the current draw for the pedal please?

About 60mA.

3 hours ago, dannybuoy said:

I wonder if it takes phantom power like the Sansamp?

The circuit itself draws very little. It's the LED's for the tuner and lights for the controls that exceed the maximum current limit for a phantom powered device.

45 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

It does sound good BUT he still has his amp affected (not flat) before the dUg pedal hits it.  I'd much rather these sort of reviews be done straight into the effects return or better still into a poweramp. 

We suspect many people will probably use the pedal inline and in front of their amps in which case you will most likely want to boost the mids and decrease the highs depending upon your amp settings. Going direct with the DI if using the 1/4" out to you amp you can adjust the EQ at the board if desired to tweak the final sound. If using into a powered speaker and want the same tone sent to the mixer you can use the through of your powered speaker and send that to the PA or run the pedal to a DI and split it that way. 

The dUg video with Pete Thorn is all DI. I'm sure there will be other videos in the future showing the pedal through different setups. dUg has used it direct, into an amps efx return as well as into the front of an amp. It works for him either way.

1 hour ago, dannybuoy said:

Plenty of people on this forum are using PA gear as their stage monitor though, that's my point:

https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/315455-interesting-frfr-story/

These people are using setups like this precisely because they are using digital modellers or Sansamps, and want to be able to monitor as accurately as possible what they are sending to the desk via their own rigs. Of course you are at the mercy of the tech, but it's ultimately another variable they have to think about when it would have been nice to have it switchable so that the main out is just like the XLR.

I bet the pedal will work just fine for me, but I can see why others would prefer it to work differently. Constructive criticism and ideas for improvements for future revisions should be taken on board rather than just trying to shoot every argument down.

We gladly listen to constructive criticism and comments on are products. Of course it would have a little more validity if the person offering the constructive criticism has actually used or tried the product. The pedal was designed for dUg and end result was what he wanted. I play direct a great deal and placing my wedge on the floor typically doesn't like the same speaker on a stand from 30' away. Many wedges have settings for full range, low cut to reduce floor rumble and a high boost to make vocals intelligible on a noisy stage. The FOH has a mixer with a fair amount of EQ. A good tech will tweak the sound if needed. 

Full range or not a bass rig is not a PA system unless that is what you are using. We do some big outdoor shows with my band with flown line arrays and banks of subs running thousands of watts and a bass amp in comparison is not even close. In a smaller venue your rig is being heard in the room and the PA is there for "reinforcement" and your sound is a composite of your stage amp and the PA.

Adjust your amp so it sounds good through that and unless you're doing some really extreme setting, the FOH should be able to get a sound that works. Let the sound engineer do his job. You're not really in the proper perspective to analyze your tone in the same way the person out front does. In the end you're at the mercy of the sound tech. 

19 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

No, I don't need it for that. If the outputs aren't the same then I'd use it to figure out where they differ and how to compensate for the fact.

I'm not questioning whether the thing has enough high end or if it will be great, of that I have very little doubt that it'll kill, just questioning if the outputs have the same signal coming out of them.

Compensate? Just set it to where it sounds good with whichever output you are using. That's what the eq is for. You might have a preferred setting but chances are you may have to tweak them depending upon the rig you are using and the situation you are in. 

4 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

So, they're not the same?

This answer reads like the famous Kenny Dalglish reply in a post match interview when he managed Celtic a few years ago. Sick and tired of being asked stupid questions by knucklehead reporters, he simply said "Maybe's aye.... Maybe's no."

There were days I would have went spare with the answer of "maybe" to a direct question like this. Now, I just laugh as it always makes me think of that interview.

I'll record with this thing the minute I get it and put it through a spectral analyser. Answers will be forthcoming as to whether they're the same or not, by looking at the outputs from both channels.

You really need a spectral analyzer to decide if something works for you? Wouldn't it be faster to just listen? The pedal is voiced to dUg's specs and he doesn't like the extra high end he hears through the big systems he plays through. The interview demo he does with Pete Thorn he is using the XLR out and there is no shortage of high end. The unit does have a treble control and if you look at his actual settings in the manual he has the highs set around 10 o'clock. The pedal has no shortage of high end. 

Again, it's a dUg Pinnick signature pedal so that should give you an idea of the type of tones it has. It's a pretty cool little pedal. If it's a sound you think you can use, give it a go. If it doesn't work for you, send it back. 

The VT Bass was designed to cover a wider territory of Ampeg style tones. It has the Character control which allows you to easily morph into these different sonic territories. The VT Bass 500 amp has some of the features of the VT Bass DI and some additional features for more flexibility. 

Maybe the XLR isn't really darker, maybe the 1/4" is brighter... While the pedal was in development dUg used it on tour through a multitude of amps and different PA systems and the filters were set to his specifications. He prefers going into the efx returns when using backline amps though that isn't always an option. In those cases he just plugs the pedal in front of the amp.  My suggestion would be to try the pedal for yourself and not come to tonal conclusions from something you read on a forum.

In the video interview with Pete Thorn they are using the XLR output and there is no shortage of high end.

The cab is 8 Ohms correct? That's 1000 watts bridged. Which output of the pedal are you using and what are the settings on the pedal? The Bass Driver DI's output is not ideal for that amp but it should be sufficient to make it work. Are you running any other pedals after the Bass Driver DI?

On 3/8/2018 at 11:38, BassBod said:

Don’t think so, as long as the bass and treble aren’t boosted.  Thanks for the contribution Tech21 - very interesting to read.  I always used mine in front of SWR’s to warm them up a bit - never thought of using the uneffected output for the amp 😳.  After 20 years I’ve retired my original Bass Driver due to scratchy pots (most of them!) Is it possible to “re-pot” a Sansamp and get it back into service?

If you contact our support department they can hook you up with our UK Distributor for a repair. [email protected]

On 3/8/2018 at 11:38, BassBod said:

Don’t think so, as long as the bass and treble aren’t boosted.  Thanks for the contribution Tech21 - very interesting to read.  I always used mine in front of SWR’s to warm them up a bit - never thought of using the uneffected output for the amp 😳.  After 20 years I’ve retired my original Bass Driver due to scratchy pots (most of them!) Is it possible to “re-pot” a Sansamp and get it back into service?

If you contact our support department they can hook you up with our UK Distributor for a repair. [email protected]

3 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

That's what I thought was supposed to happen, but every time I engaged the pedal there was an instant change in the tone.. strange.

At the time, I was running it straight into a poweramp.

 

It's possible the pots needed to be adjusted slightly. There is a  slight variance but you should be able to toggle the unit on and off to get it flat. Or just keep the pedal in bypass. We measure it on the scope when we test them. 

22 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Thanks for contributing.

It might be my failing memory, but I seem to recall engaging the SansAmp with the blend rolled off still introduced a noticeable change in the mids...?

With the Blend off and the tone controls at 12 o'clock the unit is flat. The tone controls react differently when the Blend is off.  What were you running the pedal into?

3 hours ago, Raggy said:

So is there much difference between the Para Driver and the V2 Bass Driver?

Very different pedal. The Para Driver DI is more open ended and can be used with many different instruments whereas the Bass Driver DI is optimized for bass. The Para Driver has its sweepable midrange control before the SansAmp circuit which gives it more Drive potential. It also lacks the Presence control which the Bass Driver has. It depends what you're looking for. The Bass Driver is popular with players that like that tone and the ability to get it fast. Your playing style, instrument (active or passive) and what you run the unit into (bass amp, console, power amp etc) all come into play.

With any sound shaping device it helps to know beforehand what specifically you are trying to accomplish. It seems like many players that complain about the unit just bought it without a clear idea of what they wanted. It wasn't designed to be a distortion box although many use it that way. It's a DI/amp emulator and needs to be approached as such. 

7 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

@Tech21NYC I have a question. I was hoping that the manual would be out or that a video demo would address this.

Is it possible to turn the unit on straight into mix mode or does it always default to the clean channel when you press the on switch even if you've turned it off in mix mode?

Just curious.

Yes, the mix can be pre-armed so it activates in that mode.

The Bass Driver DI was designed as a tone shaping direct box. The concept was to plug into the DI and send the "parallel" output to your bass amp and use your amp for your stage monitor and tone. The Bass Driver DI's XLR would be sent to the mixer and would be set for the most desirable DI tone. The Bass Driver does have a specific tone with a midrange dip that many find desirable. When running into the front of an amp it usually sounds best if your amp is set flat. If your amp is set with a midrange dip (which is quite common) or you have an active bass with a similar setting, this will be exacerbated using the Bass Driver DI. It really comes down to whether or not you use the pedal as an always on effect or like to turn it on and off. Usually backing down the Blend or reducing the Bass and Treble (plus increasing the midrange for the V2 pedal) will take care of this. If you require more midrange content you might consider our Para Driver DI, VT Bass DI or Q\Strip (no amp emulation though) products.

There seems to be a misconception about tube emulation and tube amps in general. I guess if you're a younger player and have not had much first hand experience with tube amps it's easy to assume that tubes=distortion which is not true. Natural tube output stage distortion is not so much an effect but a byproduct of pushing an analog circuit beyond its design limits. Tube amps as well as our tube emulation can be set clean. Tube amps were designed to run clean.

Vintage tube amps had no "blend" control. We provide one because in a studio setting it was quite common to mic a tube amp and also run a DI of the bass direct to the console to get a more complex and refined tone. A big part of the problem when recording bass even in a large professional recording environment is that bass frequencies are very hard to control and will easily bleed into other microphones if say tracking other instruments. This tends to be why most studio and live sound techs prefer using a DI versus a mic with bass amps.

Because our products emulate vintage tube amps they are able to achieve their overdrive and distortion characteristics irrespective of their volume levels unlike a vintage Ampeg SVT or Marshall. Because of this, it is advisable to be judicious with the Drive settings as in a live context you will play harder when competing with guitars and drums which will result in more overdrive than intended.