Spare amp or Pre amp DI pedal

[Jack]

For what it's worth my seldom-gigging hard rock band have taken a hybrid approach and it's working really well.

 

Electric drums, modelled guitar and bass, all of the 'backline' coming from one wedge. No earplugs needed, you can still hear the room without the isolation of IEMs, still in total control of what sound is being made where. Terrible photo as it's actually a screen cap from a phone video, but you can see the pedalboards, the edrums and my qsc wedge, all being supported by our decade-old Alto pa.

[Tech21NYC]

In the end you either know how to play a low volume gig or you don't. It seems if volume is such a huge issue the "first" thing to ditch would be the acoustic kit. Use a Cajon player or electronic kit, that brings the volume way down. Maybe it's different on your side of the pond but in most live music venues I go to it's the PA system that is always too loud. DJ's as well. In a small venue there is no need to mic anything unless your drummer has a weak foot. When everything is direct you are totally at the mercy of the person running sound and on the average the skills of most sound "techs" is pretty subpar. Our sound tech works for a big sound company in NYC and he will tell you that most techs barely mix. They are level setters. 

 

 

[BassAdder60]

Very true, drummers in small venues set the level for the band and it’s tough getting them to drum at a lower volume especially if they are rock drummers ! 

[Jack]

1 hour ago, Tech21NYC said:

In the end you either know how to play a low volume gig or you don't. It seems if volume is such a huge issue the "first" thing to ditch would be the acoustic kit. Use a Cajon player or electronic kit, that brings the volume way down. Maybe it's different on your side of the pond but in most live music venues I go to it's the PA system that is always too loud. DJ's as well. In a small venue there is no need to mic anything unless your drummer has a weak foot. When everything is direct you are totally at the mercy of the person running sound and on the average the skills of most sound "techs" is pretty subpar. Our sound tech works for a big sound company in NYC and he will tell you that most techs barely mix. They are level setters. 

 

 

Nearly everything true there is true of bands using backline and those without. The only difference is that you either need to find one (hopefully competent) person to control the mix or 4+ (hopefully competent) people to control themselves in the mix. Guess which is more likely?  You are right that most sound techs are subpar, what are the chances you find a band that's entirely comprised of good ones?

 

This thread about preamps is in danger of becoming "the pros and cons of ditching backline thread #18662" but I would argue that it's possible to get a bad mix and a good mix using either approach. What can't/won't/doesn't happen in an ampless setup is volume creep and volume wars where everyone turns themselves up throughout the night. Maybe you start with a quiet drummer, maybe you start with a loud drummer. What you don't get is a drummer who keeps hitting harder and harder because that bloody guitar amp is drowning them out. 

 

On drummers and electric kits: budget guitar modellers from Nux/Hotone/Valeton and the like are exceptional. Your own Paradriver is brilliant. Great electric drum kits are hard to come by and very expensive IME.

Edited yesterday at 15:59 by Jack

[BassAdder60]

Back on topic I decided to get a spare amp or second amp as it will share duties ( not at the same time ) 

 

Found pre amps in front of amp slightly less rewarding and nothing gained particularly 

[Tech21NYC]

21 hours ago, Jack said:

What can't/won't/doesn't happen in an ampless setup is volume creep and volume wars where everyone turns themselves up throughout the night. Maybe you start with a quiet drummer, maybe you start with a loud drummer. What you don't get is a drummer who keeps hitting harder and harder because that bloody guitar amp is drowning them out. 

Totally not accurate. Even with individual monitor mixes volumes will still vary and keyboard players are the worst. I've worked for years in musical theater in NYC and they pay programmers a lot of $$$ to setup the multiple keyboard patches to specific levels and even then it doesn't always work. The last show I played on Broadway was the Neil Diamond "It's A Beautiful Noise" musical and the band was onstage. Everyone was required to wear IEM's and we all had 16 channel monitor mixers. Players would still get volume notes and even with my custom 25dB Westones IEM's, when the stage would move forward during parts of the performance the ambient volume would overwhelm my IEM's and I wasn't about to ruin my hearing for some stupid gig. Even warming up the sax and trumpet would be so loud acoustically, turning them off at my mixer did nothing. 

 

Not every situation is guitar, bass, drums, keys and vocals. The loudest gigs I've played have been with brass players. Try turning down a saxophone. 

[Jack]

49 minutes ago, Tech21NYC said:

Totally not accurate. Even with individual monitor mixes volumes will still vary and keyboard players are the worst. I've worked for years in musical theater in NYC and they pay programmers a lot of $$$ to setup the multiple keyboard patches to specific levels and even then it doesn't always work. The last show I played on Broadway was the Neil Diamond "It's A Beautiful Noise" musical and the band was onstage. Everyone was required to wear IEM's and we all had 16 channel monitor mixers. Players would still get volume notes and even with my custom 25dB Westones IEM's, when the stage would move forward during parts of the performance the ambient volume would overwhelm my IEM's and I wasn't about to ruin my hearing for some stupid gig. Even warming up the sax and trumpet would be so loud acoustically, turning them off at my mixer did nothing. 

 

Not every situation is guitar, bass, drums, keys and vocals. The loudest gigs I've played have been with brass players. Try turning down a saxophone. 

The derail continues. You seem to have a real point to prove here but I don't know what it is.

 

Ok, one has a really loud saxophonist on a particular stage, fine. Now, will that stage be overall louder or quieter if a hypothetical two guitarists and one bass player are playing through backline or playing through digital modellers straight to the board? If the guitarist can't hear themselves they are free to ask the saxophonist to play softer whether they have backline or not. BUT, if the saxophone won't play ball then the guitarist might want to turn themselves up to match. When using backline this affects everyone, when using IEMs this only affects the guitarist. You are now going to say "yes but then everyone will need to turn up their IEMs and risk hearing damage" and again you are correct but you are correct whether there's IEMs or not. The problem in this case is the loud saxophone, not that somebody else in the band is using IEMs. Again, nothing about live sound is perfect. I reiterate that you can have good and bad mixes using every single approach that I can think of and probably a few that I can't even conceive of. I posted in this thread in response to a post suggesting that ampless was only for big gigs, I dispute that. None of the rest of this is really relevant. 

 

As you correctly point out live music can be really loud, dangerously loud. You don't have to go to a metal show to get hearing loss. I am in favor of more options for more people to not get hearing damage. Ditching the backline is one possible way to achieve that, there are plenty of others. 

[BassAdder60]

Back on topic again !!! 

 

And as already said I’ve decided to get a second amp not a DI or preamp pedal which was my original question !! 

Edited 2 hours ago by BassAdder60