Paolo85

I got a membership to SBL a few months ago. After reading this I skimmed through Scott's own Bass Fundation course. I just skimmed but I found no trace of jazz noodling. Even in the long sections when he shows how to build bass lines using chord tones, when one could naturally fall into jazz, his playing had a clear pop feeling.

Obviously, if one wants to learn metal that's not the right angle for a course. I would say chords would have to be touched upon briefly and scales, modes and complex rythm should take priority. At the same time, if one wants to become Steve DiGiorgio at some point chord tones are not a waste of time.

There was no trace of jazz noodling also in the courses on blues and preventing i jury I took. Nor in the fretless course - plenty of noodling though, but not jazz and not by Scott.

It turns out in SBL there are two hour long courses on metal bass by David Effelson and a 5-hour course on prog metal bass playing. Then there are three seminars on metal (arpeggios in metal, slap in metal, analysing metal basslines).

Youtube videos are marketing and I imagine the jazz noodling is a way of saying "I am good, I can teach you". Noodling Slayer bass lines would not be as effective as a marketing tool.

I do get a lot of the criticism to SBL - the clickbait, not getting to the point.. but I am under the impression that the crime here is that he likes jazz, or teaches it. I am pretty sure there are worse things one can do

To summarise my post above with songs: there's a world of music that is not really about the groove

https://youtu.be/rARGPAkIcw4

(My favourite Rush song)

https://youtu.be/NJPAjiSX7Rk

https://youtu.be/NU9F126WCUc

I guess it's a matter of taste, which is always fair enough. I wouldn't say I am a massive Rush fan but I do like their 70s stuff, I used to listen to it quite a bit in my early 20s and I like Geddy Lee.
Now, if the question is why a lot of people like him (or adore him) and you don't, a couple considerations may be helpful:
Space, rythm and groove, the way you get them for example from a funk/soul player, and the way the vast majority of bass players seem to enjoy it, are not a necessity in music. They are just one possible style out of many. Very very important in the history of pop music but maybe less of a thing in the history of music more broadly.
If you look at jazz through the hard bop period, most doublebass players would just play quarter notes with a swing - except for ballads. You find in my opinion way more space and rythmic variety in Geddy Lee.
As doublebass evolved, groove was not an immediate priority, at least to my understanding. Scott LaFaro with Bill Evans, while he could be seen as groovy in a way, mostly was trying to move the bass away from its role as rythmic section. This went quite far and during the free jazz period Monk lamented that he'd struggle to find a doblebass player who could "swing". Paradoxically, freeing the bass from keeping the time (that is just the beat, as it was originally) did pave the way for the introduction of groove in the modern sense but that was not the original intention.
If you look at classical music (which prog rock bands to an extent were trying to imitate) space is plentiful but groove is not a thing.
When I started playing as a metalhead I had no interest in groove. I guess I was more trying to create a "flow". I had very mixed feelings about groove and a band like Jamiroquay wold irritate me. Now I like funk but I think to a large extent this is function of the fact that I am back to playing the bass.
Also, I think an important consideration is that some players such as Geddy Lee or Steve Harris in my opinion cannot be disentangled from their songs. Bass and guitar riffs largely move together and are the pillar of the songs. There is no such thing as a bass line to be considered "in isolation" while somebody plays chords. In a way, if you like the song you like the bass line or viceversa.

1 hour ago, dyerseve said:

I still dont get it - why would you want to know how much you need to change it at the 12th fret - that only services half of the fretboard...

Typically I never measure the action when setting up any of my basses, I just keep going lower until fret buzz intervenes. Then I raise the action a fraction at a time until there is no fret buzz on the last few frets as they are always the last to buzz.

I have only measured the action on this occasion to compare it to what others are achieving with their P basses 

Well, for most people that's the half of the fretboard that actually gets used. I suspect that's also the reason why, reading around, I am under the impression that, if they have to chose, many people would try to get the neck very straight above all, and then play with the saddles. Relief does help lowering action (here I mean it in general) overall. But with a fairly straight neck one can sacrifice "average action" across the neck a bit, getting a better action toward the headstock a worse one in the dusty end.

I would be among those that prefer a somewhat straight neck on paper. And I measure string height either at the 12th or at the 15th fret (which I find tend to be almost identical in most cases). I do not try too hard to keep the neck straight only because if I keep a bit of margin then I

do not have to adjust the truss rod too often.

I guess a lot depends on personality. There's people that like music "in general", just with some preferences, and people that find a lot of the music being recorded plain tedious.

My guitar player and my drimmer when I was a teenager were I believe extremely talented for their age. When I had to stop for a long period for tendinitis they "took the opportunity" to leave our metal band and join a prog band, while also doing some serious studying and working toward a career in music.

Within a year or so they were both making a living with some tribute/function bands. The drummer went on to become a session man. The guitar player, who on top of being talented had very good family connections and we were all expecting to do well, hated it so much that he dropped everything, became a psychologist, and just focused on his prog band with zero earning potential, doing gigs in front of not very many people.

12 minutes ago, Davi said:

It does look very similar, except the bridge is different and the fretboard looks to be made of a darker wood.

Yes, looking better the battery compartment is also in a different place. Is your bass by any chance quite heavy and without foam under the pickups, much like these HBs?

It's very much identical to this Harley Benton...

https://www.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_hbz_2004_deluxe_series_bundle.htm

51 minutes ago, dyerseve said:

thank you, yes I have already seen that. 

 

What would help is if I had a brain! I just measured the relief again(corrrectly this time though!) and I am getting around 2,5mm. Still much too high for my liking though. 

My go to bass is a '87 JD Thumb which plays like a dream with an action of no more 1,5mm across all the strings. 

Sorry, just to check if I interpret this right, you are getting 2.5mm string height at the 12th ot 15th fret or 2.5mm relief?

I am in a similar situation, a bit younger, with the complication (which you may or may not have as well) that for family reasons I am not so sure how much time I'd be ok to allocate to a band. On paper jam nights seem to be the thing for me but I am not so good at improvising and jamming in front of lots of people is not necessarily the low pressure situation I'd be looking for after some 20 years without playing with other people.

My ideal situation would be a fairly local band of middle-aged mums and dads, little more than beginners, or re-learners, or for some reason hapoy to just reharse together for a while without gigging until the band works alright.

I guess such thing may even exist if I am flexible with genres...

I do care about the looks of my basses, quite a bit I think. By that I mean that they have to look nice to me. Slightly or even significantly battered can be ok. A colour that I don't like is an issue.

I do not need to own multiple basses. I just like them and the looks is part of the equation. My basses need to sound, look and feel nice - to me - and balance well, without being heavy. I don't see why I would need to own anything that does not thick all the boxes given that there's plenty of basses that tick all the boxes for me (maybe with some minor mods) and cost only a few hundred pounds.

This may be down to me not being that refined and thinking that basses that cost a few hundred pounds sound and play great. It is possible that people that buy very expensive basses detect nuances that change the equation completely.

Btw I don't think Squiers are "demolished" by other brands. The Affinities are very lightweight P and Js, with comfortable neck shapes, my Affinity PJ had a very high output P pickup. It also was fraught with issues but for cheap basses that's always a risk and a seller with a good return policy is a must

I would reccomend against being attracted to shiny things such as roasted maple necks at that price range.

Most of the sound of your bass, setting strings and external factors aside, comes from the pickups. You want one that sounds good and that's hard to detect in rhe specs. Most of the playability of your bass comes from fretwork (assuming you'll do a good setup). There for supercheap basses it's a bit of a lottery but in general I suspect the more the bass comes recommended the more likely fretwork tend to be acceptable more often than not.

Roasted maple in theory would improve neck stability. Sometimes cheap basses come with superchunky necks, and for these baseball bats stability is not necessarily the problem. The problem is that they also balance with superchunky body and make 5kg+ basses (eg my Harley Benton JB75fl or my Fazley PJ fl).

Among the brands that specialise in supercheap basses, Harley Benton I think is believed to be the best value for money. The jazz basses tend to be great but superheavy. Mine was both superheavy and a neck diver which for me is a no no. They make a few heavy basses, buth other basses they make seem to be normal or in some cases light (eg the cheap P bass with poplar body or even more the actibe B450) and well regarded.

I can't play "properly" myself but as you said, you do have those 4 strings in your bass so even if there was for some reason a rule that one learns better on a 4, you could just use your B to rest your thumb. Unless you want to buy a 4 string bass

Sounds cool but you have double bass strings and presumably an action that if is not as high in a doublebass at least is fairly high for an electric bass. In an instrument that you fret like an electric bass. With the upright to my understanding proper fretting techniques uses the natural weigh of the arm to put pressure on the strings.

Squeezing gigantic strings in your hand as you would do on an electric bass would leave me worried about injuries

I really can't buy it but I must say, the first time I saw it I thought "nice but not my style", now the more I see it the more I think it's beautiful

I'd definitely try a 32" P if there was a cheap option available

I imagine a possible problem with the preamp pedal could be that, as things stand, it would work on top of the existing preamp? This does not necessarily mean ot would not work nicely though

11 minutes ago, Acebassmusic said:

Paolo, I've taken some photos and compared them to your pics to show how I hold my left hand. For the most part our positions are very similar, just a couple of subtle differences.

 

My first picture shows my arm & wrist is nearly straight with my palm facing upwards. My fingers are parallel with the frets (just like your photo). The difference I see is the positioning of my thumb on the back of the neck.

 

 

In the picture below I've tried to copy your thumb position. We both hold the thumb approx in the centre of the neck but your thumb is flat against it. To get my thumb flat I had to rotate my wrist clockwise which then made my palm approx 45 deg to the bottom of the neck making it more difficult for me to fret notes.

 

By keeping my palm facing upwards, parallel to the bottom of the neck I find my thumb automatically moves to 45 deg and its more the edge of my thumb in contact. In the video I'm showing how I use my thumb to pivot and can move up and down the fretboard.

 

There are many different "correct techniques" on the web so mine may / may not be right for you but hopefully it helps a bit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is absolutely amazing thank you so much! Yes I think the thumb is the issue!

I never thought about it but when I fret, my thumb is not behind the index, as it would normally be in a relaxed grip. It is almost behind the ring finger. I think I may have been taught to do that - something along the lines that it gives equal strenght to all fingers. True or not, the price I pay for it may be quite high. Not just the fact that I end up bending the wrist, but also the fact that the thumb works at an unnatural angle. As I try your position, I feel a somewhat weaker grip with the ring and little fingers. But I feel much much less tension on my thumb. In comparison, in my position it feels like the thumb is working even when I am not fretting any note.

As it happens, my thumb is one of my weakest point, and pain there stopped me for playing for months at the time some 20 years ago, untill I gave up the bass. Had the had tjis conversation then..maybe... !!!!

3 minutes ago, PaulThePlug said:

Are the pickups active of just the pre?

I'd try the pickups passive...

I think thee are the Bartolini mk1 at least in current models

I'll follow the discussion with interest. I do like the shape, looks and feel of tje Cort A/B/C. Would you have the tools to measure the distance between the nut and the centre of the pickups for both the Cort and the Sire?

That would be helpful info. If they happen to be the same I would be surprised if you couldn't make the Cort sound like a jazz, although I think soapbar replacement pickups are not the cheapest and if you want an active jazz there's also the cost of the preamp

...add two picture to show that in picture 1, with the thumb at the centre, my fingers have plenty of space to move - at the expenses of my wrist. In picture 2, as the thumb slides up, there's certainly less space to move around. But it seems to reduce overall tension

40 minutes ago, Acebassmusic said:

I think pictures would help us in seeing what you are describing. Bass height and angle on the strap contribute significantly to how your hand interfaces with the neck. Scotts Bass Lessons does a couple of videos covering these areas which may give you ideas. 👍

 

Strap Height Video

Hand Position Video

 

Ha! Scott reccommends both that I don't bend my wrist and that I try to keep the tumb at the centre of the neck all the time. The problem is that I cannot do both. Not sure if it is a small hand thing or something. My strap is definitely not too low.

So, the first two pictures are what happens when I leave the thumb at the centre. 

The second set of pictures is me sliding the thumb up. Looks more natural in picture. Now, I think I remember I was thought not to do that because that reduces my reach on the neck. Chances are I was thaught that when I started on the guitar though.

It seems to me it is equally true on the bass in the sense that I feel much more "agile" with my palm not in contact with the neck [EDIT: not really the palm, the "proximal phalanges"]. Also I doubt I could play a 5-string P bass sliding the thumb up (not that I have one but you'll never know :D).

However, as I have experimented with sliding the thumb up tonight, it seems to me this reduces effort on the thumb. And I had plenty of issues there so, considering also that the wrist bends less, it is maybe the lesser of two evil?

1 minute ago, theplumber said:

Agreed. I have used Toneriders on a couple of guitars and head to head with some decent guitars held their own..in fact sounded better than the Fender stock pickups in my Vintera. Maybe better isn't the word but louder and clearer. As for Squiers...well as we all know by now some are great and some not so! I don't need a status symbol...in fact I don't need a Status!! But a decent playing and gigging guitar that doesn't cost a fortune and gets the job done!

I have at home a pickup from a Fender Classic 50s. I may be very wrong but I believe that was the "predecessor" of the Vintera. It is a great pickup but at the end of the day the Fender pickup is in a drawer and the Tonerider is in my bass (rigt now I am down to just one fretted P bass 😭 ). Like you, I would not say the Tonerider is better. Just works better for me at this moment.

7 minutes ago, theplumber said:

I recently had two Made in Mexico 50s type basses. One was a Vintera and the other the classic series. Both the same guitar,different name! I had to sell them as after a while I discovered I did not like the width of the neck. Fit and finish on both spot on. Soundwise really good! I had sold a Fender Player series p bass to fund one of the guitars. To be honest I could have kept it but have no room for many guitars! (I know,kick the lad out!!) Anyway I needed to fill the P bass gap and was just about to buy another Player series off Gumtree when I spotted a Squier Vintage Vibe 60s P bass in white! I had heard that these are really great guitars but as usual thought...beginners bass....not for me! Maybe even a bit of snobbery. Why buy a Squier when I can get a Fender! I looked at some second hand USA Fenders,then the player bass,then the Squier came up at a tad over £200 second hand in A1 condition! Decided to take a punt on it. As soon as I picked it up and played it I knew that the folk online had been right! It does feel,look,play and sound better than the Player series! Feels like my first P bass an early 70s thing long gone! Not for everyone but will know after a couple of gigs how I feel about it but for now...yes deffo worth a look at !

I did try in a shop a Fender Player and a Squier CV 60 and, while I was not sure 100%, I also was inclined to say that the Squier sounded better. I did prefer the Fender neck though. The Squier's was thicker. But that's by no mean a defect just a choice. I believe Squier CV 70s are thinner.

However, I thought than none of the two basses felt and sounded as well as my two Squier Affinity with Tonerider pickups, strings of my choice, setup to my liking and high-quality lightweight tuners. That was a great GAS-reducing experience.

Hi all. So here is my situation: when I play the tip of my thumb is always exactly in the centre of the neck, looking at it vertically. Always. To get to the E string, I bend the wrist forward. Because of that my palm never touches the bottom of the neck. Ever. Before basschat I did not know sharp fret edges were a thing. But apparently they are for most people, so this got me thinking.

I have a feeling that somebody at some point in the distant past may have thought me this technique as a good thing. But I am not sure.

Thinking about it, it's quite a big twist I give to my wrist to get to the E. That may not be a good thing.

Tonight I have tried letting the thumb slide up toward the top of the neck to play the E, so my wrist angle changes less. But that feels awkward in different ways. Maybe just because it's new.

What do you think is the "healthiest" option?