thodrik

Just now, joe_geezer said:

I can't argue with that, its just a shame younger gifted players won't have the opportunity to carry on the Wal legacy, the Wal ownership club will continue to be only for middle aged doctors and lawyers that can barely string 2 notes together 

It is a shame. However there are far far more options for high level, boutique quality basses in 2022 compared to the 1980s. Younger players have far more options now compared to the past and the quality of budget basses like Squier, Sire etc are miles ahead of the budget basses that would have been available in the 1980s and 1990s. 

That leads me to another question, if there was a Wal bass in the £2000-£3,000 market (a licenced made in Korea etc version), would younger players actually want one? Or would they consider it to be clunky, heavy and a bit 'old fashioned' compared to modern designs like Dingwall, Sandberg, Spector, Mayones, ACG Vigier etc? 

11 minutes ago, joe_geezer said:

And that's a shame that under Wal's current owners & business model (which is not the same business model as Waller's, who made affordable basses with reasonable wait times) you will not own one. 

 

 

 

Waller's business model is from about 30-40 years ago and a lot has changed since then. Whoever owns the IP and the company has the right to do with it as they see fit. Expansion comes with risk and we are in fairly uncertain times. If Paul Herman is running Wal for a profit and is living a healthy and happy life then he is not obliged to (a) reduce his prices or (b) expand his operations by taking financial risks which might not ultimately pan out for what is still a pretty niche product. 

1 hour ago, joe_geezer said:

So, would the general consensus  be, that folk, are happy that they probably will never have the means or the finances to own a Wal & that keeping the prices very high and the wait times very long is actually a positive sign that Wal are making great instruments - even if none of use will ever own one... ? Interested to hear your thoughts  

If you specifically want a Wal, Alembic, Ritter, Fodera, Sadowsky NYC, custom shop Warwick etc, and no other brand or make will do then you have to pay the associated premium. If you want 'a really nice high quality bass' then there are plenty of less expensive options that are as equally well made and might (but probably won't) become highly valuable in the future. 

I have played a Wal Mk 1 and while it was very nice I wouldn't have traded my current basses at the time for it (which were a late 70s Precision and a Vigier Excess). I did consider putting an order in ten years ago but I ended up buying a used Vigier Arpege five string and used Sadowsky NYC five string for a combined sum that was less than half the cost of a new Wal. I am comfortable with my decision. 

I would like a Wal, but probably won't ever buy one. I could even technically afford one, but can't justify the price for a bass that would be 'different but not necessarily better' than basses I already own and don't play enough already. 
 

17 minutes ago, acidbass said:

See also - Sadowsky.  To my mind, their decision to take the above approach has diluted the quality of a brand which would once have had the same reputation as Fodera etc.

As an owner of two Sadowskys (one NYC, one Metro) that is pretty much what I was thinking when I wrote my original post. 

It isn't meant as a slight on Warwick, who obviously make quality basses. But as soon as you go down a large scale licensing route it can be a slippery slope. 

Their business, their decision. 

The worst thing that they could do in my opinion is sign a licensing agreement with for mass-produced designs made in the far east with varying degrees of quality control. That would quickly ruin the exclusive nature of the brand and in turn reduce interest. Hell, if the licenced products were exceptional then it might actually reduce demand for the made in England instruments. 

The prices of Wals exceptionally high and the output of instruments is exceptionally low and the demand for the instruments is really high but the demand itself is from a relatively small client base. 

Of the major manufacturers who could be trusted to make a licensed Wal 'correctly'? Certainly not Fender or Gibson and I don't see why Musicman would be interested since they have their own products. Perhaps Warwick, but Warwick masterbuilds are just about as expensive as a Wal, plus a licensed 'Wal-wick' would no doubt benefit from 'improvements' like the Just a Nut, magnetic pick up covers which have appeared on the licenced Sadowskys. 

Best to stick to their current model. There are other exceptional luthiers and custom builds out there to consider in any event.

 

3 hours ago, JPJ said:

I once saw a guy playing bass in a pub band in Hull and he used the full TE stack of 1x18, 4x10, + Brightbox. Fortunately he was a tasty player as he certainly cut through the mix 🤣

I'm guessing that he was the entire mix!

After looking at the Trace Elliot historical catalogues thread, I really think that a 1x18 and 2x10 stack with an additional bright box is the way forward. The 18 for the lows, the 10s for the mids and the bright box for the highs. Use a mic on each cabinet, a pre-EQ DI and post EQ DI and send them all to the sound engineer who will obviously be delighted and entirely willing to cooperate with you for 45 minutes until the FoH sound in the small club is exactly to your liking. 

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

That's why he sounds so bad.

I would have thought that set up would at least give a decent clean tone…

I very much recommend to try before buying. The boutique J bass is a fairly saturated market and there are lots of options out there.
 

I own an NYC five string and a Metro four string, both dating from around 2009. Both J basses with 60s spacing and maple fingerboard. I bought the Metro brand new and NYC used in 2016. Both are great basses. In terms of the pre amp I really like it but I find that the best sounds are achieved with very minimal use of the preamp. Generally I turn the bass dial less than a quarter turn and leave the treble not boosted. 
 

Comparing my NYC to the Metro. The preamp and general fit and finish is pretty much identical. The NYC though just ‘feels’ more special because it has a quilted maple top and the neck has a cool vintage tint whereas the Metro has a very plain top and very plain fingerboard. In terms of the general sound they are very similar apart from the fact that the NYC has an extra string…

I have never really used the VTC. If I wanted a vintage sound then I would use another bass. To some though the VTC is an amazing feature.
 

Is a modern new NYC worth the money? Well, they are very expensive but also in very limited supply. To me the NYCs are now in the Wal, Fodera category in that the main customers are either top pros or people with lots of disposable income who just really want a Sadowsky NYC. 
 

I have used my Metro as my main gigging bass since 2009. No issues whatsoever and I won’t ever be selling it.

3 hours ago, nbaptista said:

And between the EBS 30 watts vs the 60 watts? Anyone tried both? I guess the 60 watts is much better, or am I wrong?

Pretty much the same apart from the 60 watt one having a slightly larger speaker, slightly more powerful amp and a bit heavier. 

I really like Phil Collins, even his work on the Brother Bear movie. 
 

I prefer the Load era Metallica albums to anything that has come since, mostly because I liked the slightly bluesier, alt-rock mixed with Sabbath and Skynyrd style and with less thrash metal. Granted a lot of the songs are generic but some of the tracks are very listenable mainstream rock.

I also really like the 1980s Fleetwood Mac albums when Buckingham and Nicks openly hated each other but seemed to keep on going purely for the money. 

At current and upcoming energy prices in the UK, the cost of boiling a kettle and then using the cooker to boil the strings will probably ended up being more expensive than the cost of buying new strings. So essentially, I view the process as a waste of water and electricity. 

I generally just buy long life coated strings. Yes, I prefer the initial sound of fresh non-coated strings which to me is a 10/10 sound, but usually the tone fades within 6 weeks leaving me with a 6/10 sound. A set of Elixirs or similar strings gives me an 9/10 sound for about 18 months. 

The drums on St Anger sound great.

Yepp, I consider this good news. Spector and Vox have done well under Korg. Korg also acquired Aguilar which isn’t struggling. Yamaha bought Ampeg as well and this is generally thought of as a positive development.

If nothing else, I would actually enjoy it if Korg dialled back on the patented Darkglass marketing strategy of releasing a pedal, waiting 6 months, and then releasing a slightly different version of the same pedal in the Ultra or V2 format.

I do really rate the Ashdown heads. I find that they cut through better when I cut the main bass EQ to about 10 or 11 o clock and effectively use the next two sliders as my de facto 'Bass' control. It definitely tightens things up, particularly on higher settings of the drive control. I generally don't use the pre-shape.

Honestly, with so many young people these days being socially aware, not drinking and very health conscious, rock bands are very tame in 'wildness levels' compared to the bands of the 60s-90s. 

I say this as someone who turned 36 today...

17 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

I have also had designs stolen, it’s becoming a bigger and bigger deal as design cycles shorten with increased competition. I feel you pain here.

 

Even if I was to design an SMPS/class D module, due to the complexity and difficulty to troubleshoot versus the cost of building the module, it would still be less expensive in most cases to simply replace the module.

 

The problem with the higher technology is that it’s very expensive and time consuming to develop, and even more so to do it reliably. (There are plenty of examples of unreliable “roll your own” designs by big and small manufacturers alike).

 

In order to amortize these costs (and that includes global safety and EMC certification) to keep the cost per module down, the production volumes need to be much higher than most in the bass industry could ever use in several lifetimes. This is why top tier companies like ICEPower exist, they sell to other industries also, in addition to dominating the bass market. This allows them to spread the NRE costs across hundreds of thousands to millions of modules. Economies of scale are responsible for class D being a viable solution AND a good value to the players.

This is a really enlightening post. 

As a useless anecdotal note, my 'dream amps' as a teenager in the late 90s and early to mid 2000s were generally the boutique hybrid/Mosfet amps or all valve amps that were priced at around £1500-£2000 bracket even then. The cost of the boutique class D bass heads that my 14 year old nephew dreams of owning are generally in the £800-£1200 bracket in 2022. In the meantime the cost of a passive US made Fender bass (say the old American Standard compared to the new American Pro) have essentially doubled in the same timeframe. 

With that in mind I think that the modern class D amps offer phenomenal value. 

Done. Best of luck.

9 minutes ago, Salt on your Bass? said:

Some lovely gear! I'd love to try the Mesa 610 with the big block. That's an amp I've always coveted but never owned. 

I'll try and soon some of your tunes over the weekend! 

What's the green pedal on your board?

Thanks! The green pedal is a clone of an Earthquaker Hummingbird. My pal is now making loads of pedals. I also have a GCI Bass Brutalist overdrive which I actually use for guitar.

The Mesa 6x10 is the best cab I have ever used. Just brutally and impractically heavy and frankly unnecessary for most gigs. Big Block is immense too. I wanted that head for about 12 years before I finally got one!

13 minutes ago, Triumph_Rock said:

That's really good, I enjoyed it! 

Thanks, I entirely forgot I posted a link to the album in this very thread last year! I am turning into some kind of stoner/doom spammer. Apologies all!

I have five main basses with each bass getting alternated every few weeks when I practice. I have owned all but one of my basses for well over a decade so I am familiar with them all to the extent that I can chop and change on short notice. The most played one at home is my 'new' five string as I am still familiarising myself with it as I have only owned it since 2016.

I might practice sitting down, I might practice standing up. When I practice sitting down I still retain the ability to play a gig, rehearse or record standing up, so it has never been an issue for me.  If I can't play something standing up that I can play sitting down then I take this as a sign that my strap is in the wrong position rather than I need to practice standing up more. 

46 minutes ago, Salt on your Bass? said:

So back on topic, what rigs, basses and boards is everyone rocking in the basschat doom world? 

Also interested if people are in bands and links etc ✌️

Basses, rigs, artwork and pedals attached!

Main doom machine is my old P bass. Generally I tune to C sharp standard or drop B. Five strings are tuned the same but with an added high A string, so despite being used for stoner/doom they are tuned 'up' rather than down from a standard five string. Main gigging amp is actually the Mesa combo but used to gig the Fafner with a Trace Elliot 1x15 I gave to my nephew. I've had the V6 and Fafner for a about a decade each. Big Block and 6x10 I just got for silly money second hand in the last few years. Presently saving up for a 4x10 that is more practical than the 6x10!

Pedals are a work in progress. Not convinced if I like the voicing on the B3K. Unfortunately though I discovered this after I recorded a whole album with one...

https://electricmother1.bandcamp.com/album/ii
Joined this band when I moved back up north.  Not toured like we planned because of Covid. When I joined we recorded an album with plans to tour more extensively but Covid hit and that touring is probably not going to happen, probably ever. The album was finished off during lockdown which unfortunately affected the final quality but it was either that or not finishing the album. Not really doom, just drop C fuzz rock. Currently on hiatus due to house moves, job changes/promotions and new babies, might be back playing later in the year. 

Older band did a small EP that was more in a proggy melodic doom direction, production is rubbish though as it was meant to just be a demo and we split up before we recorded it properly. Has a bass solo on it somewhere. Frankly wish we had recorded it properly. https://khydra.bandcamp.com/album/skycrasher

Trying to record with my other band this year, but need to buy a better laptop so we can record. Will post something in this thread if and when we manage to record something.

Edit: apologies that the pictures are massive. I'm not sure how to make them smaller!

8 hours ago, funkypenguin said:

 

Some of the materials they use are very expensive (such as CITES certified Brazilian rosewood), others are very time consuming to work with (such as Buckeye), but it's a combination of factors that make Fodera so expensive, as Jason explained in that talkbass thread. Some people seem to think that Fodera are raking in money but met them and talked to them at some length, they're really not. 

Pretty sure manufacturers use Brazilian rosewood and buckeye and markedly different price points to Fodera, including manufacturers in the New York area so I don’t believe that this a determining factor.

I have no doubts that Fodera do not make a massive profit relative to the price. Length of the builds, relatively low output of instruments, the need to pay luthiers a good wage on account of the skill required, cost of running a business, admin costs, marketing costs, local taxes. They all add up, though of course most boutique manufacturers have similar issues.
 

Though essentially if you need to have a Fodera (or a Wal or a Ritter) then there is an inherent cost involved.

5 hours ago, Kev said:

 

But some interesting points raised here for sure, but I'd still question if they only make a 10% profit on bulding a $35k bass, there's something not quite right.  But i'll certainly have a read into why the Presentation models need to be so expensive.

I have similar thoughts. When I was 15 I just assumed that the more extravagant basses were constructed out of really expensive wood!

To me it looks like a concept piece that requires a lot of hours to make and that results in a high price. Perhaps the asking price is a means of Fodera essentially saying 'yes, we can make this bass, but it is very difficult and complicated and we are only going to do it if it is really worth our while'. The price point is probably set on the understanding that Fodera don't expect (or particularly want) to receive thousands of orders.

I am pretty sure you spec a Warwick, Wal or a Ritter and come to the same price eventually if you add enough options. I put Fodera in the same category as those type of custom orders in that these are not instruments designed for sale to the general public but are instruments to be acquired by a very small clientele who frankly have money to burn, for whom a ridiculously expensive bass is no different to a ridiculously expensive concept car, luxury watch etc. As a result, this type of pricing does not really irritate me whatsoever. 

Frankly, it irritates me more when I see Warwick made Sadowsky Masterbuilt basses being sold at a higher pricepoint than Sadowsky basses made by Roger Sadowsky and even that doesn't really irk me, particularly given Warwick are entirely within their rights to set whatever price point they like under the licensing agreement and Warwick masterbuilt basses don't come cheap.