lowrentdiscographer

2 hours ago, RichardH said:

Overall port length - so keep the original dims and bring it forward.

Thanks Richard.

I've just been in the back garden, made a saw fence and cut up a sheet of ply into the major pieces.

I was hoping to do a bit of a noddy-spec how-to, but it was just too cold to be messing about and the ply needed getting out of the way.

Resurrection!

Some ply arrived yesterday. Before I start cutting...

I want to make a shallow sacrifice to aesthetics, and it's something I did on the last build without thinking, but I thought I'd run it by the wisdom of the BC crowd this time.

I want to extend the front edge of the port top so that it runs flush with all the other front edges of the cab, and ideally the same with the fore-aft port "runners". This deviates from the EV plan, where the port top plate doesn't extend beyond the baffle.

Is it the overall port length that is important or the depth it reaches into the box? To achieve what I want, can I extend the port top's front edge, or do I leave it at it's original dims and move the whole port forward. Or do I stop being silly and just leave it as-plan?

Thanks, Steve.

5 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

You'll find it is difficult to source small amounts of sheet material, generally the smallest amount is an 8x4 sheet or 1220x2440mm in new money. Even that can be problematic from local suppliers or the big chains and this adds to the cost. Jewsons however were offering Birch ply with a poplar core  recently at a good price. Fortunately a lot of fast growing poplar was planted in Europe a few decades ago so expect some of it to replace dwindling tropical hardwoods used in making ply. 

 A 20kg single cab solution is not ridiculously heavy (12mm birch+ driver) The only way to get much below this is to reduce the size of the cab but this sacrifices bass response as I've mentioned, as Bill pointed out the EV design already sacrifices some bass for portability. I wouldn't have started with the Kappa for bass, it has limited excursion for bass, a far too strong mid peak and needs a big cab to get the best out of it but that doesn't mean Steve needs to go out and spend, he already knows what this speaker sounds like in the EV design. 8kg is a lot of weight saving. I use the 20Kg bar for exercise with lots of reps but can barely get 30kg above my head.

Designing any cab is a bit of balloon squeezing, as you tighten your grip in one area something else pops up elsewhere and in the end you have to compromise. For me that is half the fun  

Pretty much this.

IF I were doing the full new setup thing, I'd still be tempted to self build. But I would probably go for a pair of higher grade 1x12's, for more options of volume and portability. Maybe next year?

1 hour ago, RichardH said:

I juts played with that very nifty ply weight calculator:

An area of 1.57m2 using 18mm MDF gives 20.76kg (plus the 8kg of the driver and allow some for hardware etc gives the quoted weight of the current cab). Here are the weights for various materials

18mm MDF: 20.76kg

18mm Birch: 17.55kg

18mm spruce/poplar: 12.42kg

12mm birch: 11.7kg 

I wouldn't use 12mm poplar unless you really know what you're doing with bracing etc. So if you can get hold of 18mm poplar then you'd be nearly as light as a 12mm birch cab - though the cab will still weigh 21kg once the driver etc is added. 

I got very similar numbers, and I think represent significant weight savings?

1 hour ago, LukeFRC said:

@Bill Fitzmaurice can't suggest it... but I can.... 

Look at his designs for cabs. You will need to check if your speaker works for one of the Simplexx range but I would think given the time and materials you will be putting in there's nothing wrong in buying a proven, tested design. 
https://billfitzmaurice.info/Simplexx.html 

For my 2p - by the time I'm buying lightweight ply Ild probably consider buying a new driver and see what existing designs are out there that suit what I'm after...

The only thing that stopped me looking deeper at the simplex - I know there is a non-tweeter 1x15 bass cab version in the plan set- is a significant height and width increase over the ev. I've little doubt it would be a great cab, but it would be very tight in it's live-in space.

That said I'm not sure I follow the logic of your 2nd point. Ply cost, even nicer stuff, is nowhere near the cost of ply + posh new driver.

Still, might be worth thinking about some more.

13 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

You can use too much damping in a ported cab. An inch to inch and and a half is sufficient. I mainly use open cell foam mattress topper, which works better than acoustical egg crate foam at a much lower cost. Omni 10 was replaced by the Jack 10 in my lineup twelve years ago. I feel that if you can't carry on a conversation when in a small rehearsal place it's too loud. If you ask Pete Townshend's opinion on the subject, or any subject, his usual reply will be "sorry mate, I can't hear you!"

I don't disagree. However, (and I made this point in another thread)...

Guitarists.

I'll give mattress topper a whirl in the new build.

Ta

Steve

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Roof insulation is the wrong material, but in any event a bare cab interior doesn't brighten the sound, if anything it dulls it. Without damping sound waves reflect off the panels back to the cone, causing peaks and dips, mostly dips, in the midrange response, and if anything a boomy tone in the midbass.

Hi Bill.

The exact material name I can't remember now, it was a wool-type material but it was made from recycled plastic fibres rather than fibreglass, and it's texture was somewhere between fibreglass insulation and cotton wool. 

I think at least one problem with the stuff I used is it might have been just too thick, a couple of inches depth at least, and it filled A LOT of the cab space. When I'd lined the sides, back and top, it was like the driver had it's own little fluffy nest to sit in! (There was a picture of this on my original build thread, but the photos have been lost, both from the thread and my originals).

Because it's taken more than a decade to break the cab out of my house and into a live band situation, I've never had the need to crank up the volume (other than to very occasionally torment the wife or neighbours) and I wondered if maybe it was being strangled (very haphazard layman-ism) somehow by being over-stuffed. It also occurred that thermally insulating a hard working electromagnet/coil/thingy might not be good. So I pulled it all out in the heat of battle. I ultimately believe that the real problem with my sound is simply we play too loud for the rehearsal space - possibly a bigger example of the sound-wave reflections you describe?

I know Bill you have a great deal of experience and produce some very highly regarded designs for various purposes - I gave some consideration to building a pair of your (now discontinued?) Omni 10's as a second build when I finished this first cab, but being as it hasn't really seen the use, there wouldn't have been much point.

I do like (having a cheeky go at) making "stuff" - but I'm not really a gear head or GASser and I've no delusion that I'm any sort of audio engineer (Nor a musician, but that's a different conversation).

It's like the old adage of a little knowledge being dangerous! When you see peeps doing good work on the interweb it's sometimes a bit too easy to convince yourself to jump in and have a go.

My original build requirements were a gig-able high-ish power handling cab for not much outlay, these requirements are not fundamentally different now, with losing a bit of weight being the main one (again, now it's getting frequent use it's biggest shortcoming is ever-more apparent, although it will be less so now tier 4 lockdown is in full effect).

This is a bit of a ramble. Sorry! I guess I'm trying to excuse myself for not knowing exactly what I what or how to do it...

8 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

The speaker weighs 8kg so this is a really heavy cab. That's MDF for you. you can play with this Large panels | OSB board | MDF board | Plywood | Chipboard | Weight | Calculator (timberpolis.co.uk) ready reckoner  and work out for your self how much lighter just changing the board material will make your cab. MDF is great unless you have to carry it

Change the volume to area and thickness will come up

Thanks Phil I'll have a look.

In the interest of knowing what we're up against, I thought I'd post a few pics of the current cab.

The build is mdf, the joint reinforcement is pine, all joints are screwed and glued EXCEPT for the back panel which is screws & weatherstrip gasket.

It was lined with roof insulation but I've torn this all out because I was trying to brighten the sound a bit, so that's why it looks a bit scruffy inside.

The speaker cables are soldered at both ends, I might not do that again and use push on connectors.

The black finish on the bottom panel is some sort of rubber sealant - can't remember exactly what it was now. (I think a rebuild would not get lined in the same way, rather I think I'd give the whole interior a coat of automotive underseal?)

The grille is perforated ali.

Weight (according to highly accurate bathroom scales...) is 29.75 kg...

I was lucky when I built this that the guy who ran the saw station at my local B&Q was happy to do whatever cuts were needed, including the thin pieces for the port construction, and I pretty much walked out with a full panel kit. Now they limit the number and minimum sizes of cut, so I will be stuck with a hand-held circular saw and making a saw fence.

Quick update:

I think I'm going to remake a standard 606 cab, from 12mm ply.

If I remake to the same internal dimensions, including port area, this means that the top of the port will be thinner material that on the original plan and in turn the baffle will need to grow in height slightly to compensate, I'm assuming this is no issue?

Also, I intend to build this without all the internal cleats. Currently my plan is simple butt joints, but pinned with dowels added after the joints are made, and silicon sealed. I'm concerned this might not be road-worthy enough?

With respect to bracing - would a couple of braces running top to bottom and side to side, with maybe 4 arranged around the driver radius, from baffle to the back panel, be sufficient?

13 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Thanks Bill, I had noticed some of the already entered data can be false. I've always entered the parameters manually for my own designs and I didn't check this time. As for the box for the EV it's a 90l cab tuned to 55 or 40Hz I checked both and I'd go for the 55Hz tuning with this speaker. I think Steve has enough to make some choices about which way to go and I'm happy to answer questions and tweak the design as he goes if that's what he wants.

Actually, and in that spirit...

The one bit I'm missing is the basschat mk1 plan... is there a files section or similar I should be looking for? Everything I've found so far has been for 12" driver. Or would I need to be doing some conversion work from the 12" design (scary)?

On the 606 I built, I configured the centre port permanently plugged - the 55hz tune is with this port also open?

25 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

It took longer to type than to calculate  the cost is that if you do build to put up some pics of the build here to encourage others to have a go.

Oh I will, I do have form...

Brighter could work - its not a sound I instinctively like but I've had a thread running in the effects forum where I've been trying to get some cut-through/presence back after acquiring a new bass that was becoming lost in the rock/alternative 4 piece band im playing with.

It looks to me like you've put a lot of effort into this q for me Phil, and on a Sunday morning (in the UK anyways) to boot. So again thanks.

I'll see if I can find the appropriate bc plan on the site and compare that with my existing 606. 8kg saved would be great, 12, well, better by half again!

44 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

 If I get time today I'll have a quick look at running the Kappa through the design software and suggest a cab for you that matches your speaker. 

Phil that's awesome but please don't put yourself out - unless you really want to! When I asked for a cab plan I only really meant if someone could say "Matey you want a JoeBloggs123 ..." off the topnotch their head and to be fair I was half expecting to be told to pull my finger out and do more research first...

I'll have a look at the Eminence website now.

Ta.

Hi,

A long, long time ago (well about 11 years) I built an EV TL606 1 x 15 loaded with an Eminence kappa 450w 8 ohm driver, with help from this forum.

It turned out surprisingly well given I had no idea what I was doing (and still don't) however it turned out very heavy. I built it in MDF.

I'm considering a fresh box, maybe made from 9mm ply to lose a bit of heft, but would like to ask a couple of questions before I go any further...

1) is there a more suitable, freely available cabinet plan for this driver? I researched the driver and the cabinet specs when I built it but part of the driver choice was informed not just by technical (which I'd be lying if I said i really understood) specs but by a bang-for-buck requirement, and the ability to handle "half" of the Hartke LH500 that I was bought to drive it (about 350w at 8 ohm iirc).

2) if I elect to simply rebuild a lighter 606, will it be ok with a straight box with the same internal dimensions or would it need some extra internal bracing?

I'm not sure im going to press ahead with this anyway, and I'm definitely not in the market for a bought boutique or branded cab. I'm not looking for anyone's latest and greatest either, just whether there are anys alternative known, solid, free (or at least cheap) plans that might be better suited to my other kit.

Motivation is that I may have a gig, and the mantra of the fledgling band I'm in, is rehearse with what you'll be using, and ideally I want a little less heft to deal with, but getting spendy is frankly off the cards.

I've seen a few recent threads featuring a BassChat project 12 inch cab, don't suppose there's a 15 inch equivalent?

Thanks in advance...

Steve

Hi, just thought I'd round out this thread by confirming what has been said about amp eq/tone stack, and the changing of the bass' strings, has gone a long way to solving the problem I first described, so thanks to ALL who contributed whatever the suggestion.

Sadly the singer I mentioned didn't work out but we do have a "booking" for June (Guitarist Mrs 40th, short set, hour tops, covid permitting)so there will be plenty more questions to come...

Last night we had a short noticed practice and I put a bit of what we've talked about into practice (apart from using a pick, tried for about 2 bars...) it was better. Got close using the amp eq (essentially left at 2 10 2) and then tried to get a little bit more from the eq. Haven't noticed it before but the eq pedal is very noisy. Remmub, not sure I can live with the amount of his it was giving.

Today I've changed the strings on the p. They were a heavier gauge than what I normally use so I put a roto 45 - 105 set on (will have to get some spares. We're trying out a singer o  Tuesday night so we'll see what difference that makes then...

1 minute ago, King Tut said:

What @Cuzzie said about the lH500 eq. It's not very intuitive until you understand how it works. Your settings are very mid light and it's the mids that cut through a mix on bass.

This seems to be the consensus so I'll do some work here. It does mean that I'll have to commit to taking my rig to every practice, and my cab is HEAVY... but as needs must. It is what I'll be playing with.

26 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Experiment with where you play on the bass - fingers or pick, play nearer the neck - it’s a fatter sound, nearer the bridge - thinner sound - you can get a variety within a song just by this alteration depending on what you want with no EQ changes.

I do try to move my plucking hand about, a bit. On the Ibanez, which has 2 big pickups, I had 2 easy options for this. Obviously on th p going bridge-ward means floating about a bit.

Picks... I'm not anti-pick, it was just a phase in my youth! However it does feel supremely alien and it always sounds extremely overly-bitey, all 'click' and no 'note' when I've tried. Maybe this is down to the extra scoop you've spied in my setup, as much as my technique?

21 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Also a passive tone knob won’t boost the pass as the treble rolls off, it just doesn’t work that way.

That was/is the one thing that was immediately apparent!

10 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

For different tunings whether you start normal, or down half a step, do you then go to drop D or Drop C?

If it’s something simple like ‘normal’ tuning (be it half a step down or not) and into drop D, then your options are - leave it in drop D and just learn the normal tuning lines fretting the 2nd fret on the E string when you would use an open string, or if that doesn’t feel right, get a Hipshot Drop D tuner so it’s an easy flick between songs with no rigmarole 

Cuzzie,

We have normal, Eb and drop d in our list of songs, but we half already decided that for convenience we are only playing them in normal or drop d. If an e-flat song doesn't sound good (enough) in regular e then it'll be dropped (unless we reconsider that stance, I'm guessing it's sacrilege to some).

D-tuner could be a goer - one thing though, when I detune/retune the e string I find the other 3 can wobble slightly (at least that's what my tuner says,  not totally convinced I can hear it) so does it require any other setup?

2 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

One thing I will say about the LH500 amp is that it uses the old Fender Tone stack.

So........

A flat EQ, corresponding to the numbers on the dials going Bass-Mid-treble is 2-10-2 (the 2 could be 3)

The EQ you have set according to the clock position is very bass and treble heavy with a massive mid scoop.

Add your on bass EQ in

Could this new accounting for what you are hearing?

Erm.. could be?

I'll try starting from where you say, and see if I can get the p to something I like, then see if I can get the Ibanez somewhere close being as it has more to go at...

7 minutes ago, King Tut said:

Also if you’re planning to switch basses mid set - that’s another can of worms. Actives are often much louder than passives, not to mention having different tonal characteristics so unless you can set them up so they’re sounding pretty much the same in tone and level, or have some kind solution where you can set up two switchable patches (by a multi fx or programmable amp) I’d try to avoid that for the time being until you’ve got a bit more experience gigging or playing in loud environments. I mean, I’m not saying it’s not doable, but I’m still agonising over pickup height setting, gain settings etc etc and I’ve been gigging for 35 odd years. I had a couple of occasions last year out on tour where we’d play a Blues Devils set first set playing as our own support band. And a Stray set as the main set. I’d use a Jazz or Mustang for the first set and a Ric for the main set. Being a vain bugger I don’t like wearing my glasses on stage. I’d get off stage first set having planned to alter the volume on one of my pedals to match the basses volumes. Then think ‘did i alter it or not?’ ‘Am I remembering last night’. Get back on stage - check the pedal and not be able to see the settings  - grrrrFFS this getting old lark is doing me nut in!!

To be fair to you it’s good that you’re looking forward and you’ve come to the right place for advice so I hope you get it sorted.What i will say - and you’re learning this already, playing loud and/or live is a different ballgame to quiet playing and different challenges arise - be patient, you’ll get there!

My main problem, and one that I can only blame myself for, is that I've always been a 'coaster' when it comes to playing music. Learn a line, learn a riff, learn a bit of a technique,  threaten to get something going with college mates, get drunk instead... then all of a sudden you're a grown up.

I had a 3 month round of lessons about a 10 years back, not for grades or anything, really just to set a bar as to where I was at and what I could and couldn't do.

Dad-band v1 failed to get any traction a couple of years back. I'm more hopeful this time, although we'll never set anyone's world alight, that we'll be able to perform at some level. The lead guitarist is a firm friend and we've got a sort of parallel history in terms of musical experience. Part of this is absolutely going to be about working out the limits that our lack of experience will let us work to.

I expect in the main our sets will be short - the warm up act to the warm up act to the local working band when they play that community gig that they can't really be desra with because its Saturday day time and they're playing on a trailer in a village square packed with market stalls - would be about the height of our vision. So maybe a setlist that doesn't require different tunings would be the way to go...

On 04/12/2020 at 11:09, Jus Lukin said:

If you can let us know how you are setting the preamp on the active basses we may be able to give you a few more pointers, but the solution will be in comparing the sounds of the Ibanez and Yamaha basses to the P. If they are simply brighter then it may be as easy as above- if you are using a particular EQ, then it may be worth replicating that to a degree on the amp. Essentially, tweaking the P to sound like the actives will retain the Precision voice, but make sure you are hearing whatever the frequencies were that helped the actives remain present in the mix.

On my Ibanez there are 4 knobs set in a line.

The first is volume, which I usually set to about 10 o clock (with 12 being) full. Solely so I've got a little bit extra if things get louder.

The next is pan, I think. This has a centre notch, I roll this forward to the neck pickup to about 1.30 PM.

The next is bass, i think. I roll this forward to about 1 o clock.

The last is treble i guess, and I leave it in the centre/flat.

On MY LH500 eq - using o-clocks rather than the dial numbers, I go for 2PM ish on bass, 11am on mids and 1pm on treble. I turn the limiter ON but not the bright switch. This powers a single 1x15 homemade to EV TL606 spec which is loaded with an eminence kappa 15a (450w rated, 8 ohm).

I like how this sounds without any effects added. Even though the treble isn't overbearing in terms of twang it's still very 'present' when playing along with my dad-pals.

Another member has quite rightly suggested playing with the amp eq.

When convenience dictates using the studios own gear - it's a bit more hit and miss because the gear changes and you're racing to get going.

I've made one other change since op which is I've pulled the stuffing out of my cab. This has helped to a degree alongside the eq pedal, when playing with the P. I've also started pushing the P tone knob up past halfway - but not by much.

2 hours ago, bazzbass said:

your first option is to buy a cheap pedal? Try adjusting your amp's EQ section,that is what it is there for.

 

You rolled off your tone knob for no apparent reason,then complain you can't hear yourself. Put all your tone back and try again.....

Hiya bazzbazz

Well I was hoping for a solution that means I can avoid re-dialling in amp e.q. if I'm to switch basses. Preferable to gnireggub about retuning between standard and drop d, I'd have thought. No, we're not gigging (yet, if ever) and we're only getting to the point where about half a dozen songs are roughly into shape (boundless &  prolific creative talents we are not)

You rolled off your tone - Yes, yes I did, but not for no apparent reason. It might be a bit noddy but isn't a 'nice sound' (insert subjective or objective descriptions as appropriate) one of the things we want? I was looking for a sound that roughly equates to what I was used ro from my Ibanez. 

Complain? Not sure there bb, I think what presented was a (possibly incomplete, with a lack of understanding) description of what I perceived a problem to be, and a query as to how I might resolve it. The obvious point is that they're different instruments, but I'm pretty sure performers big and small swap instruments mid set every once in a while without disappearing or overpowering the mix?

Put all your tone back and try again? Ok, I already know that works, in that I can hear myself fine, but I sound like a banjo. Unless we're saying super bright twangy treble-y sound = 'tone' and that's the end of it? I know we aren't playing RnB, but ideally like a little bit of round/fat to then sound. Maybe I'm asking too much.

Hey, that level of pragmatism actually works for me, maybe I'll just roll with it.

Apologies if my tone is off, I might well be a little triggered (as the kids say) by you saying I'm complaining. It MUST be a case of I'm doing it wrong - because if I knew I was doing it right, wouldn't have needed to ask...