Balcro

17 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Well done @Balcro really good information.

 

Of those two responses I'd go for the Faital The LaVoce has a 2db peak centered around 110Hz which will give a noticably warmer less focussed sound whilst the Faital clearly has a stronger magnet giving a tighter bass. That's not by a huge amount but it will be noticeable. That's not to say @TRBboy that you might not prefer the warmer sound and it might well be what the original Trace speaker sounded like. It's not uncommon for commercial speakers to be created to be artificially warm and many bassists like that sound.

APOLOGIES TO TRBBoy and Phil Starr:-

In my earlier text I transposed the colours for the two drivers. It is the Faital that is the MAUVE line, the LaVoce is ORANGE.

Regards,

Balcro.

The results are in!
Based upon the OP's supplied internal dimensions, the Faital and the LaVoce are very close. WinISD calculates the net volume as 59.80 litres and with those two ports, the tuning is 60.06Hz.  LaVoce is mauve line, the Faital is orange. Input power 180W. Both are very loud.

See graphs for transfer function, power handling and cone excursion.

Faital Pro 400 neo £179.

Hello TRBboy,
It looks as if Bill Fitzmaurice has found a really useful speaker. The LAVOCE is  £120 from bluearan.co.uk.

Precise measurements of internal cabinet volume, internal port width and port length are needed from you. Then the speaker modellers on here can get to grips with showing you what you could get for your money.

Excellent refurb. Well done.

OP.

Why not try here? Promising?

https://hartke.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360045666093-Hartke-Service-Centers

I spoke too soon.

"We no longer offer recone kits.  You can order replacement speakers for your Hartke product by contacting Customer support at [email protected] .  "

Tjohnlee,

If all else fails, and even hartke.com can't help, except at extortionate price, then there is still a way to put the cab back to good health. However, do not forget the wise words from Phil Starr -

"Any replacement speaker is not going to sound like the Hartke original, even if they are a good match for the cab the midrange which gives most of the character will be entirely different".

There are some well matched speakers with a good tonal balance and with an upper frequency response that appears to extend beyond the Hartke original, which will produce a good result.  I don't think you'll find them lacking in punch. Before we can give you further advice we need your co-operation to provide some measurements.

1. The internal height,  width & depth measurements of the cabinet.
2. The width and height of the slot port.
3. The depth of the top panel to the slot port, measured from the outside.
4. Inches are fine. We can do the conversions.

https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/04/kiss_are_now_immortal/?td=rt-3a

If you are genuinely in Freetown, Sierra Leone then you need to contact a Korg Distributor for Parts and Service. If Freetown is a euphemism, then try here:-

https://www.korg.co.uk/pages/repairs

When you say "sounding good", the question must be "what sounds good to you". Given that you have the Beyma SM212, I find that there have been subtle changes to it over time. My own files from 2014 show an Fs of 40.5Hz, but according to the listing under "Discontinued Speakers" it has a Fs of 43Hz. Such subtle alterations by manufacturers over a production run are normal, but it might be sensible for any plans to be based around the higher Fs.

An extract from Phil Starr's inital briefing on the  general design spec,

https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/227904-1x12-cab-design-diary

Capable of keeping up with an unamplified drum kit (120dB across most of the frequency range)
Compact (60l or less)
Neutral /clean sounding
Easy to handle
Good low frequency power handling
Readily available components, and easy to build
Value for money.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe the SM212 was the driver that was finally chosen for the BC Mk.1.

If you're basically happy with a little "warmth" and an overall even presentation of sound, then building to a 60L internal volume will give you that. Please see the "recommended internal volume" here.

https://www.beyma.com/en/products/c/low-mid-frequency/112SM2128/altavoz-sm-212-8-oh/

The DATA Sheet is here:-
https://www.beyma.com/speakers/Fichas_Tecnicas/beyma-speakers-data-sheet-low-mid-frequency-SM212.pdf

There will have to be compromises in the design - building a 60L box with 12mm panels and some bracing may turn out to be heavier than 10Kg. The Basschat "massive" will undoubtedly advise you further on developing your loudspeaker.

The best of luck.

104 HAGLEY ROAD
EDGBASTON, BIRMINGHAM B16 8LT
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

P: 0121 456 1904

[email protected]

These people appear to be the distributors in England, but judging by the lack of obvious stock they're not doing a good job. Anyway, worth a call to find out the situation. If they can't do the job, then strinsdirect.co.uk  can usually be relied up to come up trumps, but it may take some time.

For general listening and comfort I have the Beyer Dynamic DT-880.

The Pro versions of the 770, 880 and 990 all have a slightly elevated treble response so are best for recording / monitoring etc. Comments have been made by reviewers that the PRO series have stronger headbands for a tighter fit over the ears.

On 27/07/2023 at 12:31, MacDaddy said:

Morrissey calls BS on music industry tributes to Sinead O'Connor.

In this instance I agree with him.

 

https://consequence.net/2023/07/morrissey-sinead-oconnor/

 

 

Good Post!

Morrissey is so right

THanks for the picture. Combining that with the list of parameters in Stevie's post tells a big story.

Those speaker drive units are poor. "xmax 3.3mm!"; "totally inadequate"; "the stock drivers are fairly flimsy". Those comments say it all. The speakers aren't up to the job.

Give the the K212 a trial, but take your own amp and leads to test. Start off with the eq set to flat ( as per the handbook) and adjust from there. Good luck.

As Bill said, go and try for starters.

The move to a 2 x 12 would give a small increase in drive-unit thermal headroom, but not necessarily more bass and or more volume.

Your first paragraph suggests the output from the cab is sounding a bit stressed, so before jumping to buy a 2x12 I suggest you indicate on this thread, where you have set your volume & tone controls on the amp.

Alternatively, try some different e.q settings, such as progressively cutting the bass and then progressively increasing the low-mids - test & re-test. Then repeat for the hi-mids. After that consider leaving the treble flat or even trimming it back.

Hello albinokiller,

There are many 10" bass drivers that could fit in there. Judging by pictures I would estimate that the internal volume of the combo is about 70 litres. Are there any port tubes in the speaker enclosure - what is the diameter and the length of the port(s)?

What brands of speaker are available to you in Croatia?

To clarify, in which cabinet are you thinking of installing a new 15" driver? The old MESA or the TL606. There's quite a difference in INTERNAL volume between the two boxes. This EV specsheet shows a TL606 design that is in excess of 85 litres internal volume. Whereas my best guess for the MESA box is around 60 litres.

https://www.realoldiesradio.com/docs/EV/ElectroVoice_TL606.pdf

 Take a look at the graph below for the EVM 15L (orange line) and reference Bill Fitzmaurice's earlier comment from a few  days ago. I found the T/S parameters from here:-
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/169588/Electro-Voice-Pro-Line-Evm-15l.html?page=4#manual

With a cabinet volume of 60 litres and tuning set to 55Hz as an example that was quoted earlier, the output at 50Hz is down over 11dB! In short, you're quite right. Loud it may be, but it's all in the low mids  200-500Hz. By comparison, it's upper frequency response is only down -3dB @ 1800Hz.

If you have the EVM 15B (light blue line), things get better, but only a litttle. There are small improvements in bass volume around the 70 - 220Hz area, so even more thump, otherwise the two speakers are similar up to about 1200Hz from where the "B" output drops away.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/43648/Electro-Voice-Evm-15b.html

In short, I suspect you're probably handicapped by the size of the MESA cabinet. 60 litres, if that's the true volume, is today, a bit of an in-between size. Many 15" drivers will still work but prefer 70litres or more to give of their best.

If you consider the Kappalite 15LF into 60 litres (grey line), it's response curve is much like the "B" just as BFM said. However, it's output from 50 -100Hz is beyond the "B".  Lastly, the Kappalite LF into 84 litres (mauve line) and tuning is @ 47Hz.

All inputs set to 150W. All slot ports set to 30cm x 4.7cm. EV speakers set to a system tuning of 55Hz. Kappalite examples tune to 47Hz.

PS.   ?? 4.6cu.ft = just under 129 litres.

The answer is all over the internet.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/apr/23/musicians-hearing-loss-sound-of-metal

See Myles Kennedy and Eleanor Goodman

_______________________________________________________________________________

https://producersociety.com/tips-for-music-producers-hearing-loss/

Record producers suffering hearing loss

________________________________________________________________________________

https://www.healthyhearing.com/report/53196-Musicians-tinnitus-and-hearing-loss
"But most challenging of all is that most musicians keep their tinnitus secret out of fear that it will affect their public and professional reputation, which leads to only greater suffering and isolation. This is especially true for people on the production and engineering side of the music business."

_______________________________________________________________________________

https://downbeats.com/10-famous-musicians-with-hearing-loss/

Moby’s permanent hearing damage came early in his career, when he was playing in a lot of punk bands and before he made his name as an electronic music producer.

______________________________________________________________________________

https://www.thecavanproject.com/musicians-hearing-loss/

See particularly 4,5 & 6 from the list.

______________________________________________________________________________

https://hellomusictheory.com/learn/famous-deaf-musicians/

Ayumi Hamasaki and Neil Young.

_____________________________________________________________________________

https://www.reddit.com/r/WeAreTheMusicMakers/comments/pchob/any_other_hardofhearingdeaf_producers_or_music/

"Brian Wilson is deaf in one ear and was a pretty brilliant arranger and producer. I'm a professional mixer/engineer/producer and have some hearing loss - mainly high frequency attenuation, and from my own observation, a dip in 3-4k as well... either that or I just like to make guitars really gnarly sounding and overdo it in those ranges."

15 hours ago, itu said:

Now I want you to show some real evidence. That "edge" sounds funny. And if you say producers are slightly deaf, you certainly know something I do not.

 

High quality studio monitors tend to have flat response compared to some PA stuff people have funnily labeled as FRFR.

 

 

https://www.sonarworks.com/blog/reviews/beyerdynamic-dt-880-pro-studio-headphone-review#pros

https://homedjstudio.com/beyerdynamic-dt-880-pro-review/

It's all there in the CONS.

21 hours ago, DTB said:

Can anyone give me any ideas on how to get rid of a harsh tweeter sound or recommend a warm sounding small monitor or hifi bookshelf speaker. The 8010s are tiny and bloody expensive. 
I had a nice set of absolute zero speakers years ago but they kind of died and the Genelecs replaced them. The tweeters on those were hidden behind a wad of black fabric. Maybe there lies the key?

I know the white Yamaha (NS10?) monitors always seem to have tissue paper over the tweeters. 

If you've got very sensitive ears, the first thing to do is to steer clear of "studio monitors". Likewise for studio monitor or "pro" headphones. Most of these have elevated treble to bring out the "edge" / detail in sounds for the benefit of music producers, (many of whom are slightly deaf from years of being blasted with high volume sounds").

You could re-align the speakers so that they're more off-axis from your listening position. If that doesn't work, you could try adding some sort of drape or curtaining into the room to raise the absorption.

A possible left-field solution:- Monitor Audio Radius 45. - the tweeter is at the back!! Put some absorbent behind them. Good luck.

49 minutes ago, DTB said:

So the only way to reduce the spl is to increase the distance between speaker and ear. Is that correct?

That's the theory but probably not practicable inside a small studio. You might manage 1dB, but that is barely detectable by the ear.

With the amplifier being the same and the speakers being in the same place, as well as you standing in the same place as before, the SPL will be the same. There will be very small changes to the overall frequency response because, by removing the partition you have made the longest diagonal of the studio bigger; this will allow longer wavelengths & hence lower frequencies, to propagate in the studio.

The SPL is wide band and not just fixed to low frequencies.

CORRECTIONS:
Following Phil Starr's comments and that from "Chienmortbb" (19hrs ago) I've had another look at the FANE pictures and it appears you have a Mark .1 version of the Sovereign 10-300. Current pictures show the driver as "10-300/2".

Subtle changes have been made since 2020 when I first downloded the speaker details. For the Mark 2, which I referrred to earlier, I used a specification/parameters file from about 3 weeks ago. Your Mk.1 version appears to measure better when the volume is reduced to about 63L. Consequently the system tuning is also different.

 For a comparison of the 2 models, see the frequency response graph below. Your Mk.1 is the light green line and the current Mk.2 is in light blue.

My inclination would be first of all to take the "Frontline" design and turn it sideways to the vertical and then if practicable, to slightly reduce the width. Leave room for the two 100mm ports (consider external diameter and flange).

Internally, I would brace the front baffle between the 2 drive units and remember to allow a 10cm gap between the end of the port and the rear panel.

The volume Stevie quoted is net of internal features, so allow about 1.4L per drive unit and the volume of the 2 ports, roughly 600cc, plus the volume of all the bracing. So 3.4L + bracing to be added to 70 litres.

Additional bracing to your choice.

Just searching on "reflex ports" and this came up as the second reference -

https://wilmslowaudio.co.uk/reflex-ports/100mm-flanged-straight-port

I agree with Stevie. The speakers look fine. The Fane 50 Years sticker indicates the speakers were produced around 2018.

I ran them through winISD speaker modelling software and the only difference I found from Stevies' "back of the envelope" figures is for two 4" ports with a length of 13.3cms. This gives a system tuning of 57Hz.

If you've still got the Ashdown cab, measure the internal dimensions to find the volume and let us know what you find. To build from new, make a 2 x10 box to the above internal volume and vertically align the speakers, one above the other. 

Hello Roger,

Given that you're only going to use the speaker in the local village hall and only for playing smooth ballads, you're not going to need much low bass output. The extended bass frequency responses that you quote, such as 10" 65Hz and 12" 45Hz will in practice be barely audible.What you actually hear is the 1st harmonic @ 130 and 90 Hz. The produced fundamentals are perhaps 12dB or more down from the average sound level.

I agree with several earlier contributors that a 2x10 is probably the way to go, but the choice is limited. The Warwick Gnome 2x10 looks good and is the right shape for manouvreability and sound dispersion but at 36lbs it seems quite a bit to lug about. The only other similarly shaped bass cab I can find is the Ampeg SVT210AV. It's main bonus is the reduced weight @ 26lbs and a retail price of £329.

https://ampeg.com/data/6/0a020a40928b60e325cf91092/application/pdf/Quick Start Guide - English .pdf

https://ampeg.com/data/6/0a020a3f4c425f986339a3452/application/pdf/Owner’s Manual - English .pdf

See if you can find a dealer and try one for size, so to speak.