Frank Blank

See, here is where I show my utter ignorance. I don't know what a tonewood is! These are the things I'm trying to learn, your comment is a perfect example of a possible reason why vintage instrument may be superior to a modern one.

I agree with the table analogy but both tables would do a 100% excellent job of doing what they are supposed to do, which is support your dinner on a flat surface while you eat it. What is it that's in an original 66 Fender Jazz that would not be in a modern replica built by a luthier? They would do the same thing, produce a sound. Would that sound be 'better' because one has heritage and the other does not. I wholly agree with you btw that we hold heritage dear but does that improve the sound of the bass? I also wholly agree with you that I have asked a question that will spark much and varied discussion but will ultimately fail to provide a quantifiable answer, I would go farther than you though in perhaps suggesting that unquantifiable topics such as this perhaps are the human condition.

Excellent, so what is it about the feel of the neck that you like so much, is it the wear? I ask because I can't imagine any other aspect being something that can't be replicated in a new build? Please don't see that as a dismissal of your opinion, rather of a wanting to know what it is you feel cannot be replicated?

Desirability due to being rare is something I understand yet it wouldn't make an item more desirable for me personally and yet I must be susceptible in this aspect in some way, when I visit my luthier his bass is out sometimes and it's a Fender Squier Jazz and yet I look at it with my gob open sometimes almost with a sort of desire because it's his and I know it will sound great otherwise he'd have no truck with it, whether I could quantify that sound, or even know if it did or didn't really sound any different is another matter. I am primarily driven by aesthetics so if a bass doesn't look 'right' to me, shape, colour, whatever then I dismiss it and I just wonder if I am doing the same with vintage instruments mainly because of my ignorance about them?

You've hit on another hugely important variable there which, of course, as you mentioned, is impossible to quantify. I look at basses that make me shudder because of their colour and I know if I owned one I'd never play it, nor do I believe I would play it as well simply because it's appearance irked me. I think as far as vintage instruments go I'm simply not knowledgeable enough about the materials or construction techniques to discern between the subtler differences such things make but then even if I was privy to such knowledge would that make the instrument more appealing to me or, more importantly, would I actually (and by actually I mean quantifiably) prefer it's tone and playability?

Now we are getting somewhere. The quality of materials. Now as much as I agree about the Victorian table vs the IKEA one is this true with basses, are vintage made of superior materials? I like some old things as I like some modern but I have still never found a bass that sounded of felt any better than my first Fender Modern Player once it was correctly set up. I almost feel like I’m missing out on the goings on in an exclusive club because I do not have an older, more expensive instrument, what I’m trying to ascertain is would I join that club simply because I wanted in with an exclusive club or would I wander in only to be confronted by a group of people operating under an obvious fallacy?

Superb comment, I agree with 1 and 2, certainly 1 applies to me but 2 is the crux of the matter, are those older instruments actually ‘better’ than modern ones in any quantifiable way. Do we just spend money along this ‘vintage is better’ path until we luck out on an older instrument that we actually love or happen across a modern one and see the light? Again I’m not dissing anyone for seeking or owning a vintage instrument, I’m just trying to quantify what makes such an instrument superior that is outside of personal taste, and how, if at all, we can approach such instruments and objectively assess them without the baggage of our bass players subjective knowledge of such instruments.

I agree but this is the essence of my question, what, if anything, are the quantifiable aspects of the Victorian table that make it superior or inferior to the IKEA table? Or is it all subjective taste. I’m now realising this is one of the central themes of Robert M. Pirsig’s superb novel Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Enquiry Into Morals... *runs to bookshelf*

Very wise words. In the end we are, of course, pleasing ourselves and if that is at a cost so be it. I play acoustic bass mostly so I am fully satisfied with the modern basses I have acquired but I still yearn for a Fender Jazz that actually slays me.

I agree with you to an extent, as in a Fender of a certain year either is or isn’t the genuine article but I think a lot of people use that as an umbrella term to cover vintage instruments generally thus excluding modern instruments when perhaps some genuinely authentic older instruments may be only as good or sometimes not as good as a modern one but the modern ones are disregarded simply because they aren’t ‘authentic’ in the generalised sense I’ve talked about. I agree, it’s been a delight to hear constructive and interesting discussion.

This is what I’m after, what are the ‘differences’ of which you speak?

This is very true. I do mourn the age of hat wearing but embrace world that includes advanced medicine.

This is harsh but I wonder if it is a motivator behind some purchases and I can’t say I’m exempt. I have the latest iPhone and if I seriously analyse it there is absolutely no reason I can think of to have it really, my old iPhone does exactly the same. Although I am looking into the subject as far as basses goes I fear I am an example of your postulation in phone acquisition, I still can’t explain why I do so though.

That’s very kind of you although I feel there must be something in it, I can’t imagine everyone who plays and prefers a vintage instrument is being hoodwinked. The more I think about it and the more I read these replies the more I realise it is foolish to seek a quantifiable answer to such a subjective query.

This is a very good point but an experience I have never had. I think perhaps my experience with vintage instruments is just limited and I’ve never found an older instrument that played or felt as good as a cheaper modern version.

That notional golden age of the English is a subject I’m very interested in. It’s a topic explored deeply in Jeremy Paxman’s excellent book The English.

I suspect any, if not all, the replies will carry certain words and phrases you have so eloquently included, ‘beautiful instruments’, ‘authenticity’, which are, let’s face it, wholly subjective terms. This whole topic is subjective I suppose but they make the best discussions. I’d love to try your bass.

At the risk of sounding like a utter fool, can someone explain to me why people like older instruments, vintage basses and the like? I’ll tell you for why. Years and years ago I was sitting in on a Killing Joke rehearsal, I’d just been to a West End music shop with a friend of mine and he’d purchased a cheap Washburn semi-acoustic. Geordie (KJ’s guitarist) asked to look at the guitar and plugged it into his rig “It won’t sound any different to mine” he said, laughing and gesturing with his head towards his beautiful 1952 Gibson ES-295. And guess what? It didn’t sound any different, not at all. So what’s the point of vintage instruments other than a display of what you can afford? I’m not knocking anyone who owns such instruments, I’m just trying to understand it, not least in case I’m missing out somehow! Surely modern instruments benefit from being designed and built using modern methods and technology? I have played vintage basses and very expensive modern hand built basses and none of them have sounded or played any better than any of my sub £1000 (and in a couple of cases sub £500) basses. I have talked with the luthier who sets up my guitars and basses about that and he speculated that most instruments simply aren’t set up correctly and that makes so much difference to the playability and tone (I have to agree here, I think I realised the first time he set up one of my basses that I had simply never played a correctly set up bass before). So, in summary, how or why are vintage instruments any better than modern, current models? I have never found this to be the case, is it just a myth or a marketing ploy, is it just peacock strutting with the most expensive or rare items? Or is there something I’m missing or just don’t know or understand, is there an old Jazz bass out there that I’d play and have the vintage revelation? I am mindful here of the story about the chap who only discovered his second-hand $35 violin was, in fact, a Stradivarius after it was run over by a bus, only then did he realise it was worth a million dollars, nothing in the playability or the tone led him to think it was anything special before he saw the name.

Getting it home is worse, I can’t put it down.

The Taylor is ridiculously addictive and coincidentally perfect for the music I play. Wingbass you say..?

That is so green! I like the look of that Jackson, I’m going to try one out! Thanks for this.

Oh lord, the SWB-1 Pro... Man that bass looks right up my rue!

Yes, I’m liking the Mustangs, thanks for this.

So, having gotten used to my Taylor GS Mini-e bass, in fact I am unable to put it down as it is more addictive than crack, I have come to realise that the vast majority of my bass playing woes over several years stem from my small hands vs. full scale bass necks. So I’ve decided to sell up all my full sized basses (Godin A4 and my new Aerodyne that’s barely a month old) and stick exclusively to short scale. I’ve been looking at a Gretsch G2220 but as I am a novice in the world of short scale basses I thought I better see if anyone has any recommendations or ideas. I have the Taylor and I’ll be getting a second as a back up but I want a short scale electric bass and as it will be my only EB I’d like as good quality as I can get... Whaddya think?

Thanks Dan Dare