Dan Dare

4 hours ago, EssexBuccaneer said:

No I’m not going to pay for a decision the band made prior to me joining. 

Then you cannot expect to share in the benefits of that decision.

1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

All of this one of several reasons why we play for free, as this removes any of the hassles, pitfalls and anguish from these pecuniary matters. It's just for fun, for us, and not a job; we don't need (nor would we want...) the income. Life can be simple. 

I'm in a similar position. I've made my money, am comfortably retired and do not need to earn from playing (or anything I do, for that matter). I have all the toys I've ever wanted and, crucially, own my home. I suspect you are in the same position. Relatively few are in our fortunate position. The hippy idyll is not a realistic possibility for most. Life can only be simple if you can afford to make it so, which you and I can.

3 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

“Guitarist wanted. Must have pro gear, the right attitude and £600 to pay for the PA.”

 

Not sure it’ll be a huge success!

Let's flip it on its head - "Guitar player seeks band. I will not contribute towards any jointly used equipment or expenses, but I expect to enjoy the benefits of the money the rest of you have spent and be treated as a full partner and receive an equal share of anything the band makes".

Not sure that'll be a huge success, either. Is that what is meant by "the right attitude"?

£600 is peanuts. For a 5 piece band, that equates to a PA that cost £3k, which is a little (but not much) above entry level.

4 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

There is next to no band I would join on that basis ever, unless I guess they were a name group with a recording deal and the job had a guaranteed minimum payback. Happy to pay a share going forward of my pay for the use of the PA, but I would hope that if that situation happened it would be clear before the auditioning as I wouldn't want to waste my time. 

There is no guaranteed minimum payback in life and especially not in business. You invest in equipment, acquire the right knowledge and skills, etc, work hard and hope you will recoup. If you want a guaranteed minimum payback, you need a job that pays a fixed wage. Would you be happy to join a band on a fixed wage, regardless of how much money the band made? Or would you want to be an equal partner when it came to dividing the spoils? If the latter, you need to make a similar investment as your colleagues. Otherwise, you are expecting a free (or at least subsidised) ride from them.

49 minutes ago, EssexBuccaneer said:

If I’m joining a band, I’ll accept my share of any expenses from that day onwards. I’ll chip in bits myself without expecting repayment (have just knocked up some t-shirts for us, I don’t expect nor ask for repayment) - but if a band asked me to pay up front for my share of the PA, I’m out. 

So if a band had recently spent £10k on a quality PA (less than mine cost, incidentally) and you were invited to join a month later, you'd expect to benefit from it for nowt?

Trivia question. Who played bass on Beat It?

1 minute ago, tauzero said:

 

Have you not encountered TimR before? 😁

Oh yes. See my previous comment about his loving a barney on here. I'm just amusing myself. I don't really care what he thinks or does.

14 hours ago, TimR said:

Precisely because if this situation occurs the remaining members are left having to find a brand new bit of kit as well as a new band member. 

 

Great for the person jumping ship. Not great for those left behind. 

And? The gear was mine. I was free to do as I wished with it. "Brand new"? They could have (and did) bought something used. Had they bought mine, that too would have been used. Actually, I didn't "jump ship". We agreed mutually that I should go - musical differences and all that... Don't you think you're clutching at straws?

8 hours ago, BigRedX said:

The cheapest way to get good quality cables to make them yourself using Van Damme cable and Neutrik plugs.

This. There are a number of alternative good quality cables in addition to VD and you can even use Switchcraft connectors if you're feeling flush. Generally, the words "durable" and budget" don't exist in the same universe. Given that the difference between a high quality cable and a mediocre one is around a fiver, it isn't worth saving when you take the increased lifespan of the decent one into account.

1 hour ago, nilebodgers said:

I used to be an audio professional until I retired and it would drive me nuts if someone else was bodging it.

That's why I decided to get my own PA in the first place. That and the fact that owning a quality PA makes people far more likely to want you in their band.

3 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

it can and does happen that there's a willing dad to do the heavy lifting.

Agreed. Were my daughter ever to have started a band, I would have been in a position to do it for her, but it's relatively rare and not something one can rely on being the case.

2 hours ago, TimR said:

That's handy because the person leaving will have exactly the missing part you need. So no need to go messing around looking and waiting. Of course you just have to negotiate a price... 😆

Which is exactly what I suggest, so why are we arguing (I know you are partial to a barney on here)? 

In most cases, the person leaving will probably be happy to sell their piece of gear to the band. If there is no shared ownership, it makes for a clearer transaction - no need to get the whole rig valued, haggle about what would be a fair price, etc, etc. Make him/her an offer. If he/she accepts, fine. If not, get a new mixer or whatever.

In my case, I didn't want to sell the gear I owned when I left the band I mention above, as I used it as a starting point to put together my first PA (many years ago now). Instead of having part of the used price of an entire PA (which wouldn't have been a lot), I had a perfectly serviceable Soundcraft mixer and fx rack that I could put to good use.

"Who owns all the special cables? That's really going to screw things up when your drummer disappears in a bad mood and takes his cables with him..."

The replacement drummer will need to provide his/her own.

4 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Wow. Talk about twisting words! We're not relying on the bank of mum and dad. He's a soundman, who just happens to be the father of one of the guitarists (the latter of which happens to be a Director at an Accountancy).We're not a bunch of kids. We're adults ranging from 40 to 60 years old and all financially independent. This is why I said "we're lucky enough to be in the position...". I realise it's not universally applicable.

 

If he did turn up with cheap, unreliable gear that's not up to the task, he wouldn't be our soundman anymore!

 

 

Not twisting your words at all. Yours is an unusual (and fortunate) situation, which you acknowledge tbf to you. However, very few are likely to be in your circumstances - a member of the band having a father who owns a decent PA and who is prepared to turn out for £50. 

Were that not the case, you and the band would have to put your hands in your pockets - either to hire or buy a PA - so the Bank of Dad (not mum and dad) is lending a helping hand, whether you acknowledge it or not.

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

If one member leaves and takes one of the speakers... or the mixer...

 

The PA will no longer work. 

Really? Replace the missing part with another of the same type and I rather think it will.

2 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

For example, we're lucky enough to have a soundman who owns the PA - the father of one of the guitarists. What he buys and how much he spends is up to him, same as how much I spend on a bass or amp. As such he gets an equal cut of gig money.

Handy if you can rely on the Bank of Dad (yours or someone else's) to insulate you from financial reality, but not universally applicable. As for "What he buys and how much he spends" being "up to him", I doubt you would be happy if he decided to turn up with gear he paid £150 for in Cash Converters...

The PA is not equivalent to your bass amp. Only you use that, but everyone relies on the PA.

2 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

Tim’s got this bang on. Splitting it into 5 makes no sense. And paying to join a band? Absolutely insane.
 

If the band is successful enough to generate a substantial income, you can set it up as a business. We did this when I was in a signed band. We actually took out a loan to pay for assets and recording and paid back from profits. There was no requirement for a new member to pay us. 

 

Also, you have to consider what happens if you treat it as a business. Do you all contribute equally?

 

The person driving the van, booking the gigs, storing the PA and managing the social media can all legitimately state they’re doing more. Do they earn more?

 

Socialism may not work in the real world, but the principles apply here. 

 

 

A PA is not a discreet whole. It's a collection of components - mixer, FOH, monitors, etc. Splitting it isn't akin to buying something like a vehicle jointly, where it would be impractical for one to own the engine, one the bodywork, etc because it operates as a whole and cannot easily be divided. I have just upgraded my mixer. It still works with the rest on my gear.

As far as storage, transport etc of the PA is concerned, if individuals own parts of it, they are responsible for that with the parts they own. It also solves the issue of one person using the PA for their own benefit, because nobody has the complete rig (they are free to negotiate with others to borrow/hire the rest of it if they wish).

If a PA is a small, main vocal only rig, it seems reasonable to expect the singer to provide and maintain it.

In a situation where someone joins an established band with jointly owned assets - PA, lights, etc - it may not be appropriate for them to be charged a "joining fee". However, I would consider it reasonable, were I in that situation, to be asked to contribute over time out of my gig fees in order to put me on a par with those who have done similarly, with the amount to be negotiated. This is especially the case if the band has bought out a previous member's share of jointly owned assets.

These days, I own a PA and charge a fee for its use to bands I play with. They are free not to use it and hire if they choose, but in practice, I'm a lot cheaper than doing that, so the situation never arises. I have to arrive early, set up, mix and then tear down and take it home afterwards, I do more work and have invested a significant amount in my system, so I should see a return on that. If it's a fun gig with friends, I don't charge, of course, but I do appreciate their buying me a pint (which won't break them - I'll be driving, so two is the absolute limit).

Socialism is great for those who put in less than others and not so good for those who put in more...

4 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

It’s going to be impossible to split a PA into shares and unreasonable to expect someone to pay to join a band. I’d consider what we did as an option. Buying individual bits sort of makes sense, but the PA’s value is as a whole system.

 

If a band member demanded payment from me I’d be quite upset.

I appreciate your points. However, it isn't impossible to split a PA into (roughly, but obviously not exact) equal shares. I've done it before, or rather a band I was in did. We did it in the way I described above. Obviously, you don't all go and buy a disparate/ill-matched pile of equipment and hope it works. You agree on the system you want and then purchase it between you, dividing the cost as equitably as is possible commensurate with owning parts of it individually.

That's what we did. Some (I and one other) spent a little more than others, but it didn't bother me (or him), because I owned something of higher value which was mine to do as I wished with if/when I left, as did he.

Why would you be upset if a band member "demanded payment" from you and why is it unreasonable to expect someone to pay to join a band.? You did, in effect, demand payment from the other members of the band when you fronted the cost of buying the PA you describe and they repaid you. To be clear, I think that was entirely reasonable of you and would have done the same in your position.

Surely it depends on the circumstances. In the case of bands that work occasionally and don't earn a great deal, they are unlikely to be spending .serious money on PA, lights, etc. £20 a head each for a few months is no great loss. However, in a situation where you are offered a place in a successful working outfit which has significant jointly-owned assets, is it right to expect to benefit from something the others have paid for without making a contribution? Perhaps so if you are happy to be paid a wage, but if you want an equal share in the profits of the venture, it's right that you should make the same investment as the others have.

If you join a company as an employee, you will earn a wage/salary, but if you wish to be a full partner and earn the same as the other partners/business owners, shouldn't you be prepared to invest in the venture to the same extent as them?

This is a tricky issue. Agreeing used values, depreciation and how much someone leaving will get back, etc is a minefield. I'd suggest it's better for members to buy different parts of the PA as individuals. You can normally divide things roughly equally (not exactly, but close enough). One owns the mixer, two others the FOH (a side each), another the monitors and so on. Anyone leaving takes their own part(s) with them to sell or re-use as they choose. Anyone joining then has to replace the item(s) the leaver took with them and owns the replacement(s). The band/joiner is free to offer to buy it from them if a price that suits everyone can be agreed.

Repairs due to fair wear and tear would normally be equally split, but that depends on circumstances. If someone drops the mixing desk down their stairs at home or their kids jump on it and break it, it isn't reasonable to expect the others to pay, for example. As I said, tricky.

As you say you aren't keen on the material, I'd say definitely no. From their point of view, if you join and leave after a few months, they'll have to start from scratch, so it won't be doing them any favours.

As far as "Any band is better than no band" goes, if you were parched and in the desert and someone offered you a glass of muddy water, you'd probably drink it...

Is this a ploy to get us to listen to the track/generate clicks? 

Fusion gig bag and their DJ backpack for the head.

Opposing thumbs would be a good start.

1 hour ago, snorkie635 said:

With prawn crackers?

 Sorry. My bad. Should have been 明日は雨が降るかしら。

とは 意味・読み方・使い方

It's not raining in Tokyo

They need to update their translation engine, too. Does an "ender" bass mean it's fatal to play it? Still, good to see it can be used in standard tuning without clogging...