Mikey R

I clearly didn't get the memo. I nearly have as many amps as I do guitars. Thats fair enough. I've been away for a while, and have missed out on shifts in the BC culture during that time, and what has and hasn't been flogged to death. When I used to read the Luthiers Corner on Talk Bass, there were sigh inducing reruns of tonewood discussions almost weekly, with as much misinformation circulating as there are on the merits of values vs transistors. The very reason I came here to guage the general feeling of valve kit, is that the BC bunch do sniff the corks, they are the kind of players who enjoy experimenting with top of the range kit, and they are a good representation of the kinds of players a small boutique company would target. The premium kit is subject to fashion, and fashion changes over time. I just wanted to check that valves and hybrids haven't gone out of fashion, because that would be a real shame. They're also a really nice bunch who are happy to share their experiences, of which we have amongst us a huge stockpile.

Hi Luke. I don't think anything you said was wrong, but I do believe that the power output of class D amps is calculated differently, and therefore is inflated relative to how valve amps are rated. I do believe valve amps are rated at continous sine wave output, as that is how the output stages of radios were tested back in the 50s. The limit for any amp is how much juice the power supply can, erm, supply. In class AB, this sets the maximum voltage swing, but also how that voltage sags as current is drawn. If the voltage doesn't sag, then the power output can be maintained infedinitely. The rating system changed sometime in the 70s or 80s, and things like peak power output were invented to make hi-fi amps seem louder on paper. Some of this would have leaked into instrument amp specs, as transistor output stages became popular. I'm going to have to google "peak programme" and remind myself of all of this. Then class D came along, and they are complicated beasts. OEMs buy their output boards wholesale, meaning that they have very little control over what is in their amps. If they use a 300 watt board originally designed for a car stereo, then they'll rate their amp at 300 watts. It may be able to handle very short bursts of 300 watts during the loud sections of classical music, but it couldn't keep that up if the signal was all bass guitar. So, I don't think we are comparing like for like, even if we remove the effects of how valves compress as they are driven into clipping. I'd also point out that modern valves don't kick out as much juice as NOS valves do. A 6550 pair, with 600 volts on the anode and 300 volts on the screen, dring a 5k anode to anode load, used to output 100 watts. If you use modern valves, you'll get around 70 watts, you need to increase the screen voltage to 400 volts to get the full 100 watt output, and that would be very hard on the valves. Even so, modern amp builders still rate their amps as if they had NOS valves, even though they don't ship with them. Your 100 watt amp is actually kicking out 70 watts, and it's still louder than a 300 watt class D.

Hi xgsjx, would you find any amp more useful with a DI? What is your opinion on effects loops, yes or no? If yes, what do you use them for? Cheers! You can own something nice, and only bring it out for special occasions. Many of us here have several basses, and play them all, even though we might only use the one for live work.

Hi Muzz, I agree it's subjective, which is why I'm asking for people's opinions. I want to know if there are people out there who do like valve and hybrid kit. I'm sorry you're not finding this conversation it useful, I can assure you that I am. Hopefully, I'll be able to explain why in a few weeks.

You're touching on psychoacoustic effects there. A real experiment would have to be very complicated. But as a starter for 10, you could connect a 4 ohm dummy load across the output, and connect a a 440hz square wave from a function generator to the input. That way, clipping will have minimal effect - the signal is already clipped. Increase the input until the voltage across the output doesn't increase any further. The voltage across the dummy load squared divided by 4 would then tell you how much power the amp is putting out at 440hz. Ideally, you'd repeast at 220, 110 and 55hz to get a fuller picture. This will give you continuous power output. To get peak power output, you would have to drive the input with pulses of waveform. It's not perfect, but it would give you an idea of how the two amps fare objectively. I wouldn't be surprised if the class AB amp does better in continuous output, by quite a margin. Thanks Artisan! Thats exactly the feedback I wanted to hear. I wanted to know that there are at least some people out there who "get" the value amp thing. OK, now I'm showing my bias, I'm also a valve guy.

A 30 watt amp is feaking loud when cranked in your front room. 200 watts would show up on the Richter scale. EBS used to make a 90 watt all valve amp, that's likely the right number of watts to give enough loudness, whilst being on the edge of soft clipping. I wonder why they took it out of production? Are people not interested in valve kit any more? Do people not like to clean and jerk their heads onto their speaker stacks? EDIT: I just checked, Ashdown do still make their CTM-100, but they've given up on the bigger valve amps. The 300 and "big block" 427 are long gone. Snarf.

Hey Mert. With a 200 watt power section, you might never have the chance to push it till it to compression. So, since both amps were in their linear range, that would explain why they sounded similar. Pushing a 200 watt amp to clipping is face meltingly loud.

Hey everyone. I'd like to steer the conversation a little, if I may. The excellent point has been brought up, that the technology and class of the amp isn't important, how it sounds is. I totally agree with this. We don't listen to technical specs, we listen to music. However, we can draw on our experience, we can say amps of that type tend to sound like this, and I like this sound, so I bought an amp of that type. We've also ascertained that class D amps are quite popular, provided you can get one big enough for the job. Class D watts seem to be less loud than class AB watts. I'd now like to discuss peoples experiences with valve amps, in particular if anyone has done an A / B comparrison of a transistor vs a valve amp. I'd like to get peoples ideas on the whole experience - not just the sound, but the whole feeling of playing through valves. How they respond and how the sound interacts with your playing. Is there truth to the idea that valve amps are more "interactive," is the mojo real or just in the mind of the player? Is the real thing better than simulated tubes, or are the sims just as good? Final question, for now at least - would people considder buying an amp with a nice tone for studio use, or as a bedroom blaster, and maybe have a bigger but less nice amp for live work? Kind of like having a nice classic bass that you don't let leave the house, for gigging you use the old beater bass? Us lot on here tend to like having nice things, even if they're impractical. Is a nice amp a thing that people want?

Cheers for the input Al! The poll is really there just to spark a bit of conversation. Your data point adds weight to my inference that class D amps are great, provided you get one big enough. I'm seeing recommendations from 500 watts up to around 900 watts for live use, whereas a couple hundred watts of class AB would previously have been fine. I'd love the opportunity to compare them using a dB meter, against a tranny class AB and a valve AB amp of differing power outputs.

Oh, and also, valve amps can also be really clean. We associate them with grit, but they aren't all gritty.

Well, we know that class AB valve amps are loud for their rated output, relative to the same rated transistor AB amp. I've no doubt, if you compare a 100 watt valve bass amp with an 800 or 900 watt class D amp, then the class D will keep up. And, if you can't tell the difference in a band situation, then theres no reason not to go with the class D. I'm purposely not giving my opinion here, as althought I don't mind guiding the discussion, I dont want to overly influence it. Blood in my mouth beats blood on the ground... ;o)

I do believe my old Trace had a switch to let you choose where the EQ went in the chain. But if you did want an amp that was so configurable that it could do everything for everybody, then it would be incredibly complicated and difficult to use, as well as expensive and potentially noisy. The Fender Cyber Twin died because of this. I keep contrasting bass amps with guitar amps here, since both bass and guitar valve amps share a common ancestor, a lot of the technology is the same. Of the common classic bass amps, only the SVT really diverges from the topology used in guitar amps. I don't remember if the original SVT allowed you to plug stuff in between the preamp chassis and the power amp chassis, though I bet plenty of people would have made this mod if they'd have needed it.

They can still both be quite gritty amps, with a bit of snarl when you push them hard. There's nothing that says transistors can't add grit, they just do it slightly differently. Amen! Have you ever had the opportunity to compare your big old tranny power amp to a valve power amp? At a bass bash, maybe? Class AB transistor amps are a different beast again to class D amp, I've not yet played a class D that I liked.

Hi Bill, I've been taking a look at a few schematics. The Ashdown LB30, for example, has the effects loop first thing, before the EQ stack. Granted, it's a simple amp with a passive EQ, so won't be adding much noise. However, it seems a few other amps have the loop first thing, before a more complex active EQ that will add a bit more noise. So, a follow up thing to think about, how much noise will likely be added by a single preamp stage converting instrument level to line level? We're only talking about a gain of around 24dB. Also, how much noise will be on a normal bass guitar signal? Sure, maybe a bit if you're running overdrive and you've been through a few other pedals too, and aren't using an isolated PSU or batteries for your pedals - if you're doing this, then your overdrive box is picking up and amplifying the noise on the ground line from all of the other boxes, particularly bad if any of them are digital. In which case, the first solution is to switch out your pedal boards PSU for one with independantly isolated outputs for each pedal, and only then if that doesn't fix it, maybe consider a noise gate / expander. (I've been putting a lot of thought into grounding recently - you can probably tell!) There is definitely a difference between how bass players use their loop, than how guitar players do. Until I had asked this question, I didn't really appreciate that. Thanks guys!

Hey Pete! I forget that a lot of bass players use studio kit in their rigs. Since I've been away, are rack mounted rigs making more of a come back? I'll admit I haven't been paying attention over the last couple of years.

Cool, so for you it's a level and impedence thing. Gotcha!

Hey everyone! First day back, and I'm already onto my second topic! All will become clear in the coming weeks... So my second question is: all solid state, hybrids, reverse hybrids, and all valve amps, what do people think? If you like a bit of valve in your tone, does the adding transistors matter to you? Is there a major and tangable difference to an amplifier with a valve power stage? And finally, do people have preference for amps with differnt tube compliments, either in the pre or power stage?

Hi Bill, Do you notice a big difference if you put it before the input to the amp, or in the effects loop? Also, obvious question, what amp are you using?

Hey everyone, I've been away for a while - far too long! I had some health issues so had to take a break from the community. Anyway, I'm back, and I have a question: how many people find the effects loops on their amps useful, and what do they use them for? In guitar world, the preamp gain stage comes before the loop, allowing for time based effects like reverb and phase to be added after overdrive. Guitarists often put their fuzz and distortion pedals on the input of the amp, to really push the preamp tube overdrive, and time based effects in the loop. But bass amps rarely have high gain preamps. I'm trying to figure out if effects loops are really useful or desirable on an amp - specifically, a valve amp, where they are quite fiddly. Cheers!

I'll put myself down as a tentative: [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#282828]1. Hamster -[/color] [color=#282828]2. Silverfoxnik - BC Rich Eagle, Schecter Diamond P5, Levinson Blade B15, Yamaha BB300, amp & cab tbc[/color] [color=#282828]3. Billy Apple - Spector, Jule Monique, Demeter Minnie, EAD[/color] [color=#282828]4. Happy Jack - The Entire Population Of China[/color] [color=#282828]5. Bluejay - something lefty, provided I don't have another senior moment and leave it/them at home[/color] [color=#282828]6. Bassman Steve - Boogie and Barefaced stuff and a Precision or two[/color] [color=#282828]7. obbm - new micro-stack[/color] [color=#282828]8. Kiwi (?) - GB Shuttle 6.0 and two fEARful F112 cabs, Spector 5, Status 5, Alembic, Pedulla...and maybe the Steinberger[/color] [color=#282828]9. Bottle - 1x12 Cab and 1x10 Combo, FX boards and rack amp, Ibanez bass.[/color] [color=#282828]10. TheGreek - something a little bit different[/color] [color=#282828]11. Mykesbass - Shuker 5 string fretless (old style P Bass), Carvin BX500 Head, Fender Rumble V3 112 cab.[/color] [color=#282828]12. Shockwave - Musicman Stingray 4, 3EQ, Could possibly bring my big pedalboard, but no amp to play through![/color] [color=#282828]13. Lozz196 (?)[/color] [color=#282828]14. Merton - ACG Finn, Status Retroactive, possibly some Ashdown valve and Barefaced Gen 3 gear[/color] [color=#282828]15. Oldman - a Schroeder Cab or Two and the Tecamp BonaFide[/color] [color=#282828]16. Russ - Sei singlecut, Spector, maybe my Ibanez sixer, and my Barefaced Big Twin II and Ampeg SVT-7. Maybe a few pedals too.[/color] [color=#282828]17. Dropzone - interested in knowing about amps[/color] [color=#282828]18. BobVbass (?) - will probably drag RhandyThodes as well if he's about and bring Lakland Duck Dunn, Paisley P bass, Framus Double bass, Markbass and Barefaced Super 12T[/color] [color=#282828]19. Randythoades (?) - MIJ Aria basses, slimline upright, Ashdown cabs and GK head. Plus any acoustic /electric guitar related items too if needed[/color] [color=#282828]20. Rumblefish - Mesa Boogie Pulse 600,Berg CN 212,Reverend Rumblefish bass[/color] [color=#282828]21. hen_barn - Status kingbass, Status 5 string series 1, Tecamp puma 500, Vanderklays 2x10 1x12[/color] [color=#282828]22. JapanAxe - [/color][color=#282828]'73 Precision, Sandberg California VM4, G&L L1505, Fender Pawn Shop Mustang, Demeter VTBP-M-800D, Genz Benz Streamliner 900, Barefaced Compact & Midget[/color] [color=#282828]23. Sibob (?) - Fodera MGS, either a '71 Precision, Fender Japan/USA Precision Build or Fender Japan Medium Scale Jazz, LM2, Barefaced, Pedulz[/color][/font] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#282828]24. Hector (?) - DeGier Bebop 5 and Limelight 63P. Could also bring my Tone Hammer pre[/color][/font] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#282828]25. such - Fender Marcus and a couple of pedals, Cali76, Aguilar Tone Hammer, Joyo American[/color][/font] [font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][color=#282828]26. Barneyg42 - Status 5 string S2 Classic (green LEDs), Status Series 1 5 string; TC BH500 into BC210 and 212[/color][/font] 27. Bassace - Bryant double bass, Clarus head and Crazy8 cab 28. NickD - Lakland Skyline 55-01, Thomann deko acoustic fretless 5 and maybe Bass Collection SB315 and Trace combo 29: Mikey R (?) - Blue Shuker course bass.

[quote name='Raggy' timestamp='1420801000' post='2653502'] Splendid stuff. My Dubster and OBT certainly makes my pants flap!!! [/quote] You certainly can't beat a flappy pant. I miss my Compact!

I bought Andrews TE Quatra Valve as a bit of a project. We considered a few different schemes to get it to me as Im up the other end of the country, in the end we decided to courier it up. The amp was packaged up really nicely, the power tubes were wrapped up in bubble wrap to survive the journey. All in, a totally top bloke and I would without a doubt buy from him again.

Thats one sweet looking homebrew! What voltage do you run the plates of the 6V6s at?

Since you like more prominent mids, you could swap the eq out for a tweed deluxe one knob, and use the second knob for the master?

Hey, did you manage to resolve your problem? Did you go master volume, or attenuator?