Gottastopbuyinggear

Oh good grief...

[quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1504356070' post='3364347']

Really it's a no brainer.
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Damn that predictive text!

[quote name='BassBunny' timestamp='1504356070' post='3364347']

Really it's a no brainer.
[/quote]

Damn that predictive text!

We've bought PLI through AMPband at a cost of about £80 for the year. My reasoning is that if a drunken punter knocks over a PA speaker on themself or someone else then I don't want to risk being in a situation where someone's coming after me personally for compensation. It works out at a few quid each between the six of us so it seems like a no brainier to me.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1504136154' post='3362977']
I'm sure you'll get many years of great sound from them. If you don't blame the band

One school of thought is to use the same speakers as your PA for monitors, then if one goes down on the PA you can swap them out. It's worth a thought if you can afford it. Having said that I like dedicated wedges with the controls available on the front. I bought a couple of cheap Behringer 1320's to try out and currently (two years later) they are still going strong and are my 'go-to' monitors, really clear but lacking in bass which is not a problem for vocal monitors of course.
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Actually I've just posted on your other thread, Phil, about side fills. Apart from the cost issue I think we'd like something slightly smaller for monitoring for most of us, though the singer still needs a relatively substantial wedge box - he likes to stand on it... I'm not too concerned about having controls on the front as we can control the aux levels from tablet/phone, although for a quick on the fly adjustment it is easier to just bend down and grab a knob so to speak.

On the topic of the Behringer 1320, has it got plenty of power to compete with a pretty loud drummer? Our singer currently has one of the similar Thomann boxes - MA120 I think. It's okay, but only just - the clip light is on most of the time, and it only has his vocals and keys going through it. I think they're rated 120W at 4 ohms, so I take that to mean you have to run a slave with it to get the full 120W.

I don't suppose you have any experience of the smaller Behringer one do you - the F1220D? It's a lot smaller and lighter (and quite cheap), but I'm not sure whether the quoted 250W translates into a reasonable volume. Oddly enough if you search F1220D SPL a couple of the US retailers quote it as 128dB, but that sounds unlikely to me and I know that Behringer typically don't publish that sort of metric anyway.

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1504136632' post='3362981']
I had the chance to try side fills for the first time this w/e. A couple of Wharfedale Titan 12A serving backline and keys with traditional floor monitors for the frontmen. I have to say the sound was great with vocals and keys really in focus over some noisy bass. No feedback issues on a biggish despite the vocalists using cardioid mics, can't weed them off their SM58's
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Based on your original post I think we're in a similar position, playing cramped pub "stages" in the main, and we're currently looking into getting some new monitors. Our current floor monitors are lacking in power a bit, and the drummer in particular has a problem with hearing much of the rest of the band, so I'd already been wondering about a small monitor mounted at head height for him. How did you have your side fills mounted - can you get small footprint speaker stands for this?

By way of an update, we've gone for Yamaha DBR12's (based on reputation for reliability and the four year warranty) and a Soundcraft UI12 (based on having 8 mic preamps, should we need them, and ability to have up to four separate aux mixes).

Not used in anger yet, though we have used for rehearsal and I found it really easy to get a good mix. So far no problems with the built in WiFi on the UI12, though I have also got it linked to a small WiFi router via ethernet cable.

Still looking at new monitors - the Alto TS210 looks a likely candidate, although there are a lot of stories about the tweeters blowing on them.

[quote name='Dankology' timestamp='1503587276' post='3359434']
If your mixer has insert points on each channel (that aren't being used) you can wire a stereo jack to a mono one (or an XLR or phono or whatever you need) to "tap" the signal without breaking the signal chain. You can even do the same thing by inserting an instrument lead part way in but if anyone knocks it you could lose that instrument in the main mix... If you Google "insert point" + "direct out" I'm sure you'll find the (very simple) wiring diagram.

Even simpler if you're lucky enough to have proper direct outs on your mixer. Or something that delivers all the audio to a memory stick or laptop )

I've got a Tascam 16 track interface that was great for recording gigs - can't remember the exact model and am not at home to check but I think it has 8 phantom-equipped XLRs another 6 jack inputs plus a stereo digital input. We now use 3 x 8-channel splitters plus an Alesis HD24 - which works great apart from in places where they use a digital snake...

Depending on the circumstances we also occasionally use a 4-track Tascam recorder with the board signal going into two channels and a pair of stereo mics going into the other two - not really what you're asking about but can give very satisfying results.
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Sadly the mixer (UI12 - see above just posted) doesn't have insert points, so that's not an option, but thanks for the suggestion - I've just googled it so I've learned something new!

The mixer will record to USB, but as far as I can tell there's no control over that, it's simply whatever's on the main outs - which makes sense in some situations but not ours.

Dood, the XR18 would have been my first choice for mixer for the reasons you stated, but I couldn't really justify the cost - I think they're about £600 at the moment? We're a pub band, playing at most a couple of gigs a month (and only in the last 10 months or so) purely for the fun of it, so whilst we do get paid we're not exactly rolling in cash.

We've actually gone for the Soundcraft UI12 (eyes wide open, and fingers firmly crossed on this - I've read the stories about WiFi drop outs, so I'll be using an external router, and I'm not worried about noisy preamps - we're a pub band!). I did look at the smallest of the Behringer XR mixers but the Soundcraft won it on the fact that it's got more preamps and also the ability to have four separate aux mixes - I have a cunning plan to try and get myself and the drummer onto in-ears, but I think that's a way off yet.

As I said, this is more a potential personal project - I'd probably be happy to spend a couple of hundred on an audio interface, but if it gets beyond that (e.g. with mic splitters, etc.) then it's probably getting too expensive. It was more a question of understanding what the capabilities of some of these interfaces are with respect to routing ins to outs with no, or acceptable, latency. Also the Focusrite in particular, whilst being relatively old technology, seems to be a pretty good deal at £250 at the moment - I guess they're probably about to be (or already are) discontinued.

I'm in the process of acquiring a new PA for my pub band, and it's got me thinking about options for getting some better quality live recordings. We currently put keys and vocals only through the PA, so taking a stereo out from the mixer isn't any help, and as we only have PA tops we couldn't sensibly put the drums and bass through the PA in order to have everything in the mix for recording. I could use a couple of the aux outputs, and put everything into those auxes, but even then I think getting a decent stereo mix is going to be difficult.

I was looking around at low cost audio interfaces with at least 8 inputs / mic pre's, and there's things like the Tascam 16x08, a Behringer model I can't recall the name of, and the Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 in the £200 to £300 range.

The question I have is whether any of these, or similar devices, will allow me to do a multitrack recording and in parallel feed the vocals and keys inputs straight through to outputs (so I can take them into our mixer for the PA) with zero or low enough latency for the live sound. Does anyone have any experience of trying to do this?

The only other solution I can think of at the moment would be to get an 8 channel passive mic splitter, to feed the audio interface and PA mixer in parallel, but even a cheap one of those is the best part of £100.

At the moment this is more a personal "I fancy having a go at this" project rather than a band requirement, hence the budget limitation. We've talked about options for getting decent demo recordings together (just to support getting gigs) and the consensus seems to be that the safer option would be to spend a couple of hundred on getting that done in a studio. To be honest, while I think I could probably get a reasonable source recording, I appreciate (from a limited amount of home recording) that getting a decent mix is an entirely different matter, so I'm not willing to stick my neck out and say "buy the kit and I'll make us a demo".

Have you found it okay with an external router?

I have jumped in now and bought a UI12, which should get its first outing tomorrow, but it'll be feeding the power amp section of a powered mixer so we can drop back to the mixer section of that if needed - only keys and vocals going through and I have a note of the settings we used in the venue last time, so hopefully it would be an easy change.

I'm using an external router with it, connected via Ethernet cable, and it seemed pretty solid just sitting in the house yesterday for a few hours, but that's far from a scientific test.

I use a very similar setup to power a Polytune, VT Bass Deluxe and a TC Spectracomp. Lasts for ages, and I've had no noise issues at all. The only problem I have had is that the power pack switches itself off if it doesn't have a minimum of about 30 or 40mA being drawn, so I've added an LED and resistor to maintain that constant draw.

Thanks Mike, I've already got a splitter cable that will do for this, and I think I have a wifi router I can press into service. Other than wifi issues how have you found the UI16?

...and yes, the manual is quite a weighty tome isn't it!

I'm still in two minds about the mixer to be honest. It's hugely capable for the money, and the idea of things like automatic feedback suppression on each of the auxes, the ability to save settings for a venue, etc. are quite compelling. On the other hand, though, the immediacy of something with a bunch of physical controls that you can just grab if you need to is also quite appealing.

Thanks for the reply. I have to admit I'd assumed that the level on the headphone out would be higher than line level, but I appreciate that's over simplifying it and not taking into account the impedance of whatever it's driving. I think you're right about trying it just with an unbalanced cable to a monitor - it's probably only going to be a run of about fifteen or twenty feet, so it should be okay.

My band is thinking of buying a Soundcraft UI12, which has two balanced aux outputs, and a headphone socket which can be assigned in the mixer as a two further aux outs. I might want to use a DI box (or boxes) to convert these outputs to balanced line for sending to powered monitors or possibly a personal mixer for IEMs.

Would I be right in assuming that a passive DI box will be fine for this and there would be no gain (no pun intended) in going for an active box?

Anyone care to recommend a good budget, preferably dual, DI box? I'm looking at the likes of Behringer, Studiospares' own brand, or maybe the ART Dual Z Direct? It doesn't need to be hi-fi, but something reasonably robust and reliable would be good.

I was looking at DBR 12s. Up from £362 to a whopping £486 in many shops.

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1501075945' post='3342290']
Have a read through this thread i started last year.

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/293613-thomanns-the-box-pa-502-a-anyone-using-these-for-live-work/page__fromsearch__1"]http://basschat.co.u...__fromsearch__1[/url]

Im very, very happy with the outcome. i just wish i had got these a few years earlier.
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I've had a further look at the DB stuff, and I'm guessing the equivalent now is the Opera range, as the other ranges are quite a bit more pricey. Based on your thread I guess you went for 15's (?), which brings me on to:

[quote name='deepbass5' timestamp='1501237796' post='3343482']
We Use an RCF PA which is great gear but also have 3 x 10" Alto monitors which are great and have used them as a small PA at Jazz jams I quite rate their gear, but don't go less than 12" for your main speakers.
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Setting aside any potential differences in frequency response I've been going on the principle that max SPL is a reasonably good indicator of how loud stuff will be, and if a 10", 12" or 15" speaker are all within a dB or two of each other then, subjectively, they're probably all going to be able to go roughly as loud as each other?

Is there any reason to suppose that the sound quality of a 10" speaker will deteriorate more, or more quickly, than that of a 12" or 15" as the volume goes up? Bear in mind that we are only putting vocals and keys through the PA, the keys get a HPF applied, and if we ever wanted to put drums or bass through the PA then we'd go for subs or trade up to more serious stuff like the RCF 735's.

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1501226419' post='3343374']
Not sure if it helps but I have a friend who is moving abroad and selling a heap of studio and pa stuff. He's open to offers on any of it and it includes a mackie pa with subs and tops. He's a top musician and a nice chap so I don't doubt the gear will be in good nick. I can easily pm you his list of gear up you want to take a look.
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I'd be interested in a look at the list, and an idea of where he's located.

[quote name='Oopsdabassist' timestamp='1501178368' post='3343162']


No I sent a PM to Phil.c60 re his spare Yamaha PA, sorry for the confusion.
[/quote]

Yep, having read it properly now I can see that!

Thanks for all the replies. A few specific answers:

[quote name='Raymondo' timestamp='1501144497' post='3342756']
If you have been happy with the PA you now have why not buy it? Your band mate gets his/her money and you get to stay on familiar turf; or is it too expensive?
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The price that's been offered is, I think, more than it's really worth. Also, you could anchor a battleship with the powered mixer, and I'm keen to go for powered speakers for the added flexibility should anything go bang in the middle of a gig.

[quote name='Oopsdabassist' timestamp='1501154009' post='3342860']
PM sent
[/quote]

To me? Sorry, I haven't seen anything - unless you're also doubling as another Basschat member who I did get a PM from last night?!

[quote name='dave_bass5' timestamp='1501161034' post='3342954']
Did you look at my thread? The db's are made by a company who are owned by RCF so good quality.
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I did, and the DB stuff is on my list to look at, but the ones that were in your thread are I think out of production now. Also, from a very quick look the similar sized stuff doesn't seem to be much cheaper than the RCF stuff anyway? As I say, I've not really looked at them properly yet, but I will do.

For the moment I've emailed the rest of the band with a couple of "for instance we could..." scenarios, to see what they think about the overall price. In no way set in stone yet but one of the suggestions I made was the RCF 310s, a pair of Alto TX10s for monitors, and a UI12. We have a bit of a split between my usual "get quality and get it new with a warranty" approach and "surely we can get something relatively cheap second hand", although we may have learned our lesson on the latter with our current monitoring set up - £55 for powered mixer and a pair of 12" no name speakers from Gumtree!

Didn't see your comments on mixers, Phil, as our posts crossed.

I'd forgotten about Alto, but remember now that they seem to have been getting good reviews, so I'll definitely look into them. I hear the comments about RCF / Yamaha etc. being better, and I'm usually one to go for the best I can afford, but as we're not talking about refined vocal harmonies here (more enthusiastic amateur bouncing around while belting out Jumping Jack Flash) and technology moves on I have a strong feeling the current budget stuff will sound just as good as the ten or fifteen year old EV stuff we're currently using.

Any comments on mixers? I'm particularly keen on something with some automatic feedback suppression, and the ability to get a couple of different monitor mixes would be good, as we usually have two or three doing BVs, so they need a bit more of themselves than we'd want in the singer's monitor. I'm quite keen on the Soundcraft UI 12 at the moment, but just a little wary of having to navigate through lots of different menus to get to something which is right in front of you on an analogue mixer. Ease of setup is quite important, as all the technical stuff falls to me and one of the guitarists and I'm now doing lights as well. That's one of the reasons why something where you can save settings for each venue would be good.

We're a six piece pub band playing mainly 60s and 70s R&B and soul type stuff, currently putting vocals and keys only through a powered mixer and a couple of 12" speakers. The band member who owns the PA is likely to sell it to free up some cash, so we'll probably be looking for a replacement quite soon. We're essentially playing for fun - we're looking at a maximum of a couple of gigs a month, so that limits the requirement and the budget we can justify.

I'd be interested in people's opinions on the following:

I've been looking at 12" or maybe 10" stuff like the Mackie SRM 450/350, RCF 312a/310a, and maybe equivalent Yamaha stuff. Good condition second hand would be great, or we might stretch to new, but the budget is probably between £500 and £700. We're not looking to mic up drums any time in the future, so we're basically playing to the volume of the drummer. He's quite loud though. I have in my head that it's probably new 10's or second hand 12s even at the top end of the budget.

For our purposes will a decent pair of 10" speakers be likely to be up to the job? Does anyone have any views on any good "value" end of the spectrum kit - Behringer, for example?

I'm quite keen on the idea of a rack mount digital mixer, like one of the smaller Soundcraft or Behringer mixers, as I believe they'll let us save settings for specific venues, and give people (the keys player, basically) the ability to control their own monitor mix. Having the ability to stop wayward fingers (the keys player again, bless him...) knocking any controls that they shouldn't be near is also quite attractive. However none of us are particularly experienced with live sound, so I'm wondering whether a more traditional type mixer would be a better option to start with. Probably looking to spend a couple of hundred quid on this.

What do we think?

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1500660006' post='3339488']
The mode around this is called mixolydian (sometimes called blues scale)
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In danger of showing myself up here as I have very little theory knowledge, but i can't see how mixolydian mode can be called the blues scale - mixolydian is major scale with flattened 7th, blues is minor pentatonic with flat 5th? Genuine question - not trolling!

With regard to Jean Genie, I'm sticking to G on the way up, G# on the way down, and it's come as a huge disappointment to me to find out that almost everyone else has been playing it wrong for years. Okay, now I might be trolling 😉