wishface

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1343039789' post='1744024'] While good technique is essential in the over all development as a bassist, IMO it is not good to isolate it to the detriment of other things. What is the use of having impeccable technique, if your timing is bad, for example ? This guy (see link) seems to break every "rule" in the book as far as L/H technique is concerned. It has not had a negative effect on either his career or his playing. Ditto for Jack Bruce, who uses a similar type of L/H technique. When these two men started out, there was not such an emphasis on "good" technique. They were left to find their own, which they did. Be aware that good technique is to your advantage, but dont get too hung up on it. [/quote] I do understand this, and I don't want this thread to become sidetracked. There are plenty of people that play with l/h like that. While it's always nice to see Paul play his bass, i'm not really looking for a discussion on the validity of technique vs musicianship. I'm looking for advice on how to improve my technique, preferrably not at the expense of my arm!

I don't really want to get into a technique vs musicianship discussion, so I will just say this: I am aware that tehcnique isn't the end goal. But without it you get nowhere. Doesn't matter what the music is, if you can't play it or haven't learned how to play it so that you don't develop a poor technique (or in such a way that makes things difficult for yourself through bad fingerings or picking) you aren't learning anything but bad habits. As I've tried to make clear: I am trying to improve my technique right now. That is the goal right now. I'm not really sure what alternative there is. I agree that learning technique musically is valuable and I am not suggesting doing endless noodling with chromatic exercises (even though I have a book full of them). I have been practi ing my scale exercises as those are musical - you are learning diatonically what to play and how to get there, through the various intervals. If there's a better way of doing this that doesn't involve busting your left arm then I'm open to learning it. I don't really know what else to do and a trip to Florida to study with Jeff Berlin isn't really on the cards

True, but i'm not sure how to do that in a way that achieves the same end. That's really what this thread is about.

Ok this isn't working out at all. I've spent two hours this morning doing scales/intervals and two hours in the afternoon on arpeggios. IN both cases using a matronome and increasing the tempo incrementally to push it as fast as I can play. My arm is starting to ache doing this so clearly this is bad practice, but I cannot find any other way to develop speed and dexterity.

Thanks. I'm beginning to think that spending 2 hours working on scales/modes/intervals as technique is excessive. But i can't thhink of any other way to build technique. It seems to cover all the dexterity you would need through intervals - never mind arpeggios. I haven't even done that today! Also it can be pretty hard going on the muscles. There's such a thing as overdoing it. I need to find the right kind of routine, not just noodling away and thus getting nowhere (or rather, getting frustrated). But i have yet to see a bass exercise book/dvd that actually covers this. I will look into the John Pattituci stuff. He's a player I've never really listened to (i'm not a fan of fusion except the really old school stuff like Mahavishnu from way back in the day).

[quote name='BassMan94' timestamp='1342883951' post='1742367'] Get the jaco dvd or off the web (yutube) It isnt massivley into the theory side of things but man there are a load of excercises that will build up your technique. If i had got this when i first started I would be playing so much better. Just go through the Video and then start doing the excercises but dont rush (like me) and do one technique untill its perfect or have set days to do one technique and the other technique another day. Overall great stuff, as usual. Laslty, Id like to mention what was told to me, get a book/dvd or whatever tutorial thing you have and keep it ! dont start 1 and find another book, it just spoils what you are learning from one and the other book says its wrong. So stick to your guns is what I should say [/quote]Do you mean the Jerry Jemmott interview video? I saw that years ago, a friend of mine that also played had it. I don't remember Jaco being at his best when that was filmed, I also don't remember it having a lot of technical stuff. I could never get the hang of his preferred style of right hand muting, it feels very unnatural. Maybe it's different if you got big hands like him, but it placed too much of a stretch on the tendons and limited the picking fingers. I agree about the book comment. I have few books, mainly the Musicians Institute series, but they are on different topics including theory. But these are books i've had for years. The bass fitness book is the one I referred to earlier. I could do with some advice on how to approach that. Just working through the first part took two hours alone! The problem i have with that book is that it shoudl have been distilled into a bit size exercise you can fit into your routine, or at least to give advice on how to work it into a routine. Currently I spend most of my practice time using the metronome going over scales/modes (i think i've said this before) through different intervals including playing them as chord tones/arpeggios. That takes a lot of time, but it seems the best way to develop knowledge of notes, patterns, dexterity and all the rest of it.

I've never heard about floating thumb before, not properly, until about a fortnight ago. In retrospect it actually explains how a lot of people I like play, well notably Steve Harris anyway. I could never work out how on earth how played the thing. Geezer Butler seems to have a similar technique in how he plucks, but he has a bizarre shaped thumb that seems anchored on the pickup regardless. He also really goes to town with his hand. As far as I can manage, obviously I haven't played it for what you would consider long enough, but that's the problem isn't it. If i devote time to that technique that's time going back and completely starting afresh. Is that really worth it? Certainly there are plenty of players that don't use FT who get by so why can't I? Jaco didn't! (I'm sure that invoking his name is some kind of bass player's godwins law effect...) I'm used to having my thumb anchored. IN fact it gives me leverage when i pluck. It's the whole opposable thumbs deal. I cannot play, certainly not right now, without that anchor. Sometimes that anchor is too tense and it's like you are almost pulling against your thumb, which I'm sure can't be natural.

Getting by is one thing. I'm trying to develop a better technique all round. Properly. I've gotten where I am by fumbling my way through, i suspect that if i were ever in a recording studio getting by would be seen for what it is very quickly. So i need to really sort it all out, but that's actually quite difficult. There are many ways to play and what wors for some doesn't work for others. FOr instance I cannot concieve how people like Flea can play effectively with basses slung low, my wrists bend way too much to even reach the high notes like that. Then there's the floating thumb, it sounds ideal, but it feels far too alien to me, and, more importantly, when it comes to string skipping and interval playing your thumb is in the way so you have to (afaik) move your arm/elbow.shoulder up and down like a piston which strikes me as very inefficient. I've been trying to develop a floating anchor, which i suspect is how most people default to playing, but when i'm on the a string, i find my hand and thumb lift off the E string when playing on the G, which means that is prone to noise and sympathetic ringing. So again, it's all a bit of a botch job and I'm not really sure how to solve this. I realise all this may make me sound like some OCD anally retentive loon, but I've been playing since about 1990 and it's really time to get it together. Some of these kids these days have learned technique that far outstrips mine in about half the time! That girl that plays with Jeff Beck just embarasses me! Never mind all the youtube bass athletes!

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1342806031' post='1741366'] The way I see it, you have two choices : 1. If you are happy using the raking technique and it does not hinder your tone or playing, then what's the problem ? Stick with it. No one is going to shoot you for doing so. 2. It is generally accepted that AP is the way to go. If you really want to master this, then practice it for as long as it takes to feel right, 'till your hands DONT want to dig in more, and it becomes second nature. If you feel that raking is "contaminating" your practice, then option #2 is a no brain-er. [/quote] Most people, I'm guessing, rake because they haven't learned or don't know any better. Assuming that AP is indeed more efficient. However raking is also an efficient means to get around on adjacent strings and a lot of players use it. Both are as valid and as effective techniques as each other it seems to me, I may be wrong. I'm certainly not the expert. So it isn't a question of disapproval (in fact i've just got back into a chris squire kick and 99% of them time when I jam along with pick players I use a pick - and I bloody well enjoy that too). It's a question of what's effective. Both are equal, for me. But when I practice, I try not to rake. That at least seems more effective. Raking, essentially, isn't taht difficult. It's a natural thing: when the plucking finger comes to rest it's on the string below so you're halfway there when it comes to playing a note on that string. I like the style I have developed, but it's certainly not flawless! And i want to improve. That's why, over the past fortnight, i've gotten massively back into practicing (maybe too much, frankly. I give my hands a damn good workout!)

Thanks. Currently I am practicing strict alternation, no raking, even though that's what i would normally do. I'm told this is better. But some people favour raking, despite the counter argument being that it's poor for fast 16th note type runs, or string skipping (which is a problem). I'm really not sure what to think. Over the last several years I've developed a style that favours raking considerably. It's great fopr playing lines such as Jah Wobble's Visions of You. I get a fatter tone with my hands laying more flat across the string. But if I want to play alternating my hands want to dig in more which, although i'm certainly no expert, doesn't feel right. I don't know if this is just a matter of practice makes perfect (which is fine), or whether I'm contaminating my practice by using poor technique, and sabotaging myself without knowing. This is my biggest issue right now, and I don't know what I can do about it.

A great player (i've never heard of him before thoug fwiw). But actually I would have chosen to play that line using the fingers for that really funky fingerstyle sound. Slap these days is overproduced, though the alternative seems to be to emulate the Bootsy mutron sound which is not exactly an original choice either. I'm not dissing the technique, but I do wonder what the point of learning it is actually. I can already play that kind of line (touchwood) so do i need to learn anything else? How many bands are looking for doublethump pop triplet victor wooten clones? As much as Wooten is technically incredible - and i'm sure a top bloke - I have never listend to his playing other than as a technical thing. I have no real desire to buy his records. So I agree that it's best used sparingly. But as Laswell observed years ago; it's been done to death!

[quote name='marwood' timestamp='1342651119' post='1738916'] This clip is close to the end of the dvd where it gets tricky, but the whole thing it is actually really good as a step by step guide to a solid technique if you don't mind the 80's thing going on! Have looked at a few other dvds on slap, but this is my fav... recommended! [/quote] I thought that must be the case, it's pretty hardcore stuff It looks like a pretty comprehensive program, but it's gotten me thinking: just how many people/bands/songs do you hear that aren't bass player anthems that feature all this stuff? I'm beginning to wonder if it's really worth learning all this stuff. Everyone that plays bass on youtube does this stuff. It's everywhere, and really - is it musical? Would you want to listen to a song that was overpowered by crazy slap athletics and pop triplets? It sort of works for the likes of Les Claypool because it's done in a quirky comical way. Even Flea calmed himself down back in the day. You don't hear Bootsy doing these bass athletics. I'm really torn as to what I'm trying to achieve learning this stuff.

[quote name='marwood' timestamp='1342601105' post='1737504'] Have you heard of the slap bass program by Alexis Sklarevski? Instructional video from the 80's by a bass teacher at MI, has been reissued on dvd now, breaks down everything really well... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aK-QFwaRZc&feature=related[/media] [/quote]how on god's earth do you do that finger slapping thing (i've seen some indian guy do it as well, tabla rhythms), it seems your wrist has to bend in a very weird way around the instrument's body.

I've been watching the Ed Friedland video, but it doesn't give you enough real exercises to develop speed and dexterity. It's good for showing the techniques, and there's some good left hand slap exercises, but not for developing it. Slapping scales doesn't really feel right.

I've been playing for years. I just haven't practised in a long time and am entirely self taught. I'm trying to sort out the problems I have, but for the reasons you mention it is very difficult to know what to do. It may be just practicing it but I don't want to spend time practicing something that's poor technique to begin with.

I used to rake pretty much all the time, probably not very well, as my means of playing. However when it comes to string skipping (such as when i practice intervals like fifths and sixths, which i try to do) there's a problem. It doesn't seem natural: the finger rakes the string you don't want to play, even if it's (usually)naturally muted by the left hand, it's discernible and seems sloppy. So i'm trying to learn alternate plucking but I find that when my right hand is relaxed it naturally feels sloppy. If i try to play more tidy the hand becomes more tense and curves more, like a claw, and the plucking action is more pronounced with the finger having more contact with the string and moving more when it comes off. I gather that's not correct, but neither way seems natural to me. Am I doing somethign wrong? Given that both picking fingers index and middle, that is) are different lengths (assuming i don't have alien hands of course!) there is also a tendency to favour one finger regardless. I dont' really know what to do here. I watched Scott Devine's excellent string skipping octave exercise, but i couldn't really see how he was actually picking the notes across the strings.

ok thanks. I start with the metronome at the same speed each time. It goes as far as it can and that's it. I'm not sure about starting at a faster rate each time.

[quote name='Eggy' timestamp='1342438570' post='1734809'] Hi, I have found that setting myself a regular schedule really helps concentrate. I have an hour a day and so spend 15 minutes each on Scales Arpeggios Technique Timing And then practising songs after that. I always try to use backing tracks with the relevant chord(s) for the scales & arpegs to try to develop my ear and groove at the same time. Think of a rhythm and play that to the tracks As mentioned above, Scott's videos are really helpful Regards Eggy [/quote]what technique stuff do you practise, how?

Well, that was my original point: lack of exercises isn't the problem. Most effecient way to spend your time is. I've spent 6 hours practicing today. Not a problem per se, but I want to know that I'm doing so effectively. I spent the first two hours doing the first part of Bass Fitness. Then I did some slap bass exercises (largely of my own devising based on the ed friedland dvd Then I did some scales going up in various intervals in the key of G across the neck. Each of those two hour instances had a couple of hours rest inbetween. It wasn't all at once. And the lessons on the above link are not working. Thanks anyway.

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1342355257' post='1733610'] You need to focus on every aspect of playing. From a theory point of view I recommend working on CHORD TONES. Check them out on the site I posted earlier. [/quote]I'm interested in improvign my technique at the moment. Learning theory isn't what I want to do at the moment. I have a decent enough knwoledge of chords/tones/scales for now.

That's great, but what does he recommend? Practise scales? How do you develop technique if you don't focus on technical issues, such as finger dexterity?

There are so many things, so many exercises, so many aspects to work on, how do you develop a decent practice routine and not just widdle away your time? For instance I am trying to build up speed and dexterity along with a consistent right hand technique. I practise going up the neck across all four strings in, say, the key of G, in a different mode playing straight up, then in thirds, fifths, sixths and then arpeggios. That seems to me to cover everything. I also have the BAss Fitness book I brought years ago which itself has a ton of exercises. 200 of them; it recommends taking 15 minutes per exercise (that would be about 50 hours worth). How do you build a realistic effective practice session to work on things like this?

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1342174347' post='1730735'] How fast do you want to go? You can play along to YouTube vids and CD's until you can play as fast as you need, but the benefit of a metronome is you can speed it up as you want. Playing with a metronome is like playing with a boring drummer but with better timing. How bad is that? [/quote]Well I don't know any drummers so that's not an option. How fast do I want to go? How long is a piece of string!

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1342171261' post='1730660'] This one always makes me scratch my head, at least a little. I completely agree that being a slave to a metronome is potentially self-defeating but, in my experience, spending some time with one can pay dividends in terms of defining a players relationship with the pulse. For me, what you are practising when you work with a metronome is not 'playing in time' but 'playing in time alongside another sound-source'. I have come across more than a handful of players over the years who sound great on their own but who can't really play their stuff when there is a defined pulse being created around them. In short, I think there is a lot to be said for practising without a metronome to get the thing right but playing [i]with[/i] a metronome to get it right 'in time' i.e practising playing what you are doing whilst listening to another person (machine) playing as well. When that skill is developed and you are playing with real people, you can use your developed listening skill to react to the time around you, thereby turning the metronomic into the musical. When people say 'Jeff Berlin says metronomes are a waste of time', I say Gary Burton and John McLaughlin would disagree. Personally, I prefer a drum machine to a metronome but sometimes the metronome is the convenient option. And JB is in no way the 'grooviest' player out there an can be a little 'soulless' so we have to ask whether his perspective is the only legitimate one. I am not trashing his views, just saying that metronomes have their place. [/quote]I'm not posting to discuss his comments per se, but in the context of developing speed etc, as I said. I'm also not advocating his music. I've never really been a fan of jazz/fusion, except in certain cases. Most of it bores me silly. JB is undoubtedly a competent and successful musician and the stuff he did with Bruford interested me, but I wouldn't listen to it much anymore. The same with Jaco Pastorius: another excellent musician, obviously, but his music, for the most part, bored me senseless. I have no interested in listening to him play Charlie Parker pieces, at all. But he obviously knew how to play well (not that I want to discuss him anymore than I want to discuss JB or another such player, and there are a ton of these competent jazzesque players).

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1342168729' post='1730569'] I don't understand that comment. You need to be in time and to play at the highest level you need perfect timing. If you can do that without a metronome then you're luckier than me but the metronome is only a tool to help you improve your playing, like an amp, a tuner or the chair you sit on when you’re practicing. [/quote]Jeff Berlin isn't a fan of using the metronome. It's a little unclear whether he's against it entirely, or in certain situations. My point isn't so much about timing, but developing spead. Many players, myself included, have tried working with a metronome to develop speed, increasing the tempo bit by bit. But we hit a wall. So getting rid of the metronome, as JB seems to suggest, would help. But how do you develop speed without it?