murrmac123

[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1321655047' post='1441802'] Do you really think all this name calling will help sell your stick? It's supposed to be against forum policy and it makes you look desperate. [/quote] The only desperation I am experiencing is that I am desperately trying to figure out how expressing delight that somebody is still alive and kicking and complimenting them on their inimitable style, could be construed as "name-calling" ...

Well, well, well, I thought this thread was dead and gone, but I am delighted to see that Vibrating G string is still alive and kicking, and still posting in his inimitable style. Interesting as well to see the advent of Namisuke, who sent me a mysterious Ebay message some days ago asking if I was aware of Rectify Master, which of course I was. I do hope that Namisuke is not contemplating taking me to court for infringement of his patent, assuming it is ever granted, ( which it might well be, the US patent office would grant you a patent for inventing the shoelace, as long as you paid the fee.) Enforcing it is a different ballgame, however, and in this case, as long as Namisuke is seeking patent protection for the adjustable bow, then he is very welcome. But if he is seeking patent protection for the concept of leveling under string tension, then think again, dude. Google "prior art" in reference to patent application. In this particular instance, the prior art dates back at least twenty years. That said, I wish Namisuke all the very best with his invention, as far as I can see it is a well made artefact, and if he can persuade people to buy it, well, that's what the free market is all about.

Vibrating G string, you sure are an interesting guy. My first impression, that you were a disturbed , ill mannered youth, has now been tempered by your revelation that you are entering your declining years. Your internet style is kinda reminiscent of a bag-lady standing in the middle of the road shouting at the traffic, but hey, we we are all individuals, so you are forgiven ... The key thing here is that you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick and you won't let it go. You have become fixated with the misapprehension that I am advocating that players should play with a flat fretboard with no relief. With the utmost respect (respect which is due to one of your advanced years) I have said nothing of the sort, neither on this thread nor on the Ebay listing which started off this thread. How much relief is dialled into the set up is the choice of the player, some players like .012" relief (hey, maybe some like even more) others like it down to .006" or less , and believe it or not, there are in fact many Telecaster players who like no relief whatsoever in their necks, they want the fretboard dead straight. I am amazed that you haven't encountered this, you being based in LA, and having done hundreds of set -ups ... The "S-Curve "thing is something else which is causing confusion. You appear to be equating the S- curve ( which is automatically produced in a slender column which is compressed at both ends and simultaneously subjected to a counteractive force ) with the configuration which is necessary for a guitar to play optimally. Nobody ( at least not me) is claiming that a fretboard should be dead straight along its full length in playing conditions. There should be a gentle concave curve between the first and (on a bass ) the 17th fret (on a six string that would be the 15th fret) and how much relief there should be is totally up to the player. The frets after the 17th should be sanded with a fall-away to minimize the chances of fret buzz. This configuration is very far removed from an "S curve". The bottom line is that this configuration should be totally under the control of the tech, and should not be at the mercy of the whims of a pIece of wood ( and you know as well as I do that every neck is different) . When you level the frets with the fret board straight under string tension, you have 100% total control of the configuration, simply by loosening off the trussrod. If you level the frets with the strings off , with no string tension, and then rely on the string tension to pull the neck into relief ( which will be excessive and has to be countered by tightening the rod ), you are embarking on a crap-shoot, which will probably work out OK most of the time, but which will most certainly not work 100% of the time. OK that's the technical bit out of the way. You threw in some heavyweight names there, Sadowsky, Erlewine and others. It might interest you to read the following quote from Roger Sadowsky, which he posted to the Stewmac website [b][font=comic sans ms, cursive]"I have been leveling fingerboards and frets for 30 years and thought I was pretty set in my ways. However, I have[/font][/b] [b][font=comic sans ms, cursive]recently tried the 16" steel levelers (#4578) and man, talk about teaching an old dog new tricks! My fingerboards have[/font][/b] [b][font=comic sans ms, cursive]never been better, and they work much better than files for leveling frets.Thank you again, StewMac!!!"[/font][/b] Now, let me say that I have been leveling fretboards for almost thirty years and have never used anything other than 19" long precision ground sanding beams (yes, the same ones as I sell on Ebay) . However, I am a good friend of oneof the top luthiers in your home state, and for fret leveling he uses the same 10" file that he has used for God knowshow long. So , different strokes for different folks. However, I live in hopes that he may yet experience the same epiphany that Roger Sadowsky underwent ... But the salient point is Roger's quote [b][font=comic sans ms, cursive]" ...talk about teaching an old dog new tricks!"[/font][/b] .... GEDDIT ? You also mentioned Dan ( it's Dan, not Dane btw) Erlewine. Let me quote you chapter and verse from Dan's renowned volume "Guitar Player Repair Guide " (Revised volume) from page 188 : [font=comic sans ms, cursive][b]"I wanted something which would duplicate the pressure of a fully strung guitar, so that as I worked on a neck, it would be under the same stress - and in the same configuration_- as when it was being played. "[/b][/font] Dan is of course referring here to the neck jig which he helped to develop (it was originally designed back in the day by Don Teeter, who doesn't get the credit he deserves) Personally, I have issues with the Stewmac Jig, this isn't the time or place to discuss them, but, hey, you were the one who brought up Dan (not Dane btw) Erlewine, so there you go ... Finally, in the name dropping scenario (which you instigated btw, not me) I would like to bring to your attention the estimable Rick Turner. I am assuming you are familiar with the name, he operates in California, and he carries more clout than you , me and all the other names mentioned so far put together. If you are at all familiar with the Californian scene, you will know that Rick is THE MAN . And guess what ? Rick Turner levels his fretboards in exactly the same way as I do. Don't believe me ? Just Google "Rick Turner fret leveling" Can I make one request, Vibrating G string? WIll you please read through the posts which I have made , and possibly even read the Ebay listing , before replying, and then make a measured response, rather than posting a knee-jerk reaction ? With all best wishes ...

The crux of the matter is this : Let's assume you have an instrument with a perfectly straight neck, there are no strings attached, and the trussrod is fully loosened off. Let us further assume that the fretboard is perfectly fretted with perfect frets, meaning that all the frets are exactly the same distance above the fretboard at every single point, while the neck is in this relaxed condition. Now you attach the strings, and bring them up to pitch. The neck now has a huge forward bow, right? So you tighten the trussrod (slacken the strings first if you feel you need to and bring them up to pitch afterwards) until the forward bow is gone. The tops of the frets are no longer in a straight line, and they are not in a continuous concave curve either. The tops of the frets are now following an S - curve , as is the top of the fretboard. You [b]cannot [/b]make the fretboard straight by tightening the trussrod. This might not matter if you are happy with a high action, but if you want the lowest possible buzz free action, it certainly does.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1319324411' post='1412814'] If you level your fretboard with the strings under tension you get a flat board with no relief. [/quote] Absoutely correct, that is precisely what is supposed to happen after leveling. Remember, you already [b]tightened [/b]the truss rod prior to leveling, in order to make the neck straight. After leveling, you then [b]slacken [/b]it off a tad, and that is what gives you the required relief.

Thank you , Kiwi, a very perceptive post. [quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1319319485' post='1412763'] I think the best results will vary according to how low you like the action on your instrument. For those who can slip a pound coin under their strings at the 12th fret, they probably don't need a lot of precision in the levelling. They could probably be happy with a fret job with the neck under truss rod tension alone. For those who like their action buzz free and a gnats whisker above the 12th fret, more care is needed to shape the frets flat when the neck is subject to EXACTLY the same tension as when fully strung with the string gauge of choice. [/quote] Exactly what I have been saying all along.

I am amazed that a bass forum would generate so much discussion about leveling frets under string tension. Maybe I should manufacture a longer version specifically for bass players .... [quote name='Johnston' timestamp='1319299834' post='1412479'] Okay whats different between a straight neck without strings and a straight one with?? I seen somewhere a guy use a long plane blade out of course but with wet and dry double sided sticky taped to the bottom to level frets. Except for taking the strings off and having to go under them one at a time how is this different? [/quote] I am assuming that by "long plane blade" you mean a HSS knife which is inserted into the cutter block of a planer (or as our American cousins would call it, a "jointer". If this is not what you mean , then my apologies. If the face of the knife [b]is[/b] in fact dead level and flat , then obviously this will do the job perfectly (although you do run the risk of slicing off your fingertips) . Most planer knives, however, are slightly concave along their length, although they register straight and true once they are clamped into the cutter block. Basically, any surface which is guaranteed flat and straight will do the job. What I offer is a surface which is guaranteed flat and straight, and which will operate effectively while the strings are up to tension. Over the years, I have come to realise that there are three topics which cause the most misunderstanding among guitarists. These are, in ascending order of mis-comprehension : A: conical ( AKA compound radius ) fretboards B : fret leveling under string tension C nut compensation. Thankfully we are only on level 2 ... The basic fact of the matter is that when you subject a slender column such as a guitar neck to a large degree of compression ( the strings exercise compression on the neck , they do not exercise tension ) and when you then try to counteract this compression by a counter- active force such as a truss rod, the inevitable result is a S shaped curve. That's the way it is, it's basic mechanics, as expounded by Euler hundreds of years ago, nothing has changed. This S shaped curve may be (in fact almost certainly will be) undetectable to the eye, but it will most certainly be detectable to the ear, because unless corrective measures are taken, there will undoubtedly be fret buzz. The corrective measures consist of leveling the frets, this can be done with the strings off, or the strings on, under tension. Leveling with the strings off, and with the neck straightened, will work OK in the majority of cases. Leveling with the strings on, up to tension, will work perfectly 100% of the time. The crux of the matter is that the fretboard will be slightly S shaped, but the tops of the frets will be totally co -planar. You then incorporate your desired relief by adjusting the truss rod. Hope this makes sense.

[quote name='Vibrating G String' timestamp='1315293311' post='1363733'] Never level a fretboard under tension. It should be leveled without tension so the string tension add some relief. [/quote] With respect, you could not be more wrong. The fretboard should be brought to straightness under tension by means of truss rod adjustment.(straightness being defined as the first fret, the fret over the truss - rod anchor, and the mid point all being co -linear.) . The frets should then be dressed with the neck under string tension, and you then slacken off the trussrod to give the required amount of relief. Doing it this way absolutely [b]guarantees[/b] that the instrument will play cleanly with no fret buzz. as long as the rest of the set-up is correct.( Obviously you still need to sand a fall-off in the upper frets) Doing it your way (presumably you slacken all the strings and then straighten the neck with the trussrod prior to leveling the frets) will indeed work adequately in the majority of cases, but there will be a significant number of cases where it doesn't work, because the neck is behaving differently than it should when subjected to string tension, ie it is not curving as predictably as one would wish, resulting in fret buzz. even after the frets have been leveled. Every guitar tech with any degree of experience will have encountered this phenomenon. The solution, as I said above, is to level the frets with the neck under full string tension. There is indeed a situation where dressing frets with the strings off is advisable, and that is when the frets are badly worn and grooved, but the customer just wants them dressed but does not want a refret. In that case, it is a [b]lot [/b]quicker to do a conventional fret dress with the strings off , and hope for the best. If it works, (and it probably will) and there is no fret buzz, then well and good. If there[b] is [/b]any fret buzz, then the only solution is to redress the frets with the neck under tension. That is why it is called the Advanced Fret Leveling System. You pays your money and you takes your choice ...