Ken Smith

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='1265530' date='Jun 11 2011, 06:35 PM']Just tried a little experiment. Went to UPS site.

3x2x2" package weighing one pound (seemed about right) from Ken's town to Paris (the OP was French but no stated location), with the usual add-ons like recorded delivery, handling on the French side, etc.

[b]$147.25[/b] [/quote]

Thank you. Last week it was about $100. but that included the estimated fuel surcharge that is on our UPS program which we use to ship UPS. We have a similar program now for USPS/Post as well.

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1262634' date='Jun 9 2011, 08:23 AM']Can I just clarify this poin heret, as I feel ( justifiably I'm afraid ) that this could turn even more into a Smith bashing session, the Smith I own is by far and away the best ( and to be fair the most expensive ) bass I have ever owned. I have however played much more expensive basses that just don't do it for me.

[b]Even the Smith website is poor. I find it confusing and difficult to navigate.

From a purely business perspective I think he really needs to adress this issue with a degree of urgency otherwise his business will suffer which would be a very real shame. I read an article recently - which I freely admit could be complete tosh - where the story went that the CR models are know no longer being referred to as Chuck Rainey models because of a dispute between Ken and Chuck. The point being, that if such stories are circulating freely then there is a problem at source.[/b]

Classic example of cracking product, crap customer service. I love my Smith but am not happy with the brand image.

Please sort it Ken, IMHumbleO the basses are the best, lets have the best customer service to match. I think that would be a world beating combo.
S[/quote]

Urgency? I read this just 2 hours ago and here I am. Was I too slow on joining the Forum and responding?

On the Website, it was designed over 10 years ago and when my son Mike can, he well load the new site. Most bass players we sell to are quite happy with the information we have. The new site will stream line its navigation. We do not make enough basses or have as big a business as some companies than can afford to hire outside companies to build and maintain their websites. Our prices are way below some that are trying to do the same and we offer a lot of features and build quality in every bass. To keep prices down, we do it in-house. My son is quite capable and is a Comp. Eng. Student at Drexel Univ. and does web-work and programing as well. He is just not here enough to get it done as we tried to complete it last summer. It is coming. I think information and product is more important then webdesign. It is all there but the design is a decade old. Sorry.

Now, your Chuck Rainy statement names no sense to me at all. Clearly you have put together some jumbled hearsay into something that you think is factual. Do you want the facts? Chuck and I have been friends now for nearly 30 years, way before he had a Smith bass. What bass he plays or buys has nothing to do with friendship. At one NAMM show when he had to go play a show at some string company he had an endorsement with, he came to my boot to get his bass strung with Smith Strings because he liked them better. I know the guy rubbing the other company booth and we both laughed at the fact he was doing a demo for them there as an endorser with a fresh set or our strings, not theirs. On occasion he calls and orders strings and pays for them as we have no product ties at the moment. This is not the only example of endorsing one brand and using a Smith. I know of other guys that did the same with our basses and strings.

On the CR=Chuch Rainy misnomer, I don;t think this will EVER end no matter how many times I explain. The BT Bolt-on was designed and made before Chuck ever played one or had his first Smith Bass. He did get one I believe the same year he got his first Smith, a neck thru BT 6 in Koa I recall. His wife at the time called and asked if we could do a model with his name on it and that is not something we really do. I did have a Bolt-on BT in the works in 6-string mainly because japan didn't get the Burner 6 samples to me when requested. They were worried the neck was too wide. So, we copied the copy of the BT and name the BTBO which we dubbed CR (Crunch Resonator, in-house name) but was listed I believe as a TRIBUTE to Chuck who played a Bolt-on bass. NOT his design and NOT a Chuck Rainey model. This was a bass we were making even before we met at the 1991 NAMM show. We had met years before in person and on the phone but that was the first time Chuck tried one of the 6s and wanted one.

I don't know of any bad blood between us, in business or otherwise. He was my favorite player whom I listened to and learned from when I was a player in NY and I will never loose respect for him as a musician.

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1262563' date='Jun 9 2011, 07:38 AM']If I thought it would make a blind bit of difference I would.

I'm afraid the impression I always get from dealing with Smith is that everyone else is out of step but them.

S[/quote]


Everyone else? We have shipped over 6,000 Hand made basses from our shop and about 1,700 Burners we completed here. Add 30 years of selling Strings and 2 years of selling Polish and if were to be correct, this company of mine would be long gone. Most customers are busy playing their Bass and prefer to play than chat I guess.

[quote name='bassbluestew' post='1262341' date='Jun 9 2011, 04:45 AM']Bojour mon ami , as a long time Smith lurker, and farily recent purchaser, I too have had a bad experience with Smith customer service. And don't think it's anything to do with the Burner series, it's pretty much across the board.

[b]I bought a beautiful used BSR5-GN ( the back of this bass is a work of art ) which came with the original hard case. Being a bit of a completeist I emailed Smith and asked if I could purchase the kit that comes with a new bass ( polish / allen keys / strap ) and he said he would sell me the strap ( $60 ) and polish ( $4) and throw in the allen keys free - HOWEVER there was a $300 ( yes THREE HUNDRED DOLLAR minimum order for overseas sales, and that doesn't include postage.[/b]

I didn't bother.

It is no surprise that a dwindling number of European dealers are willing to put up with this. US dealers seem to have him on a pedestal and he can do no wrong ( apart from Talkbass who I [i]THINK[/i] have banned him after a spat ). Again US owners are just SOOOO fawning it's almost sickening to read some of the message boards. Again I just don't bother now.

Contrast and compare with the service from other top US luthiers ( perhaps Jimmy Copollo aside - I think he and Ken went to the same customer service school, although to be fair Jimmy is more just forgetful and disorganised than nasty as Ken can appear at times, and Jimmy has recently employed someone to deal with customers and let him build the basses ). It doesn't put Smith in a good light, and the basses are expensive, and popular with a lot of pro players in Europe. Surely this is a market he can't ignore or afford to disenfranchise.

Like you I am very disapointed in Smith's attitude. If I didn't truly love this bass I would be moving it on as a token protest.
Good luck with the part,
Stewart[/quote]

Ok, that price for the Strap must have included the set of Dunlop Straploks because that is not the price for just the Strap which is published. We ship worldwide all the time and I don't know about a $300. minimum unless its a Dealer order of something. I would love to see ALL of the emails we exchanged. Maybe I had you mixed with some other business. I can't recall. This $300 minimum just doesn't seem true to me.

[quote name='XB26354' post='1261869' date='Jun 8 2011, 04:18 PM']I used to have a BSR6 and asked for some Smith strings and polishing fluid. He replied a few days later with "We don't ship small orders internationally". I sold the bass not long after. I imagine Smith can't be bothered with their non-US customers as they do enough business inside the states. Guess which brand I will not be buying in the future?[/quote]

But didn't I refer you to Juststrings.com that DOES ship small orders? Not all manufactures ship consumers directly. We are a small company and doing business world wide is not as easy as someone asking us to do what they want when they want it. I can;t tell you how many times I have emails companies about their product and didn't even get a reply at all. At least I replied ASAP and told you who would be best to but that from. I am sorry if I couldn't be your personal supplier but I did my best to answer your request.

It is easy to jump on the bashing wagon and complain. The actual facts help shed light on posts like this.

[quote name='Chris2112' post='1261761' date='Jun 8 2011, 03:24 PM']Ken is known for particularly bad customer service, as well as not really caring about the Burner basses. I think his justification was that they wern't his own instruments given their Japanese construction. I don't think he was ever particularly happy with the Burner basses or what became KSD basses.[/quote]

Ok, this need a bit of cleaning. When I designed the Burners in 1989, we were only making Neck thru basses and the owner for the factory, a friend of mine made the invitation. We supplied wood and later installed the circuits in-house. The Burners were in 4 models and the most expensive ones were still about half that of our USA handmade. They did quite well and we have no sorrow in that line in making them, selling them or discontinuing them when times changed about a decade later with bass products available. In total with the added BSR design the last two years, about 2,000 Burners were produced. We handled about 1,700 of them and another 300 were made and sold on a Royalty basis within Japan. Those we never touched and they had only the earlier Japan circuit.

The KSD's are a totally different product in the beginning with Brooklyn Gear (BG) wanting to market a Jazz bass from a good Korean factory but needed a personal design and designers name as well top market them. That's where I came in and helped them a bit along the way. When Fender tried to go after companies using there non-copyrighted Jazz body shape (their Head is protected but not the body) I was contacted by a NY Lawyer to pay a retainer for a class-action defense against Fender. Honestly, I like Fender and I have always been on friendly terms with them including some business with them at one point distribution some of our bass strings. If the body is theirs I said, 'fine, let them have it and pay what's owed'. 'Then use my BSR body pattern, it works just fine'. But sadly to their intent, Fender lost that battle. I would feel the same if my designs were used free of charge by everyone. Wouldn't you? So, they continued to make the KSD Jazz models. At that time however I gave Brooklyn all of the Burner patterns for 4, 5, and 6 string including the heads. The head was used first in the 6 with a jazz body but before BG could make anything new, the production was switched to China for a good reason. Korea could not compete with China and because f that, the quality was slipping as the factory lost brand customers one after another. D'Andrea was hired at about that time to distribute the KSD line for BG of which I heard only a few details about at first. Within a year or so BG threw in the Towel and offered the KSD line to them as an agreed switch between all parties, me (Ken Smith) included.

So, the Smith Burners from the 1990s and the KSD Burners had little to do with one another directly. The Burner used the BT body design from a sample we sent to Japan in early 1989. Connected, but with a decade in-between so not directly.

So, I DO care about any bass with my name on it or a product I collect Royalties. It's just that in many cases. regardless of how I care, it may not be MY product other than my design so I have to refer all requests to the company that runs that product and rents that product name.

As far as being happy with the Burners, I had a Job a few months ago here locally (yes, I still can play) and it was that show 'Fame'. My son Jon (a professional player) had borrowed my 5 string so I asked, 'what can I have that's available at home?' He said 'the Burner 4'. So, I gigged 5 nights with the Burner doing an R&B show and all was fine. I also had a doubling gig (BG and DB/Upright) the week before and used the same bass. So, I have used them as well, personally!

[quote name='tournesol74' post='1261641' date='Jun 8 2011, 02:11 PM']Hi everyone,

I just have an experience with the Ken Smith customer service, I have one KS burner da5, and one pot in the electronic is broken. I ask for the customer service to pay for a new one, it seems to be 10$ but they ask me 100 $ for shipping !
I'm in France

I'm not sure it's really fair, I bought a lot of time some musical stuff in USA and never pay 100$ for a pot. For strings I pay 5$, so I don't think a pot weight more.

sorry for my english...[/quote]

Ok, this was the first from him here about a Pot. After a few emails with pictures I knew what he needed. He had bought a used bass over 10 years old (we stopped making the Burners in 1998 and from 1993 thru 2000 or so with the BSR 'B'(urner) we used the exact same circuit in all of our basses minus the Mid-board that was only on the 5-knob BMT units but this if 4 of the 5 knobs of the same circuit.

I will try and just put all of this information with this customer here and not quote him again and take up any more space than necessary. I will go into more detail as well with costs and expenses so everyone who has the patience can read and understand better what we have to do.

If someone walks in to buy something it is easy and we can do it as simple as fast food and he's off. If we have to ship it in-Country then we have to pack it, box it, invoice it, collect the money, ship it, pay UPS (or postal), record the payment in the accounting program (the accountant does the payment work and deposits) and make the deposit in the bank manually or in the system depending how we get paid. If this is international (including bordering Mexico and Canada, still a different country), we have more steps and some other information to fill out within the shipping documents that most never see when they receive the goods. Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks, shipping out of USA has become more and more detailed than ever before.

For Foreign payments we prefer guaranteed funds like Bank wire, western union or Money Gram Wires or even US Postal money orders. Paypal costs us 4% and we have to wait a few days to get the payment and then we get only a net amount. Credit Cards also cost and as well with Paypal, is double time to record payments in our system. Also, we pay a higher rate and risk factor taking Cards over the phone and email rather than in person and the bank charges us for that. The solution is Wire type payment for Foreign orders.

It would cost me less to give a part away in labor than ship and collect for a small part and that is the truth. Still, we have to declare what is in the box.

In this case, we went on UPS and put in his address and the price with hidden charges came to about $100 so I quoted that. Also, a few months ago, when the UPS bill came in we were paying 11% fuel surcharge for every package overseas. Then, it was 13% last month and 2 weeks ago up to 15%. Wyen UPS send us the annual software it cannot be updated with Fuel Surcharges so they bill that weekly. When we look up the shipping amount, we have to add in that cost with insurance and whatever might apply. We also said that USPS/Postal will cost half or less but needed the full address to check. He had already flown off the handle by then. Last week I emailed him back and said the Postal charge is $30. I suggested that he buy some strings because the shipping will be the same. We have a $25. minimum purchase domestically and for this type of sale, we can hold that but would prefer $50 of goods for the extra trouble. This again is not a warranty or customer service issue other than 10-15 years ago, we shipped that bass to someone and now he bought t broken. Can you get this kind of service when your breaks wear out or your shoes? I return all emails the following business day. If I will be out, I let them know that when I return, I will get all of the info to him. Personally. For the last several years, all emails have been coming directly into my PC in a locked room. No one can read or reply to them but me. Before that, depending on when, someone else did the replies for sales and service and often without consulting me. There were problems and when I learned of them, I made it a policy that I review all information going out to make sure no one is improvising the answers. Now without a secretary or personal assistant, I do them all myself. There are only 6 people that work here now and I am one of them.

When a part other then the exact part is used for a circuit, bad things happen. I know because we have fixed many basses where the circuit didn't work because of it, was ruined and didn't work at all or, the wood was reamed out with a bigger hole that was costly to repair. The value of a Pot is only one factor, like the color of a Shoe! The shaft diameter, threading, center de-tent, taper and mounting to the board design is all inclusive or what makes any part important to be the original.

I know he was disappointed in getting a used broken bass but all we did was quote the costs to send him the part and something else like Strings to save money on combined shipping. usually we get thanked for helping people or for suggesting it. In thus case, he went on 3 Forums that I have seen so far and was crying Foul. maybe he should go back to who sold him the older, used bass be it a Smith Burner or USA handmade. My answers would have been the same regardless in this matter. In fact, I don't remember knowing it was a Burner at first, just the old 9v. maybe, communication was not crystal clear on the model of bass, just the part needed.

Ok, I see that my presence was just announced. I am not here to crash your bashing party but rather to fix a few (many actually) errors, mis-truths and some what might call out right fictitious writings. There are 3 pages of 'mud' to sift thru here so I guess the best way is to go back to the beginning, quote the post and highlight the part of it I am responding to and correcting if necessary which is in most cases. You guys are quite the creative writers up here so I don't intend to have a typing duel, just set some facts straight.

Several years ago a person bought a Smith bass on Ebay (I think) and had it shipped straight to us for set-up and clean up. When we got the bass, it was a mess and needed somewhat of an actual restoration. We quoted about $800 at that time and I don't remember all that it needed but it needed a lot. After moans and cries from the buyer after he talked to the seller from Ebay we offered to do it for $600 and the two of them split the cost. About 6 months later from using a Monster Cable, he wore out the jack so we quoted the cost to ship a new one. He was upset that we wouldn't replace his worn Jack for free. Not to get into detail but Monster Cable (after replacing 100s or more Jacks) needs to let people know that they use a type 2 tip on their plugs which are slightly over-sized which do in time strip the inner spring of most Barrel type Jacks. They do offer a Type 1 and even told me to refer customers to them to have their cables modified if need be but that is NOT My job. It is Monster's job to make clear what jacks their cable works best with. The top mounted prong type jack is just fine because you can squeeze them together if the stretch out. You can't do that with an enclosed Barrel Jack. Sorry Monster, I have been fighting this problem for over 20 years. Being that this is a public Forum and not my Website, I feel safer in a legal way letting people know that this situation has existed for decades (at least 2).

That jack problem brought me on to Talkbass, a Thread which grew to over 225 replies in a week and over 8,000 views before I chimed in. Talk about a 'crap-storm'. Been there and done that and now it seems (10 years older now, me that is) that another camp fire lit the Forrest and no one knows how to put it out. Well, let's see what happens here. I will do my best as I said and I don't think it will be short. Hopefully it will be peaceful. I will not reply tp or quote new posts until I catch up to them in order. This is Saturday here at about 5pm and I came into the shop for just this reason because someone tried to join MY Forum to bring this to my attention which I noticed last night but needed to be in-office to take care of it. Please be patient as I may need a few breaks, dinner, bathroom, rest, etc before I get thru it all but, I intend to in a civil and professional manner.