Rob MacKillop

To quote Robert Burns: "Eight inch will please a lady".

Well, Gareth, it will take a few weeks or months to feel you are no longer playing patterns, at least for me it will. I like to just doodle with them sometimes, getting into a groove, following my instincts, no backing track or chord chart. I’m stuck around the V7b9 pages, but enjoying it still. One thing that might derail me is getting a new viola da gamba, or bass viol, in a couple of weeks. That’s bound to take most of my attention. I’ve been waiting for it for months. That and the bass will be my main instruments going forward.

Good to see you here, Mark. I think we could open the thread up to including both the Low Down books as well.

Many thanks. I’ve lived with these suites for four decades and on a variety of instruments and tunings, with each instrument and tuning bringing out different shades and colours. There are worst ways to spend one’s time.

Dowland on the bass! I never thought of that. I’ve played most of his works on the lute, where it sits perfectly of course. Never thought of it in 5ths tuning, let alone on a bass. Kudos for exploring that! Any online recording?

The first set I had was the first recording of all six by Anner Bylsma, which I still love some 45 years later. Not so much his second recording of all six. Not sure why. I have his book discussing the suites, and his approach to them which goes against what everyone else does 😆 I don’t know of Queyras. Interpretations tend to fall into two camps: Romantic/Heroic or Earthy Dance Music. Sometimes a combination of the two is attempted. If you can stand listening to the tenor banjo, here’s my take on the first suite: and the 2nd suite on a classical guitar tuned a fifth lower, with special strings from Aquila: Through illness these last two years I now find it very difficult to play fingerstyle, so am spending more time with a bow on my viola da gamba - as close as I’ll get to playing a cello. I find I can also play bass with thumb and index, which explains my investigation in how to transfer Bach to that instrument. It has been useful reading all the comments here.

Bach seemed to have a didactic purpose behind the suites: the first four suites increase in difficulty, the fifth introduces a scordatura, and the sixth adds another string in the treble! By the way, here's my favourite Bach performance. It's on the 5-string piccolo cello by a student:

Cheers. I had a student trying to work from the Josquin book, so I have a good insight into how very much more difficult even the first (simplest) suite is in EADG tuning. I’m not saying it can’t be done, or doesn’t sound good, just that it is far harder than on any other tuning I know. I encourage everyone to explore Bach’s music on their instrument, irrespective of the tuning. It’s still good for the soul!

Henry Cow! Haven’t heard them since the 70s! Great band.

Me too. My wife has. 6-string bass viol, which I’ve been playing for a while, but I’ve just recently received a 7-string, and am ‘in transition’. Most of my repertoire remains for six strings. Good to know there’s another viol player here!

Good idea!

Yes. Anna notates the tuning at the start of the score for the 6th suite, all five strings. It’s an incredible suite, but I have to admit some of it is beyond my skill on any instrument. 😔

And the violoncello da spalla, thought by many scholars to be the instrument Bach wrote for.

Here’s a good introduction to the 5-string piccolo cello, tuned CGDAE. Watch her left-hand fingering at the end. Bach always wrote as if he had the instrument in hand.

Are you 100% sure about that? Edited versions cannot be trusted. I’ll have to look up the Anna Magdelena Bach manuscript again. My understanding is that it was for 4-strings with the first string down a tone, and that the 6th suite was for five strings. But I’m no Bach expert.

That's kind of my point. In 5ths tuning, everything fits the hand beautifully. In standard bass tuning, life gets complicated. In 5ths, it's like Bach wrote them for that tuning...oh, wait a minute, he did! 🙂 You can see and feel him sitting down with a cello banjo (☺️) and working it all out. If I could get some of that on a fretless short-scale bass guitar, I'd be happy.

I wasn't contemplating playing them on a DB, though I have to say they can sound great on that instrument. I'll leave that for my next life!

Thanks, itu. Appreciated. I was contemplating the cheap Thomann fretless Beat Bass, £175, just for trying the project out, fingering-wise. I've already recorded the first three suites on a tenor and cello-banjo, so have experience of CGDA. Cello-banjo:

Yes, I’m aware of all that, thanks. I forgot to mention I also play a 7-string Viola da gamba, but only well enough for the simpler Bach movements. It is thought that lute players still played circa French baroque pitch for solo work, but for ensemble work that could vary up and down depending where you were based. As a lute player, I often use all-gut strings at 392, sometimes even slightly lower if the instrument seems to want it. Baroque pitch is a musical feast. Yes, the 6th suite is for 5 strings, and the 5th suite has the first string down a tone. I’m not looking to arrange other music for the bass, just the cello suites, which I’ve been exploring on and off for 40 years or so. It’s always refreshing to explore them on different tunings and instruments. As I’m focused on the 4-string bass these days I thought I’d put some thought into how best to play them, and I quickly came to the conclusion that EADG would cause many problems. Once you’ve played them in 5ths tuning, and seen how perfectly they fit, it’s worth pondering at least how to emulate that on the bass. Hmm…maybe a piccolo bass 😎

Let’s see… Cello: CGDA at 440 pitch or BbFCG at baroque 392 pitch 5-string bass: BEADG Take out the A string: BEDG From there you could get BbFCG That wouldn’t be as good as having the best gauges for each note, but would do for getting an idea how it might sound, and how playable the music is. Tune to BbFCG, but imagine it is CGDA at baroque pitch. It could be done…

Cellists manage. Mind you, Bach’s cello suites were not written for the cello as we know it. Most scholars now agree he composed them for the violoncello da spalla, which is like an overgrown viola, played on the shoulder. You’ll find some videos on YouTube showing that.

It’s a good page 👍

I’ve played Bach’s cello suites on guitar, baroque lute, and tenor banjo. Playing them in 5ths tuning was a revelation. I’ve never been convinced they work well in standard bass tuning. Now I’m dreaming of playing them on a fretless bass in 5ths tuning. Anyone done this? What strings to use to get the tuning? Original keys are not something Bach was too concerned with, as he changed the 5th suite from Cm to Gm when arranging it for lute. So the bass would not have to be tuned to the cello tuning of CGDA (bass to treble), as long as they are in 5ths. Any ideas?

Keep up the good work, Gareth! I'm still on page 31, but taking them round the cycle from memory. My brain trips up sometimes, getting confused between tonal harmony and alternating I-V harmony. In for example the key of C, tonal harmony has the G7 on the V chord - no surprise there! So I find myself scratching my head sometimes when the G bass is instead a I chord, and the 4th and 6th notes of the key are both a V7 chord. LOL. I keep forgetting, of course, that these shapes are for over a static chord, and therefore the Tonal rules do not apply. Looking ahead, I see Chapter 2 might shed some light on all of this, but I'll wait until I'm comfortable with the various shapes over a static chord before launching into it.

Started on page 31, memorizing the V7b9 patterns in situations, then going round the cycle of keys. Good to have a little dissonance in there, and of course the moveable dim7 shape.