BadHands

Absolutely. I like to pick up technical advice from the shredders because they have the greatest understanding of facilitating that technique, so WHATEVER comes to my mind, I can play it.

I'm more likely to listen to something less rock-based, though. 

What's fascinating to me is learning how the setup/gear of those shredders contributes to their sound, and how an ultra-low action etc doesn't really work for slap, so ultimately I get the best of both in finding the correct middle ground for me. 

I'll add a third option as well as a friend of mine admitted he doesn't know any new music since we left school in '06; I keep an ear out for Radio1 now so I can hear how the landscape of pop music shifts. 

2 hours ago, TheLowDown said:

The way I see it, at its simplest level use the Mixolydian for dominant chords, Locrian for (half) diminished chords, Dorian for minor chords, and Ionian for major chords. The others(Lydian for major chords, and Aeolian and Phrygian for minor chords) are used for 'colour'. You can get an idea of the different colour of each mode by playing them all from the same root note.

 

Don't think of Ionian starting on C, Dorian beginning on D and so on. If you remember and understand the modes in terms of their scale degree and how it is different to the major scale. For example Dorian is the major scale but with flat 3rd and flat 7th.

 

I personally wouldn't focus too much on modes, but just be aware that they're there as a tool to be used for musical colour, especially if you want to solo. Practicing 7th chord arpeggios for major, minor, dominant, and half diminished chords is far more important imo. That's most of what you'll ever need for almost all gigs and in almost all genres.

Yep! Keeping each mode in the same key allows you to hear their differences, and stops each one sounding like it should resolve to whatever key you started in! 

6 hours ago, TKenrick said:

I think that a chord scale/mode approach to improvising (both basslines and solos) leads me to play much less musically than focusing on chord tones

I agree with this 9/10 particularly for basslines. As far as the musicality of it, surely playing a certain mode for long enough will increase your ability to create with it in your "Mental musical voice" and then find it on the fretboard? 

I also agree with how obnoxious a lot of players (Particularly the guitar-gods associated with playing modes) sound. We need to remember that practising and writing are separate things, and what we do to increase our musical palette (Specific, narrow-field practise) doesn't need to dictate what we paint, or how we paint it. 

3 hours ago, TKenrick said:

also don't think that this line of thinking is particularly helpful in the early stages of learning modes and improvising.

I knew what you meant, I was just being pedantic

Interesting point. I was having this discussion on another thread - if your goal is to play over a chord pattern and connect your brain to the fretboard asap, you're definitely right. But is it "Knowing" modes and understanding their relationships to chords and how to apply the feel of a given mode? 

15 minutes ago, Maude said:

Hmm, I think you've just made it worse. 😁

Haha noted! Definitely not new-agey though, otherwise it'd be an expensive coaster for me, too. 

1 hour ago, stewblack said:

This ☝️ is great. Thank you @csmallett

Shame I don't own any other instruments or I'd make my own backing tracks.

Happy to help. There are plenty on youtube. Here's two which those modes will work over

12 minutes ago, Maude said:

From the reviews, I'm not sold on it. It sounds a bit too 'spiritual journey' for me, and another bassist I'm no fan of. 

But glad you're enjoying it. 🙂

I get why you'd think that. Victor Wooten impresses me, but I couldn't name a song he's played on. It's a fictional story, with music lessons peppered in it. Essentially just creative ideas to try when writing. 

On 20/10/2020 at 11:19, stewblack said:

I want to learn to understand which notes work and why, rather than throwing darts blindfold and hoping to hit the right number. 

Scott Devine, Rick Beato and a European guitarist whose name escapes me have all got great videos covering this. I'll try and find the guitarist's name and send it to you.

The most useful thing I found was in finding out that chords are based upon taking a scale or mode and starting at the root note and going up in thirds. This was a HUGE revelation. I'll explain:

In a C major scale, the root is C, a third up is E, a third up from that is G. There's your basic C major triad (3 note chord). If you go up another third from there, you get the Cmaj7. An even simpler way is by saying take the major scale, and play the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th notes. Boom, Cmaj7. 

All this means, if someone is playing a Cmaj7 chord, you can play the Cmajor scale (Which if you've been practising modes, is also called C Ionian) and this will sound "Homely" because you're playing the thing that chord comes from! But every mode has a corresponding chord. 

If you understand how modes are constructed, you'll know the next mode in the key center of C is D dorian. Taking the root (D), a third up (F), a third up/5th note in the scale (A) and a third up/7th note in the scale (c) makes the chord Dm7. This means playing D dorian will have the appropriate sound over Dm7 because it gave birth to it. 

This goes on all the way up with:

C Maj7 - C ionian
D min7 - D Dorian
E min7 - E Phrygian
F Maj7 - F Lydian
G7        - G Mixolydian
Amin7 - A Aeolian
Bmin7b5 - B Locrian

So start by finding backing tracks based around Cmaj7, and these are the chords that it will HAVE to use if it's a regular, diatonic song. Then work on changing from mode to mode when the chord changes and have some fun. If you're a bass player, the easiest place to start is by learning the arpeggios of each of those chords, and playing those, instead of just noodling and hoping for the best. Those tend to give the "Right" feel for a bassline, and it's also easier to choose between 4 notes rather than 7

Word of warning, there are hundreds of songs which start with a Cmaj7 tonality, and will throw up bizarre chords not covered above which you're not ready for. That's ok, those are just lessons for another day. Don't let that fool you into thinking that you havn't learned everything properly, those songs might be interesting to the ear BECAUSE they're breaking "The rules" of theory. 

All of this means, technically, there IS a type of mode which works best with a type of chord, but the best place to determine that TO BEGIN WITH is knowing which key you're in (I and most of the internet use C major as the example), and working off the modes of that accordingly, not simply trying to pair up ALL minor chords to one type of mode, and ALL major chords to another. Can this be done? Yes, and it's what your website will have been doing for you, but that's sprinting before walking when it comes to modes. They can seem daunting, and with all the maths flying around it can seem insurmountable, but trust me, it REALLY isn't, and there are lots of great resources out there, just make sure you fully understand one thing before moving onto the next. 

On 14/10/2020 at 21:49, TKenrick said:

Since D dorian, C ionian and G mixolydian are all the same scale

But they're not. They have all the same notes, just not necessarily in the same order

Personally, I really enjoyed "The Music Lesson" by Victor Wooten

If you like binaural beats (and don't suffer with heart issues or seizures) 

Aside from that, I like GoGo Penguin. Instrumental post-jazz. Keeps me on edge!

Biffy Clyro jumps out immediately! Doesn't sound right sung in any other accent 

36 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

I'd never heard that parable before. Just googled it - very good! Thanks.

No problem! That one really stuck with me - I love the idea of prioritising happiness over the long-term. 

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

maybe I'm just too old.

Certainly not!

I think that's closer to Jeff Berlin's approach when learning an instrument. He talks about how when people decide to play recreational golf or tennis, they almost always have lessons to learn how to do it properly, and don't just jump in with both feet and start swinging. It's a compelling argument. 

I lean more towards the Victor Wooten/Adam Neely view of acquiring music like a language. A baby doesn't need to know that English is a subject-verb-object language, or what past participles are to start learning and using it. They just start making noises and pick up the rules when they hit a roadblock. 

Also, coming from a background in fitness/strength and conditioning, consistency is the most important part of any practice routine, so who cares if people have their desert before their main course as long as they keep eating  

We all definitely agree that tabs don't teach anything other than how to play (an approximation of) a song, but with a teacher, I'm sure you'll be learning functional harmony when it makes sense to

I also find this

8 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

All those frets, strings, numbers and patterns are crutches

contradicts this

4 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Do you do any exercises at all which use notes, in whatever form, such as scales

As those were the "Patterns" I was referring to

7 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Playing tunes and songs is fine, and is, indeed, the End Game

This reminds me a little of the parable of the Mexican fisherman

13 hours ago, Triumph_Rock said:

Thanks for the great hints and tips guys, they are really helpful.

The issue I'm having, is not being dependant on the tab, and completely memorising the song to memory, and then playing it through with out making any mistakes.

I think the route for me to go down, is not to learn via tab, which isn't normally 100% correct anyway. So I think the route for me is to learn via ear. Being very green to learning bass, this may be a hard skill to pick up in the beginning, but I imagine will pay for itself in the future.

So I think I might try and find some audio software for my laptop, which can alter the tempo of the song to slow it down, and maybe if possible isolate the bass line. Anybody know any good software for this?

 

Finding a way to fully isolate an instrument from a mixed recording is nearly impossible and not worth the effort. Have a google for *song isolated bass track on youtube and then slow it down using youtubes playback and if it's a popular song, you might be lucky and find a video like the one that's been posted above for you!

If you're as new to learning the instrument as you say, it could just be a time-served thing. I'd (controversially) say stick with the tab, and work on being able to play each section without looking at the tab. Practise each section and memorise the shapes and pay attention to patterns on the neck that you're playing. If you're brand new to the instrument, it might feel like you're hitting various frets with no rhyme or reason, but the bass guitar is a highly geometric instrument, and you'll pick these things up over time, the more songs you learn. Does the tab rarely have you playing frets right next to each other? Perhaps you play 5-7-9 (all odd numbers, all with dots on the fretboard) but not even numbers? There's a reason for this, so pay attention, and see what landmarks you can see on the fretboard. Frets have dots on so you know where you are. Don't be afraid to use them. 

Learning by ear is an AMAZING skill to be able to have and opens up a whole other world of improvisation later on, but it's a steep learning curve at the beginning, as there are several places to play the same note and only one will be right, depending on where you've just been playing, where you're going to play next, and the timbre (texture) of the note that you're looking for. It can be frustrating as hell, especially at the beginning - At the beginning of learning stringed instruments, I once spent 30 minutes figuring out the first 4 notes of Californication on guitar, and then immediately realised "Oh. That's just an A-minor arpeggio". If I'd have spotted the pattern sooner, it would have sped things up for me, and I could easily have got bored and given up at minute 25. 

I'm saying this to reduce barriers to your playing. When looking for solutions, it can be tempted to try things that seem logical, but are actually much more long-winded when the best advice is to keep doing what you're already doing. 

Some important questions I'd ask if you were my student are:

Keep listening to the song. Do you know the words? Could you sing along to it on the radio? If you can, you know the order of the sections, it's just learning how the bassline sounds throughout. 

If not, it could be better to learn how the song ebbs and flows and what section bleeds into another.

Can you sing the bassline throughout? If not, you'll have to commit that to memory first. Learning something on an intsrument without knowing how it SHOULD sound is essentially playing a game of bop-it (Google it) for 5 minutes, where you're just trying to commit random movements to memory with no rhyme or reason. That's a LOOOOOOOT more difficult than learning the positions for sounds you already know. 

Do you know what the common sections are called? intro/verse/pre-chorus/chorus/bridge/middle 8/outro?

If you can answer these, we can probably help find what it is that's tripping you up.

Also, don't stress yourself out by playing along with the song (If you are). It's more important to take the time to learn it at whatever speed works for you, then get it to the correct speed when you know what you're playing. That's a lot easier than working on each section and getting it up to speed, and will compound your memory of the song. 

One thing I think that's been missed out, is can you sing/hum the bass part? 

Work on being able to sing along with your internal voice, and you'll find everything else a LOT easier. Then you'll have memorised the bassline itself, then when you've learned which fret makes which note and which position to play it in, you'll KNOW what it should sound like, and it'll speed things up dramatically. 

I don't think it's any surprise that you can play the intro (And I'll bet you could sing it) as it's melodically probably the most interesting part of the song, and gets it's time to shine in the song. I know it's the part I hum along to. 

16 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

It's no wonder that he didn't get the guitar gig, then..! 

Beat me to it! 

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

It was an interesting question and an interesting read. Reassuring that most bassists playing covers adopt the same strategies that I have. You have to be on top of the feel and structure of the original but adapt your line to the band you are working with and your own skill set. I've only ever played in covers bands and at the peak probably had 150 songs with three bands that I might have to play at a moments notice. Between them we'd be learning maybe 3 or 4 new songs at any one time so you have in any case to have strategies just for coping. Don't let people see your feet furiously paddling under the water

'Beginners thing' is too pejorative. It's a learning thing I tried to learn the note for note bassline to 'Son Of A Preacher Man' recently, I didn't succeed because in the end the band just needed to get on with it but it taught me a lot about how a fairly simple pattern can add to a bass line and forcing myself out of the same old same old has freed up the way I play other songs too. There's loads to learn from other people's bass lines. we are all beginners

That’s exactly my attitude, and why I've been so surprised by responses. I liken it to transcribing a jazz solo to understand what's happening harmonically, and get a feel for the shapes and style of players at different points in their careers. 

Such an iconic instrument in THE iconic colour scheme! Have a bump! 

These are really interesting responses. When playing live, obviously the answer is "It depends" - I'm surprised by how few people learn things for the fun of it. Maybe that's more of a beginners thing?

On 28/07/2020 at 08:38, cheddatom said:

I think these are better examples of Rocco working with Yussef Dayes, who is one of the most exciting drummers out there

 

I was just reading through here to see if anyone had posted "Love is the message" - Can't get enough of this at the moment!

With the big London resurgence in jazz  - Joe Armon-Jones, The Ezra Collective, Yussef Dayes etc - They're not exactly short of bass players with whom to play, so I'm guessing it's more about clicking with the right people and enjoying how they play. Dayes isn't getting press because his bass player shares 50% of his DNA with a famous session musician; he's part of a wave. So Rocco stands out to US because he's playing with Yussef Dayes, and we just happen to recognise his surname. 

Therein lies the pressure of having a name to live up to - Nepotism until proven otherwise. 

On 28/07/2020 at 08:38, cheddatom said:

I think these are better examples of Rocco working with Yussef Dayes, who is one of the most exciting drummers out there

 

I was just reading through here to see if anyone had posted "Love is the message" - Can't get enough of this at the moment!

With the big London resurgence in jazz  - Joe Armon-Jones, The Ezra Collective, Yussef Dayes etc - They're not exactly short of bass players with whom to play, so I'm guessing it's more about clicking with the right people and enjoying how they play. Dayes isn't getting press because his bass player shares 50% of his DNA with a famous session musician; he's part of a wave. So Rocco stands out to US because he's playing with Yussef Dayes, and we just happen to recognise his surname. 

Therein lies the pressure of having a name to live up to - Nepotism until proven otherwise. 

Congrats!

The vintage instrument market has taken a hit, but that happens in every area during a time of economic downturn. It's a buyer's market at the moment.