Passive PA wedges ?

[hamfist]

Just interested in this.

I am a recent returner to bass after many years on guitar, and have just been using a Line 6 HD400 head for the last couple of months. I have tried it into my TC ELectronic RS112 and also my cheapo Studiospares 12" passive PA wedge (250W, 8 ohm). I have to say that the wedge is a little more middy than the RS but still acquits itself very well indeed. In fact I'd say the wedge cuts through a tad better with the band. Putting both 8 ohm cabs together onto the amp gives a great sound. After over 25 years in bands and recording etc I also like to think that I have a good ear for tone.
Oh, .... Received a Little Mark III today, and it also sounds awesome through the PA wedge.

Given that these wedges (and I assume other relatively budget brands) retail new at £120, that's a very good comparison to a 1 x 12 bass cab. There's also no lack of bass whatsoever through this wedge.
Oh, and there's also the benefit that I can use it upright, or as a wedge, facing me.

Why are passive PA cabs therefore not more popular given the great price to spec compared to bass cabs ?

I also suspect that they can be picked up used for mere pennies too.

[shizznit]

I'm not a PA expert, but passive monitors are cheaper and lighter and a lot of people try their best to keep the cost of a PA down as much as possible...a decent one is bloody expensive!

Be careful though. Not all foldback monitors work well with bass especially at high volumes. Some are full range with tweeters and will fry as soon as you feed the bass and drums through it. That's why my engineer sets up a basic but very strong 212 monitor with two massive front ports for my use only, but it's designed for drum monitoring and doesn't have a tweeter. Foldback monitors are there to help you hear the rest of the band for reference...not as a backline rig. It's not down to me to advise you not to use them, but if you chose to do this take it easy as the drivers may not be strong enough to cope as the monitor might be designed for vocals and light instruments only.

[Phil Starr]

just for balance I'm going to make the other argument. Because these are mass produced items they are often very good value for money. The 12" speaker is designed for bass frequencies so it is no more likely to fail with bass than a 12" unit in a bass cab at the same price point. In fact the bass unit is designed to crossover at 1.6-3KHz so in some ways it is a more specialist bass driver than the ones in bass cabs. Just like cheap bass cabs the excursion may be limited but not so in the better quality cabs.

The biggest factor is the sound. PA cabs try to be neutral, flat frequency and low distortion. Some bass cabs do the same but some are deliberately coloured. You either like the coloured sound or not, it is a matter of taste.

If you are using decent monitors then the chances are you also have a decent PA. If this can provide the bass that the audience hear then you don't need huge volume on stage to be picked up by the vocal mics. Having an angled cab pointed at your ears means you will hear yourself better too. It is win win.

I've been amazed at the quality of cheap PA speakers. Recently I took apart one of the Maplin ones. There was a decent magnet on the bass driver, a proper dynamic horn driver, good quality crossover components and the plywood cab was well braced. It met the specs they gave as far as I could measure them.

[shizznit]

All very true and I am not disagreeing with you, but monitors are not designed or built in the same way as instrument speakers. Bass guitar speakers are tuned and voiced very differently and I have had that lesson told to me by both an amp manufacturer and sound engineers. I have played through a HK 10" fold back monitor worth 1k that was pumping out more kick drum that I could handle from 4m away, so it always comes down to purpose and engineering. Take for example (this is relative)...my near field monitors are rated at 40w and I could pick up a practice amp that is also rated at 40w. What will sound better and be more powerful? Well, the nearfield monitors would sound better naturally because they are designed for clarity and flat response, but the practice would be louder and clip less because the driver is designed to deal with the intended frequencies.

Bass players tend to have more rhythm section mixed in their monitors than other instruments. I can't stand having my horn section through my monitors and I sometimes don't even like the guitar in there either. I used to use the same monitors as the rest of the band (apart from the drummer), but the kick was breaking up and the tweeter was distorting because my mix for the drums is much higher than the other guys monitors. Our sound guy has been in the business for a long time and has a huge rig. We switched to one of the 212 monitors that the drummer uses and problem solved. Why? Because its designed for fast and low frequencies. If you put the same monitor in front of the singers they would freak immediately because it won't deliver what they want to hear clearly.

Okay...I'm fibbing a bit...I do disagree with one thing (sorry!). Having a speaker angled to improve bass projection simply doesn't happen. Bass works from the ground up because of acoustic resonance. That's why bass bins live on the floor and tops...well...live on top! Not once have I ever seen bass bins above or in line of the audience.

Okay...onto in ear monitors now...

(only kidding!)

Edited January 18, 2012 by shizznit

[hamfist]

Hmmm. Interesting points. For the moment the wedge I am using as my bass cab at rehearsals is working a treat. No farting, distortion or any nasty side-effects. I can't imagine I'll have any other real use for it, so I'm not too worried about damaging it.
In the long term I expect I will add a second "proper" bass cab and retire the wedge, but for the moment it's definately doing a job for me, and I don't mind schlepping it around, banging it about etc, as it has a tough as nails plastic outer, and it is saving use, and wear on my RS112, which I will add in to the rig for gigs only.

Also, just a comment on the "wedges angled up are no real use for bass" idea. SUrely, the actual frequencies that cut through, and also tell us as a player what note we are playing, are not the real bass frequencies, but much more in the midrange, so surely angling the cab up at you does significantly help you hear those key frequencies, despite having no effect on our hearing of the real low bass frequencies.

[LawrenceH]

It's a bit trite but tone is indeed in the mids. Monitors can do a fine job of bass reproduction often using identical drivers to many bass cabs but usually with better crossover/tweeter implementations for a given price. As always though, you get what you pay for. If you want really heavy bass then you need dedicated high-excursion woofers...but look around and most of these are actually designed as PA drivers. Alternatively acres of speaker or a more exotic speaker design will do it! Again, the latter at least is more often seen in PA.
Main disadvantage of angled monitors for bass IMO is that they reduce cab internal volume for a given footprint. Often worth it to hear yourself clearly though

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='shizznit' timestamp='1326912854' post='1503719']


Okay...I'm fibbing a bit...I do disagree with one thing (sorry!). Having a speaker angled to improve bass projection simply doesn't happen. Bass works from the ground up because of acoustic resonance. That's why bass bins live on the floor and tops...well...live on top! Not once have I ever seen bass bins above or in line of the audience.



[/quote]

Because of the way we perceive sound most of what we hear as 'bass' is actually contained in the higher frequencies. We are so rubbish at hearing low frequencies and so good at hearing mid range that Lawrence is right, differences in tone are all in the mids. The information that makes say, picks sound different from fingers, Rotosounds different from flats and nearly all the differences you get from your touch on the strings are down what we hear of the higher harmonics. All speakers are directional at any frequency whose wavelength is shorter than the diameter. So bass players need to point their speakers at their ears just like other musicians.