Buckminster Emptier

On 12/10/2022 at 02:39, BigRedX said:

On the whole the reasons why power attenuators never mention the use with bass amps, is that most of them can't handle the output of a typical bass amp. They are generally designed for guitarists with all-valve 50-100W amps who don't need the ridiculous volume that they produce but do want the sound of the overdriven valves in the power-amp. We'll conveniently ignore the fact that speaker break-up which is also usually associated with this type of overdriven sound is at best reduced when a power attenuator is used.

 

To give you an idea of how hard power attenuators have to work when used with relatively low wattage amps here's a real-life example from my personal experience. I also play guitar and have a very nice Hughes & Kettner 50W all-valve combo, which I am able to run at sensible volumes using a Marshall Power-Break between the power amp and the speaker. The Power-Break is a large heavy device full of high-power resistors and inductors and a big temperature-controlled fan to cool them. Any sound with more than gentle overdrive (especially when I use either a phaser or flanger) will cause this fan to go into overdrive. Remember that this fan is powered completely by the output of the amplifier - nothing else. At the end of a typical 45 minute set the Power-Brake is close to being too hot to touch and has to be left until last so that it is cool enough to pack away. That's just from attenuating a 50W valve amp down to the same level of something around 20W. Now try and imagine what you would need for your typical bass amp.

 

And as has already been said the only benefit from having a power attenuator is to be able to run the output valves hotter than your normal playing volume would allow. Since the amp in question has a class D output stage you'll get no benefit from it. The JHS Black Box is designed to be used with valve amps that don't have a master volume control. It is not a power attenuator. I can't help but feel that if you ain't able to get a suitable overdriven sound out of your amp at low volumes, then you haven't set it up correctly. Maybe @agedhorse can help?

It's not like it's some mystery of how to set the amp up. You plug the amp into the speaker cabinet. It's set up. 

I can crank the gain  all the way to 10 and I have to turn it up to a volume so loud the amp head shakes off the cabinet to get even the smallest amount of grit on the signal. 

Well then how do you get the goddamn thing to overdrive?  That's the whole reason I bought it, its advertised as having a tube gain stage that gives it the grit of classic Mesa tube amps. I find that to be very misleading. It's an $1200 amp and it has two almost identical channels, neither of which distort or have any kind of overdrive to them. What's the point? 

I've really had it with this amp. Now I'm gonna have to sell it and loose a few hundred on the purchase. 

Is there a bass amp with actual overdrive, not dark glass digital cow poop but real overdrive?

On 12/10/2022 at 07:48, fretmeister said:

Definitely do not use it on a TT800.

 

As with all solid state power section amps the master volume is easy to control, and any preamp drive will be controlled by the gain control.

 

As said - they are for valve power sections ONLY, and the number of bass amps with valve power sections is really small, and even then the highest capacity attenuator I've ever seen for a guitar amp is 150W, which is far lower than you'd need for a big bass amp.

 

The main reason why you don't see them for bass amps is

 

1: Because even valve power section bass amps really don't need them

2: There's no market for them.

 

 

According to the TT 800 manual the boogie channel is a tube power amp. Isn't that what it means when it has a tube driven gain stage?

On 12/10/2022 at 19:08, agedhorse said:

Correct, these amps are WAY too much power for any commercially available power attenuator on the market.

 

Also, some attenuators are NOT isolated from common signal ground, which means that on a bridged (BLT) amp, it's possible to short 1/2 of the amp and damage it. No tube guitar amp has this configuration, so a common ground won't hurt anything (except may be a little noisy)

Your manual for the TT 800 says it has two channels, one is class D and one is all tube. Is this not correct? If it's not then your manual is extremely misleading. These guys are saying it is strictly a class D amp, that's not what the manual says. 

I understand now that it has too much power for an attenuator. It's too bad really because I can't get the signal to distort without turning it way the he'll up. Is this any different at 4 ohm?  I'm running at 8 ohms. The only time I can get it to distort is through headphones. I thought the point of the Boogie channel is that it is a tube amp, you're sposed to get an overdrive gritty sound. I can only get that with it turned very loud so I assumed an attenuator would help.

 The manual goes on and on about its over driven signal, but I don't get that much. I have a rickenbacher. When I dig in it will distort a little but I think that's actually the bass pickups and not your amp. 

On 12/10/2022 at 02:39, BigRedX said:

On the whole the reasons why power attenuators never mention the use with bass amps, is that most of them can't handle the output of a typical bass amp. They are generally designed for guitarists with all-valve 50-100W amps who don't need the ridiculous volume that they produce but do want the sound of the overdriven valves in the power-amp. We'll conveniently ignore the fact that speaker break-up which is also usually associated with this type of overdriven sound is at best reduced when a power attenuator is used.

 

To give you an idea of how hard power attenuators have to work when used with relatively low wattage amps here's a real-life example from my personal experience. I also play guitar and have a very nice Hughes & Kettner 50W all-valve combo, which I am able to run at sensible volumes using a Marshall Power-Break between the power amp and the speaker. The Power-Break is a large heavy device full of high-power resistors and inductors and a big temperature-controlled fan to cool them. Any sound with more than gentle overdrive (especially when I use either a phaser or flanger) will cause this fan to go into overdrive. Remember that this fan is powered completely by the output of the amplifier - nothing else. At the end of a typical 45 minute set the Power-Brake is close to being too hot to touch and has to be left until last so that it is cool enough to pack away. That's just from attenuating a 50W valve amp down to the same level of something around 20W. Now try and imagine what you would need for your typical bass amp.

 

And as has already been said the only benefit from having a power attenuator is to be able to run the output valves hotter than your normal playing volume would allow. Since the amp in question has a class D output stage you'll get no benefit from it. The JHS Black Box is designed to be used with valve amps that don't have a master volume control. It is not a power attenuator. I can't help but feel that if you ain't able to get a suitable overdriven sound out of your amp at low volumes, then you haven't set it up correctly. Maybe @agedhorse can help?

The amp I'm talking about is the Mesa TT 800. It has two channels, one is class D and one is driven by all tubes. For that channel both pre amp and power amp and effects loop all driven by tubes isn't that what it means to have a tube driven gain stage? 

On 11/10/2022 at 23:47, Skybone said:

Attenuators should work for both guitar and bass amps, AFAIK, they only regulate the signal being sent from the power amp to the cab.

 

However, they should only be used on amps that have a Valve driven power amp section. A quick Google search of the Mesa TT800, shows that it's a Class D power amp, so therefore you don't actually need an attenuator. The TT only has valves in the pre-amp (3x 12AT7). 

 

The attenuator works to maximise the signal into the valve power amp, but reduces the signal into the cab, without damaging the transformers & power valves in the amp. It allows the power amp to be driven into distortion, which is a smoother and clearer sound than pre-amp distortion, which is "spiky" and can make the sound somewhat "mushy".

 

Basically, you don't need an attenuator unless you're using an amp with a valve power amp stage.

The mesa tt 800 has two channels, one is a all tube amp, one is a class d amp. It says it has a tube driven gain stage. Isn't that a tube amp? 

Does anyone use one of these? I was thinking of buying one but the only ones I see on the market are for guitar amps. I can't find one that mentions it works for a bass amp in its description, and all the reviews I see online are from guitar players. It seems lntuitive  that it would work for both, but I can't seem to confirm that. 

I am thinking of buying it for  a Mesa TT800 by the way. It's sounds great when loud but doesn't overdrive when you turn it low. 

The one I'm looking at is JHS Black Box and it works by putting it in the FX loop, which is what sets it apart from the more expensive ones on the market. It really is a lot cheaper

On 10/10/2022 at 00:41, Cosmo Valdemar said:

I haven't implied anything about where you're from, I didn’t know you were American.

 

Doesn't change anything. 

 

Someone else expressed their opinion about some bands, to which you replied that they weren't authorised to discuss the subject. 

You called someone else's opinion 'hilarious'.

 

And then you get offended by my 'don't be daft' - which, trust me, is really not an offensive comment. 

 

Don't come on here all guns blazing only to cry bullying when people disagree with you.

No guns  blazing.Thats kind of blowing things out of proportion, which is what you guys did yesterday.  I simply criticized a band you like, and said that if you group Creed with SOAD you don't have any authority on the subject. And I stand by that. And you guys act like that's the worst thing any wild American ever said here. I wasn't trolling you I was  participating  in a discussion in which someone already said "all of those bands your name suck"

how is what I said any worse? You either have very sensitive skin or you don't like Americans or there has to be some other reason you can't handle someone not insulting  you at all, just saying you dont know what Nu Metal is  

And sorry it was your buddy who made the comment about Americans. You guys were teaming up on me and I got confused. Three of you went on the attack , calling me a daft wild American, and a troll. One guy went to looking up my other posts to make a case against me. All because I said that if you think Creed and SOAD are the same type of music you don't really have authority to talk about this. That's nothing man. Go back and read that stinky poo you guys did way more in the way if attacking me. Mine wasn't even an attack, I expected you to say " oh I guess you're right I hate all 90s music " to which I would have said " can't say I blame you but Creed is Def not Nu Metal, however Limp Biscuit is the epitome of Nu Metal" Nothing Trollish about it.

On 10/10/2022 at 11:00, StickyDBRmf said:

I'm American & they don't bugger me. Then again I play Chapman Stick so they don't know what to make of me.

I wouldn't think they'd bugger you if you say things like bugger, you fit right in.

On 10/10/2022 at 11:16, SteveXFR said:

 

Have you tried bring nicer to them? Maybe if you give them some romance then they will.

You have to rub them the right way, that's what the one guy said.  

On 10/10/2022 at 01:56, Barking Spiders said:

 

 

I've read all this 'Limp Bizkit' suck stuff which seemed to happen after the Chocolate Starfish album came out, and only then did they become rock's fave whipping boys along with Nickelback. Seems to me all this hate for these bands along with Coldplay and a few others is just bandwagon jumping without any substance. Any criticism you can level against LB and Nickelback can easily be said of '000s more. I used to see loads of 90s metal/hard rock bands on MTV or heard the kids or mrs playing them so I do know what I'm talking about.  BTW for my wife's sake I took to her Sonisphere 2014 (mainly for her to see Metallica) and Download (as SOAD is a fave band of hers also). I saw LB at Sonisphere and they were by far the best act of the festival. Great crowd report and they got everyone moving. The likes of Deftones, Mastodon and other 'respected' bands were as dull as f***.

The reason Limp Biscuit sucks is because the guy is a terrible rapper and his voice is all wheezy or like squeaky. I don't know exactly what youre talking about, I don't  doubt it, but I hated that band the first day I heard them and still do.  In fact they are the reason Nu Metal sucks, singlehandedly. Even Korn had one good album, but Limp Biscuit is terrible. And the icing on the cake is if you know what the name means, it's flipping disgusting. 

Mastodon = not Nu Metal, that's just metal

Def tones = maybe someone could say they influenced Nu Metal but they were out years before there was any talk of Nu Metal. 

I saw Mastodon  open for Clutch in a venue with maybe 500 capacity max. I had no idea who they were, this was like late 90s. It was a great show. 
 

5 hours ago, Cosmo Valdemar said:

Actually, looking at your other posts on here suggests you might be trolling. You called the members of Talkbass 'buttholes' - perhaps it was just your confrontational manner that rubbed them up the wrong way?

I didn't call them butt holes that's just what the site  fills in. And people are doing nothing but expressing their opinion, I express mine and I'm a troll. 

I don't need to look at your other posts because I'm not the one making personal attacks. That sounds kinda trollish to me, all I did was say Limp Biscuit sucks, I'm shocked anyone  I defending them.

You've both called me a troll and implied something about where I'm from. And called me daft, whatever the hell that is, it sounds a lot like an insult.

I've only expressed an opinion about a band.

And I'm the troll. I think you just don't like Americans, and that's why you are bullying me

You said something negative about SOAD right after the other guy said he liked them. Isn't that what you are now calling me a troll over?

By the way every band you guys are talking about are "wild Americans". 

You guys sure know how to make a guy feel welcome. If you look at my other post I wasn't trolling anyone, that's just what you've made me into so you have a license to bully the new American. So when your moderator comes along he sees troll  and thinks you re defending yourself. Been there and done that. If you don't want Americans in your exclusive club you can just say so. Well, I guess you have, haven't you? 

3 hours ago, Cosmo Valdemar said:

Don't be daft. You can have disdain for a particular musical style but still appreciate the odd song.

 

 

 

From Limp  Biscuit though? 

Names all the bands who aren't Nu Metal as the example of why it sucks, then picks the epitome of new metal and give it a pass. That's all I'm saying. 

4 hours ago, Barking Spiders said:

Never mind just being a low point in metal, it's one of the lowest points in music ever. I still have a soft spot for the occasional Limp Bizkit track but the rest of the scene was utter pants and in the UK we never exposed to the worst of it on national radio.  Unfortunately, MTV gave way too much broadcast time to some truly terrible bands. I'm not a metal  / hard rock fan and not being too hung up on sub-sub genres I lump together the likes of Korn, Creed, Staind, Five Finger Death Punch, Disturbed, Evanscence, Godsmack, Shinedown, Nickelback, Three Days Grace, Taking Back Sunday, Daughtry and Audioslave and SOAD.  I'm only able able to name these as my mrs and her offspring all like this kinda thing.  I even had to see some of these at Download, which was a very tough day for me. God forbid we ever see a resurgence of this stuff.

How can you talk stinky poo about the scene but say you have a soft spot for Limp Biscuit, thats like the epitome of the genre and the very worst of it all. That's hilarious, that's like saying you don't mind taking heroin once in a while but you can't stand people who  take drugs. Haha.. I'm not trying to be a Richard but come on ; let's have at least a little self awareness when we are criticizing.

2 hours ago, Barking Spiders said:

Never mind just being a low point in metal, it's one of the lowest points in music ever. I still have a soft spot for the occasional Limp Bizkit track but the rest of the scene was utter pants and in the UK we never exposed to the worst of it on national radio.  Unfortunately, MTV gave way too much broadcast time to some truly terrible bands. I'm not a metal  / hard rock fan and not being too hung up on sub-sub genres I lump together the likes of Korn, Creed, Staind, Five Finger Death Punch, Disturbed, Evanscence, Godsmack, Shinedown, Nickelback, Three Days Grace, Taking Back Sunday, Daughtry and Audioslave and SOAD.  I'm only able able to name these as my mrs and her offspring all like this kinda thing.  I even had to see some of these at Download, which was a very tough day for me. God forbid we ever see a resurgence of this stuff.

If you are lumping together SOAD with Creed you really shouldn't be authorized to discuss this subject. You're basically lumping together any rock band to come out in the 90s. Actually on second thought, if you take SOAD out and maybe Audioslave we could let the rest slide.

At the time Nu Metal was popular, my brother once responded to my criticism of it by saying "I think it sucks too, but on the other hand, and for what it's worth, bands like Korn are the only thing keeping metal alive right now."

“For what it’s worth “ was indeed a good question .

My only other comment is psychic,  since it hasn't been said yet... I don't think it's fair to blame Faith No More for Nu Metal, that's something like blaming Gil Scott Heron for Vanilla Ice. Or if that reference is too obscure, maybe you'd prefer.... blaming Black Sabbath for Marilyn Manson....blaming the Ramones for Green Day....blaming Herbie Hancock for Herbie Hancock - wait, I may need to check my math on that last one. 

10 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

 

If you are saying that Malone is a fretless only player, which I'm not sure about, but if he is, then another band you should have listed is Gordian Knot. I remember one Gordian Knot song that was certainly fretless, but maybe it was all fretless and I just didn't notice it, it's been a while.

3 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

That seems oddly specific!

 

Don't worry I don't have a sister. No comment on the former.

4 hours ago, Bolo said:

It's going to be great. 

Slap them on but, as we saw above that the tension on the neck is slightly lower with heavier strings, the neck my straighten out a bit over time (see below). If the strings start giving fret buzz take the bass to a local luthier or knowledgeable BC member to tweak the truss rod a little.

 

Cool thanks Alot that's what I need to know

The best places to look for a drummer:

There may be one sleeping on your couch. Or up under your girlfriend. 

Drummers are kinda like that. 
 

Or you could go to a place that has practice studios, wait for one to get thirsty, then knock him out by slamming the toilet seat down on his head, throw him in your trunk and take him home. 

On 21/09/2022 at 10:55, Bunion said:

 

That is just the guy to play it. I don't know which makes me cringe more, that bass, or this you tube guy. I watched a few of his videos once and it gave me this strange, really just awful feeling, like the come down from doing a quarter ounce of cocaine plus how you would feel the next day after getting drunk and accidentally having sex with your sister. Sorry for that, it's just that the dude makes me cringe in a way I don't know how to explain.  I can't be the only one, right? God I hope not, because then everyone is gonna think I'm the weird one for saying that. All I can say is it takes some really creepy images to describe such a weird and obnoxious dude, but I'm really sorry if I grossed anyone out, I just had to get that off my chest.

8 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

I wondered about that briefly when I saw the thread title. However, MDP doesn't have the ability to self-examine necessary to ask others whether something might be a good idea.

 

With apologies to the OP, MDP is well known to this parish as a "modifier" of electric stringed instruments, primarily basses. It's fair to say he has what might best be described as issues, not least of which is an unshakeable belief in the rightness of his, er, innovations. We don't mention him by name for fear of being accused of being discriminatory. 

I think for the reason you said , I am not that guy. and just cuz that isn’t me, I don’t tinker with things, I just play. 

I am basically asking this because I have a predicament. I had not played bass for nearly 10 years, didn’t even own one, then I decided I wanted to start playing again. So I bought a bass I really liked, one I had always wanted back in the day. But for some reason , I don’t know why, but I thought it would be cool to go back to playing a 4 string. I thought it would be, I don’t know, like starting all the way over, and something like that appealed to me. It was a really dumb idea, I had played a 5 string for all but the first few years, and I just cannot be without a B string now.

So I’m trying to cope with a bad decision and I thought this may be a solution, and maybe a kind of cool one at that. I thought of how losing the G string would cause me to lower certain riffs , which I though would be better than where I am now, where I’m force to play higher for certain riffs, you know, stuff that can’t be changed up without totally messing up how it’s best to play it. 
 

there you go , a novel about why I’m asking a weird question. The end.
 

On 25/09/2022 at 23:03, Bolo said:

Fit the strings first, to see if anything at all needs to be done. Then let it sit a day or two to see if any part needs tweaking.

What is likely to happen? Like I honestly don’t  know anything about working on a bass except how to change the strings . I assumed changing the strings could change the tension, but i really don’t even know what would happen , I guess the action of the string would be too high , but then what would I do? I guess I’d try adjusting the bridge and if that failed I’d assume it’s the truss rod that needs adjustment?
 

Despite playing for the last 30 years I’m suddenly aware of how little I know about this, haha. I’ve never had anything to wrong, but then , I haven’t really changed anything  on it, you know, I just play the damn thing 

.

5 hours ago, BreadBin said:

I would definitely file open the nut slot first - I've had one break before by not doing so.

Good to know. I was hoping not to have to do it as not to depreciate the bass, I haven't had it very long, but I should just commit to it and do what I want with it I think.