Lending Gear at gigs

[bumfrog]

[quote name='D-L-B' post='861115' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:38 PM']By removing the 'promoter' and running an equivalent event yourself this shouldn't be an issue.[/quote]

what the fact that instead of paying nothing to play (through a promoter as they book the place and take the hit, and also the profit), you may end up out of pocket (running it yourself)? Not sure how that works to be honest.

[D-L-B]

[quote name='bumfrog' post='861118' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:41 PM']what the fact that instead of paying nothing to play (through a promoter as they book the place and take the hit, and also the profit), you may end up out of pocket (running it yourself)? Not sure how that works to be honest.[/quote]
simple maths really, the profit being skimmed by the promoter doesn't need to be deducted.

[bumfrog]

[quote name='D-L-B' post='861120' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:42 PM']simple maths really, the profit being skimmed by the promoter doesn't need to be deducted.[/quote]

eh?? I think you're still missing the point....

the simple maths is if you hire a place yourself and can't cover the costs of hiring it then you're out of pocket.

If you play a gig for a promoter, you may not get any money for playing, but you won't be out of pocket.

Admittedly it can work the other way, but there's a lot of lazy people out there not willing to risk taking the hit.

[D-L-B]

You do know it is in your best interests to play the best night possible? Whether it's organised by yourself or a promoter.
From what I can gather, you're a lazy person or you only play gigs for lazy promoters? Sucks to be you

Edited June 8, 2010 by D-L-B

[urbanx]

[quote]like I say, depends where you live. In some places the only venues are run like that, so you don't have much chance.

Plus it also depends on how much a venue is charging to hire out. If it's expensive, you may not make the money back on the door, thus it's costing you to play. Not the best scenario to be in.[/quote]

We have hired this venue in question before, and they run a clever system: Venue & Tech hire (you have to use theirs) is £280. Venue capacity is 50 (plus bands). You cant really charge more than £5 for a venue that size...

So even if you sell out it'll cost you £30...

[bumfrog]

[quote name='D-L-B' post='861133' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:50 PM']You do know it is in your best interests to play the best night possible? Whether it's organised by yourself or a promoter.[/quote]

It's not always possible to play "the best nights" as some people have other ties than a band.

[quote name='D-L-B' post='861133' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:50 PM']From what I can gather, you're a lazy person or you only play gigs for lazy promoters? [/quote]

no, you were asking why people play gigs like that and I was telling you why.

from what you gather? you've decided to make a massive assumption about me even though you don't know me from adam??? I hope you don't do this everybody because I find it quite offensive when people make assumptions about people they know nothing about. Sorry for being shirty but it's a personal bug bear of mine given that I organise a lot of gigs, put up my own equipment as backline to try and get things up and running and the apathy that I get from both punters and bands alike is astounding, then come on here to be told I'm lazy!

I really don't get some people on here sometimes.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='51m0n' post='861086' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:23 PM']Why do you need more than 10 minutes for a changeover of gear??

I've been in bands on the original circuit and we could change the entire two bands' gear out (inc drums) and line check within ten minutes.

You have to know what you are about, you have to be prepared to do it, you need a decent sound guy.

It can certainly be done, 10 minutes is a long time, you do also need somewhere to ferry the other gear to off stage, sinice this is stage one though, you can leave band a to pack down that kit whilst band b is doing their line check.

I've never been to a gig where the audiemce went home because the next band took 15 minutes to start....[/quote]

Hmmm, yeh, my old band could set up in about 5 minutes flat but i've never seen another band get off stage quicker than 10 minutes, and no, i'm not exaggerrating.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Bison' post='861069' date='Jun 8 2010, 02:58 PM']I never let anybody use my gear, but then again I don't borrow anybody's either, unless it's provided as backline of course.[/quote]


Incidentally do you ever ask where the supplied backline came from?
Maybe some other poor bassist on the bill is "lending" it to you under pressure from the gig organiser...

I suspect Urbanx is under pressure to comply or not get any more gigs from that venue.
He's already said it's one of only two venues in town that have his kind of gigs so he needs gigs there if he's going to play anywhere...

I think buying the lender amp is a pragmatic solution.
You get to use your real gear, you don't have to lend it to others, the show will go on and you get more gigs at the venue.
With luck and a following wind the promoter may even like you a bit more and give you a better deal next time.

[RhysP]

[quote name='urbanx' post='861144' date='Jun 8 2010, 03:58 PM']We have hired this venue in question before, and they run a clever system: Venue & Tech hire (you have to use theirs) is £280. Venue capacity is 50 (plus bands). You cant really charge more than £5 for a venue that size...

So even if you sell out it'll cost you £30...[/quote]
You're giving yourself all this grief to play in a venue that holds 50 people?
F*** that, it's never worth it.

Edited June 8, 2010 by RhysP

[lemmywinks]

[quote name='RhysP' post='861201' date='Jun 8 2010, 04:48 PM']You're giving yourself all this grief to play in a venue that holds 50 people?
F*** that, it's never worth it.[/quote]

+1

Is this just a pub?

If so i'd like to know where they get the figure of £280 from. I thought we were on about a dedicated venue/club!

[urbanx]

It has a permanant PA, but is essentially the back room of a pub. I don't know where they plucked the figure is from. It's actually £240 as you get £40 back deposit, so my bad. The similar sized venue next door is £170.

[quote]I suspect Urbanx is under pressure to comply or not get any more gigs from that venue.
He's already said it's one of only two venues in town that have his kind of gigs so he needs gigs there if he's going to play anywhere...[/quote]

It's exactly that.

[quote]I think buying the lender amp is a pragmatic solution.
You get to use your real gear, you don't have to lend it to others, the show will go on and you get more gigs at the venue.
With luck and a following wind the promoter may even like you a bit more and give you a better deal next time.[/quote]

It is rubbish I know, but I'm desperate to play gigs, I live for them! As this thread has proved I'll do almost anything for any gig, including buying more backline.

As this one's through a 'promotor' we haven't actually had to pay to play, hence I didn't mind buying a crappy combi (£30).

[rmshaw37]

industry standard for a sound guy is £140, plus if you're borrowing their PA its £100 plus if its their backline you can add another £80!
thats £320 .......... but thats dogs danglys stuff

if its just a PA for a 50 capacity place, surely you can borrow a PA! even a peaveys on sticks sort of PA with the owner of the desk running it, you could pick it up for £50!

we have our own PA for just such occasions, probably cost us £100 out an admag or something similar, 50 capacity venue you wouldnt need more than a 1k pa

and you can definately hire a room out really cheap! loads of pubs now do free venue hire, and for much bigger rooms than 50 folks!

still the backline is the issue, but if you're running it yourself then you can allow changeovers! we've done a couple of gigs in a church, sh*tty sound plus all the expense of a pro sound guy, but massive amounts of room for stashing gear, plus massive capacity! thats a great one to invite younger bands to, as younger bands have all their school friends thinking how cool it is that their mate is even IN a band!

everything is do-able, just depends on if you can be arsed!

(OOH a big church hall is big enough to let off pyrotechnics too!)

[escholl]

[quote name='urbanx' post='861230' date='Jun 8 2010, 05:10 PM']It has a permanant PA, but is essentially the back room of a pub. I don't know where they plucked the figure is from. It's actually £240 as you get £40 back deposit, so my bad. The similar sized venue next door is £170.[/quote]

So, if you were to run the gig yourself, assuming you fill the place with 50 people, and everyone there averages maybe 2 drinks at 3 quid each, the venue is up 540 pounds, while you make a tenner. Def not worth trying to run it yourself then, and I can kind of see why you've done what you have. But I still think that you shouldn't be supplying backline, bringing two amps, etc.... no way.

[OldGit]

all this stress for a 50 capacity?
You probably don't need your proper stuff then, just take the new/old poo combo

[JTUK]

quite depressing reading, really...

you'll go through all this to get a gig...??

Someone is taking the piss... and you are letting them.

The venue has a limit of 50 people... ??

The promoter has £250 to play with..as all those bands must pretty much fill the places...and the venue gets the bar..????

See if you can take this deal to a pub with a backroom..
Tell him you'll fill up his pub..and do the whole thing yourselves...or join a covers band and get paid and get rid of the indie/original thing..

This sh*te deal..on the face of it...exists because people allow it or go along with it.

When we did this sort of thing...we always walked away with something... or at least were in with a good chance of doing so.
Maybe my memeory is a bit rosy...but paying to play was not the norm.

opps cross post........

Edited June 8, 2010 by JTUK

[witterth]

[quote name='urbanx' date='Jun 8 2010, 05:10 PM' post='861230

It's exactly that.
It is rubbish I know, but I'm desperate to play gigs, I live for them! As this thread has proved I'll do almost anything for any gig, including buying more backline.


[/quote]
Dont Worry it'll soon wear off, that feeling.....NURSE! the screens please!

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='JTUK' post='861261' date='Jun 8 2010, 05:29 PM']Maybe my memeory is a bit rosy...but paying to play was not the norm.[/quote]

The sad truth is that in the majority of places round this country, the number of people wanting to play live music exceeds the number of people that want to watch local live music. Pubs make more money if they show the football than if they put a band on, because football supporters drink more and there's no soundman to pay. It has to be said that, with exceptions, putting on original music is not economically sustainable.

S.P.

[D-L-B]

[quote name='bumfrog' post='861147' date='Jun 8 2010, 04:01 PM']no, you were asking why people play gigs like that and I was telling you why.[/quote]
[quote name='urbanx' post='861230' date='Jun 8 2010, 05:10 PM']but I'm desperate to play gigs, I live for them! As this thread has proved I'll do almost anything for any gig, including buying more backline.
As this one's through a 'promotor' we haven't actually had to pay to play, hence I didn't mind buying a crappy combi (£30).[/quote]
Some people are deluding themselves. Why the big clamour to play live when it's clearly a massive stress and going to be a bit crap?
I'm with JTUK on this one.
I love gigging but I'd never bend over and take it like some of you guys claim you have to.
I do not see not having to pay to play as a bonus either.

Edited June 8, 2010 by D-L-B

[CSurgy]

for me this is very simple... my car, my bike and my bass gear are for no one else than me

want to play? bring yours!

not even my son or daughter (2 and 4 years old) can put their hands on my guitars!!

[attachment=51687:67.jpg]

this was the only time he puts his hands on his father's bass just for the photo.


about the cash, i just do not play for free and i think nobody should.

Edited June 8, 2010 by CSurgy

[Dubs]

IMHO, you've got to be 'off your nut' to be going through all this stress with the knowledge that if everything goes really well and you sell out the venue you'll just about break even...

I know it's not about money, but I wouldn't fork out £280 with the potential of only seeing £100 or so of it back, let alone be spending my money on equipment that I never intend to gig myself.

[OldGit]

[quote name='CSurgy' post='861286' date='Jun 8 2010, 05:55 PM']about the cash, i just do not play for free and i think nobody should.[/quote]

Welcome to basschat CSurgy
We go round this ol' "pay to play" loop about every three months or so..

It may be different where you are but in the UK there's a load of bands playing [b]orginal material[/b] who want to play in a venue.
They want to play but they don't want to do any marketing or selling tickets or take their mates along to see them. Or they are not good enough for their mates to go and see them (more than once).

Thus the venue makes no money out of them. Thus they have to pay to play. It's not really "pay to play" its just facing up to teh cost of putting on a band and being responsible for your part of the expense of putting on a gig - PA, sound person, bar staff, loss of takings over the bar, publicity, rent. elecricity tc etc etc.

It's simples...
You have to do things that enable the person risking their job and/or money to put your band on to make enough money to make it worth while.
If you don't then it is only fair that they ask you to pay to cover the costs of your rehearsal in public, for that is what it is if you don't do the do and take a crowd to buy tickets and drink loads of beer.

So Take 200 people to every gig and you'd get paid.

That's it in a nutshell.

Edited June 8, 2010 by OldGit

[RhysP]

[quote name='OldGit' post='861248' date='Jun 8 2010, 05:19 PM']all this stress for a 50 capacity?
You probably don't need your proper stuff then, just take the new/old poo combo [/quote]
For a 50 capacity venue you could probably manage with no amps at all.

[witterth]

All this,
" you must be off your nut stuff" is in someways a bit harsh chaps!

do none of you hardened pros or ruemy eyed funk rockers (like me) not remember that,first flush of youthful enthusiam?

well I do, I can remember all those(many)years ago, really looking forward to "gig"

"GUYS WE GOT A GIG!!!!" hurrahh e.t.c much merriment and the like, you know.

lets not be to cynical about the "worth" of doing a gig, as I say, sometimes the buzz of doing one is enough and even in my aged state I can still recall that feeling....it seems like.....

yesterday...yesterday...yesterday...yesterday.................

Ps on the gear front Id say NO and not worry about it, when will you see any of 'em again?

[Doddy]

[quote name='OldGit' post='861314' date='Jun 8 2010, 06:28 PM']It may be different where you are but in the UK there's a load of bands playing [b]orginal material[/b] who want to play in a venue.
They want to play but they don't want to do any marketing or selling tickets or take their mates along to see them. Or they are not good enough for their mates to go and see them (more than once).

[Edit]

So Take 200 people to every gig and you'd get paid.[/quote]

What if you are trying to break into a new area? If you are from,say,Manchester and doing a gig in London,why should
you have to take a crowd with you? You shouldn't have to drag all of your mates halfway across the country to be able
to get paid to do a gig. If it's promoted well,people will start to hear of you and come out.

Urbanx ......So,you've been pressured into buying a new amp for other bands to use in a pay-to-play 'venue' that only holds 50
people?? I think someone is majorly taking the piss out of you.
I know that you want to play,but I would get away from these kind of situations pretty sharpish.

[Dubs]

[quote name='witterth' post='861324' date='Jun 8 2010, 06:35 PM']All this " you must be off your nut stuff" is in someways a bit harsh chaps![/quote]

It's just an opinion; the harsh reality of it maybe? I don't think the scenario you're detailing is the case here, however, I may be wrong (it's happened in the past )

Would you put yourself in the same position?

I think there's a lot of exploitation going on here...