Jazz on an electric

[Jam]

So today I went to a jazz night at one of the pubs down the road and I was really inspired by the double bass player to come home and play some jazzy stuff.

The only problem is, I have no idea where to start. I'm not committed enough that I want to buy an upright bass but I want to use some of the ideas and shapes etc that an upright player would use.

Can anyone recommend any jazz stuff for electric bass? Not including Jaco, while I respect his stuff i'm nowhere near good enough..

While i'm at it, can anyone recommend any good jazz? I want to get into it but whenever I search for jazz all that seems to come up is the minimalist, weird sounding stuff, whereas I mean the more "conventional" style, if you catch my drift.

[Mike]

Try Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue"!

[Paul Cooke]

[quote name='Jam' post='84725' date='Nov 7 2007, 03:59 AM']Can anyone recommend any jazz stuff for electric bass? Not including Jaco, while I respect his stuff i'm nowhere near good enough..

While i'm at it, can anyone recommend any good jazz? I want to get into it but whenever I search for jazz all that seems to come up is the minimalist, weird sounding stuff, whereas I mean the more "conventional" style, if you catch my drift.[/quote]

just get one of those Jazz compilation CDs you see in the supermarkets record racks going for £3

I definitely recommend Miles Davis...

but would also recommend Dave Brubeck...

the album Time Out is considered to be one of the standard references for Jazz...

[Shaggy]

True jazzers would laugh at this, but a good one to start on and give you that jazzy feel with a bit of a solo is "Nivram" by the Shadows. Jazz doesn't need to be avant-garde or virstuoso stuff to sound good!

[skywalker]

Learn walking lines - Ed Friedlands book is good, from basic stuff all the way to complicated walikng - and easy to follow too.

[JD1]

Try "The Art of Walking Bass - a method for acoustic or electric bass" by Bob Magnusson

[E_MaN]

I play upright stuff on electric, just get the song and the music sheet and your there!!! And with my Stingray I can get pretty close to a nice double bass sound with dead strings.

[Viajero]

I've learned most of what I know out of double bass books - The Evolving Bassist by Rufus Reid is a good one, or Ray Brown's Bass Method.

[OldGit]

+1 on Kinda Blue and Miles from the 60's.
Also Count Basie
Dave Brubeck's stuff used tricky time sigs sometimes but don't be put off by that, just get your counting right.

One thing you need to know about this kind of jazz - the walking bass department - is that the band will depend on the bassplayer for the beat and time. So you need to work hard on being consistent - practice with a metronome and concentrate hard on that.

If you play with experienced jazz players (say at a jam) they will be looking to you for the beat and not the drummer.
That's a very significant difference to rock, blues etc and one that I wished I known when I started to learn jazz bassing.

Edited November 7, 2007 by OldGit

[Mikey D]

Unfortunately there is still the snobbery towards the electric as a lot of electric players don't make it swing and like it or not as soon as you pull an electric bass out at a jazz gig/jam there are preconceptions and unfortunately there aren't too many people in the jazz community that are completely open minded about it.

I will be the first to admit that NOTHING can reproduce the sound of the upright exactly, but you can get close.

I spend a hell of a lot of my time trying to sound convincing on electric bass playing jazz as I have made the choice to dedicate myself to electric more than upright in a jazz setting and unfortunatly it is not as easy as a lot of people will have you believe. I also know that some people on here might now say "I play with my thumb and it sounds the same". It doesn't.

It is not just about being in time and playing right notes, although these are very important.

Sound is a big factor. The upright has a completely different attack and decay to an electric, but trying to mimic this can do wonders for your walking lines. Some people use flatwounds, a foam mute, turn off their treble and/or pick with their thumb and it sounds ok. I personally turn of my treble on my GWB35 and put a small piece of foam under the roundwound strings by the bridge and it sounds ok.

For serious study of walking check out Kind Of Blue (Paul Chambers), We Get Requests or Nighttrain (Ray Brown) and go from there.,

If you are interested in going down the route of doing it properly on the electric (May god have mercy on your soul), for players who are excellent at playing convincing walking jazz on electric check out Anthony Jackson (wtih Michel Petrucciani and steve gadd), Jimmy Johnson, Laurence Cottle and especially Steve Swallow. I don't think there are any other bigger name electric players out there who really swing.

One thing I would recommend on the electric is practice with the metronome on 2 and 4 and put more emphasis on these notes when walking as it will give a better feel. Oh and if you can, get a teacher.

Also check out the technique forum, someone asked about 'Walking Bass' and I posted a very helpful sheet to get you started.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Mikey D

[OldGit]

Oh and Steve Swallow not only plays electric, he uses a plectrum too
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idaR_AaMxuc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idaR_AaMxuc[/url]

[guitarnbass]

Well, music doesn't care whether you play jazz on an upright or an electric...

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='84871' date='Nov 7 2007, 12:55 PM']Well, music doesn't care whether you play jazz on an upright or an electric...[/quote]

Exactly. Just play the music. I do 90% of jazz gigs on an electric fretless.

Rufus Reid's book is a good place to start if you need a manual, John Goldsby has one too, otherwise, get the Aebersolds, some basic theory in your belt, and use your ear: transcribe!

It also helps to have a midi player of some sort,youcan get loads of midi tunes in jazz format, slow it down to the tempos you need to practice at, change the key if you need to, get the fake books out and start practicing. You can work on Giant Steps or Au privave at 22 bpm if you need to and work towards 220bpm....

You can also using Amazing Slower Downer by Roni music to work with actual audio, it even slows down MPs and pitch changes these files. Great for transcribing.

[OldGit]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='84881' date='Nov 7 2007, 01:07 PM']Exactly. Just play the music. I do 90% of jazz gigs on an electric fretless.

Rufus Reid's book is a good place to start if you need a manual, John Goldsby has one too, otherwise, get the Aebersolds, some basic theory in your belt, and use your ear: transcribe!

It also helps to have a midi player of some sort,youcan get loads of midi tunes in jazz format, slow it down to the tempos you need to practice at, change the key if you need to, get the fake books out and start practicing. You can work on Giant Steps or Au privave at 22 bpm if you need to and work towards 220bpm....

You can also using Amazing Slower Downer by Roni music to work with actual audio, it even slows down MPs and pitch changes these files. Great for transcribing.[/quote]


Windows Media Player does this trick too. very helpful - and free

[bass_ferret]

One of my favourites is This Ones For Blanton by Duke Ellington and Ray Brown. Its a tribute to the legendary and ground breaking piano/bass duets The Duke recorded with Jimmy Blanton, who in two years re-wrote the rule book for jazz bass.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='84844' date='Nov 7 2007, 11:39 AM']I spend a hell of a lot of my time trying to sound convincing on electric bass playing jazz as I have made the choice to dedicate myself to electric more than upright in a jazz setting and unfortunatly it is not as easy as a lot of people will have you believe. I also know that some people on here might now say "I play with my thumb and it sounds the same". It doesn't.

It is not just about being in time and playing right notes, although these are very important.

Sound is a big factor. The upright has a completely different attack and decay to an electric, but trying to mimic this can do wonders for your walking lines. Some people use flatwounds, a foam mute, turn off their treble and/or pick with their thumb and it sounds ok. I personally turn of my treble on my GWB35 and put a small piece of foam under the roundwound strings by the bridge and it sounds ok.

For serious study of walking check out Kind Of Blue (Paul Chambers), We Get Requests or Nighttrain (Ray Brown) and go from there.,

If you are interested in going down the route of doing it properly on the electric (May god have mercy on your soul), for players who are excellent at playing convincing walking jazz on electric check out Anthony Jackson (wtih Michel Petrucciani and steve gadd), Jimmy Johnson, Laurence Cottle and especially Steve Swallow. I don't think there are any other bigger name electric players out there who really swing.


Also check out the technique forum, someone asked about 'Walking Bass' and I posted a very helpful sheet to get you started.[/quote]

I'd not worry about mimicing an upright with an electric slab, if you need to play an acoustic upright then go play an acoustic upright, otherwise just play the music... Chuck Webb, Stanley Banks, Alex Blake all swing on an electric bass guitar.

[Bilbo]

Hey Mikey D - you an' me both.

I started playing jazz on electric (fretless) in 1986 and am still a great believer in its potential in the jazz genre. Whilst you can't beat a double bass for sounding like a double bass, a properly placed electric bass sound can easily make something swing. I guess the question is what kind of swing is it.

Paul Chambers and Charles Mingus 'swing' differently so why can't Steve Swallow (who is THE swingingest bass player ever to plug in) and Anthony Jackson? I think its all about where your bass sound sits in in the sonic spectrum and how it interacts with other instruments (primarily the drummers ride cymbal). I think it is important to work with your instrument AND your amp to make the sound work (I use a Wal Custom Fretless and an Eden Metro combo - I know the Gallien Kruger combo is popular for jazz but, for me, it doesn't fill the right sonic space to make the music swing. Most people use it because it doesn't weigh much not because it sounds right).

The truth is if a musician wants to book a double bass player to fulfil his musical vision, s/he should do so. If, however, s/he prefers a double bass player who can't swing to an electric bass player who can, then it is for appearances only, s/he is an idiot and I don't really want to play with him anyway.

[Mikey D]

[quote name='guitarnbass' post='84871' date='Nov 7 2007, 12:55 PM']Well, music doesn't care whether you play jazz on an upright or an electric...[/quote]

Unfortunately, a lot of players still do.

[Mikey D]

[quote name='synaesthesia' post='84887' date='Nov 7 2007, 01:15 PM']I'd not worry about mimicing an upright with an electric slab, if you need to play an acoustic upright then go play an acoustic upright, otherwise just play the music... Chuck Webb, Stanley Banks, Alex Blake all swing on an electric bass guitar.[/quote]

I know what you are saying, but if you are talking the role of the bass which is usually upright, it does help if the sound is more in line with the bassy thump of an upright than the more singing fretless sound. I have experimented with this with my teacher (one of the UKs foremost upright bassists and mean mean electric player) and I have to say, the more you go to try and mimic (not sound exactly like, but change attack, decay of notes and emphasis...) the timbre of the upright, the better you sound.

However, saying that as bilbo says, it is more about where you sit in the whole sound spectrum that the individual tone you create.

You are also lucky to work with so many musicians who can accept the electric as a valid instrument in the jazz context and I will have to check those guys out some more. Isn't Alex predominately an upright player? I'm talking about players would are forging ahead in the jazz genre solely on the electric. Also can you recommend some albums of Stanley's and Chuck's that demonstrate them swinging for me to check out. Cheers.

Edited November 7, 2007 by Mikey D

[Mikey D]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='84994' date='Nov 7 2007, 04:42 PM']Hey Mikey D - you an' me both.

I started playing jazz on electric (fretless) in 1986 and am still a great believer in its potential in the jazz genre. Whilst you can't beat a double bass for sounding like a double bass, a properly placed electric bass sound can easily make something swing. I guess the question is what kind of swing is it.

Paul Chambers and Charles Mingus 'swing' differently so why can't Steve Swallow (who is THE swingingest bass player ever to plug in) and Anthony Jackson? I think its all about where your bass sound sits in in the sonic spectrum and how it interacts with other instruments (primarily the drummers ride cymbal). I think it is important to work with your instrument AND your amp to make the sound work (I use a Wal Custom Fretless and an Eden Metro combo - I know the Gallien Kruger combo is popular for jazz but, for me, it doesn't fill the right sonic space to make the music swing. Most people use it because it doesn't weigh much not because it sounds right).

The truth is if a musician wants to book a double bass player to fulfil his musical vision, s/he should do so. If, however, s/he prefers a double bass player who can't swing to an electric bass player who can, then it is for appearances only, s/he is an idiot and I don't really want to play with him anyway.[/quote]

Since 1986? You obviously haven't let the man keep you down! I'm personally finding it hard with the negative attitude to the electric (even nowadays), but saying that I am lucky enough to have quite a few people who are open minded and do have the attitude "if it swings, it swings".

I'm not a fan of the Gks either. Unfortunately, your last sentance just about sums it up! I swear most people would rather have upright instead of electric in a jazz combo/ensemble for the reasons you and I have stated.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='85007' date='Nov 7 2007, 05:02 PM']Since 1986? You obviously haven't let the man keep you down! I'm personally finding it hard with the negative attitude to the electric (even nowadays), but saying that I am lucky enough to have quite a few people who are open minded and do have the attitude "if it swings, it swings".

I'm not a fan of the Gks either. Unfortunately, your last sentance just about sums it up! I swear most people would rather have upright instead of electric in a jazz combo/ensemble for the reasons you and I have stated.[/quote]

What do these peopel think of upright sticks?
I'm amazed that this attitude is still widespread ..
Are they all in their eighties?
Si

[Mikey D]

Same, just as bad as electric and unfortunately, I am even talking about a lot of people i study with aswell who are 18-23 who have this opinion. I'll learn 'em!

[wulf]

Perhaps I haven't (tried to) play with enough other jazz musicians but have to say that I haven't hit the snobbery problems that are often talked about. No issues in and around my current jazz group, at least that I'm aware of. Perhaps they don't know what to make of a headless six string bass and just figure I must be some kind of guitarist....

I think one thing that helps gain acceptance is learning not to play too loud. On a lot of jazz recordings, and certainly the kind of things that other instrumentalists are likely to concentrate on, the sound of the bass is not front and centre. If you can play a solid supporting role quietly enough that everyone else can be heard clearly, people seem quite happy.

Wulf

[Bilbo]

I think you are right about the volume thing, Wulf. The electric bass doesn't need to sound like an upright but it does need to find the same place in the overall sound; underpinning everything, providiing body and support but not taking over and overpowering everything.

Jaco did jazz (not fusion) bass a little disservice when he came front and centre. (I love jaco, by the way). He could be sooo musical but also, when there was no-one around to temper his ego, he could be very tasteless (did you hear the trio cd he did with Brian Melvin and Jon Davis? The bass was, well, in the wrong place in the mix. Now listen to Anthony Jackson on the Michel Camilo CD 'Sundance' -WOW!! Or Steve Swallow with John Scofiled 'En Route'? Brilliant.... beautifully integrated, musical.

The bass has to make the music better - you have to get off on making other people sound good!

Be cool, people.

[synaesthesia]

[quote name='Mikey D' post='85005' date='Nov 7 2007, 04:59 PM']I know what you are saying, but if you are talking the role of the bass which is usually upright, it does help if the sound is more in line with the bassy thump of an upright than the more singing fretless sound. I have experimented with this with my teacher (one of the UKs foremost upright bassists and mean mean electric player) and I have to say, the more you go to try and mimic (not sound exactly like, but change attack, decay of notes and emphasis...) the timbre of the upright, the better you sound.

However, saying that as bilbo says, it is more about where you sit in the whole sound spectrum that the individual tone you create.

You are also lucky to work with so many musicians who can accept the electric as a valid instrument in the jazz context and I will have to check those guys out some more. Isn't Alex predominately an upright player? I'm talking about players would are forging ahead in the jazz genre solely on the electric. Also can you recommend some albums of Stanley's and Chuck's that demonstrate them swinging for me to check out. Cheers.[/quote]

Check out Alex Blake's electric bass guitar playing with Manhattan Transfer. Chuck Webb played with Ramsey Lewis for years, and Stanley Banks played a lot with George Benson. He even turns up for jam nights in NYC.

The problem I think many people have is that they think bass is bass, it isn't. A Double bass is not an electric bass guitar and vice versa. An electric bass guitarist plays a guitar, albeit an electric one an octave or more lower. It is not the same instrument. Next time you get pressured to take out your acoustic upright, insist on the pianist playing a grand piano, Bosendorfer even. If he doesn't ask him how wide a stereo image of a sampled piano is compared to a 7 foot grand. And tell the drummer his remo heads are mylar 'tupperware' plastic not calfskin. That'll shut them up.

Edited November 7, 2007 by synaesthesia