Have we done Baer amps and cabs yet?

[stevie]

There's not much energy at 3kHz unless you're slapping really hard - so you're quite likely to get away with it. It's difficult to quantify the risk really. But there shouldn't be any risk at all.

[R Baer]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361888030' post='1992467']
...So why don't you argue the facts instead of attacking me personally?
[/quote]

Because I don't think players visit these threads to see people argue and you've obviously had a chip on your shoulder from post one, for some reason. If you have issues with our gear, then you're free to not purchase it, but I don't understand your need to troll on a thread regarding gear you obviously have no interest in. Owners of the ML112 really like the frequency response of the cab and its peaks in the upper mids are there by design. I've had local pro's test the cab with different crossovers that had the 1.5K peak either substantially reduced, or removed altogether and in every case, the players came back reporting that they like the sound of the original crossover better. Maybe I should ignore their opinions because the new crossover looks better on paper? The cabs that were tested by Bass Gear Magazine are Tom's personal cabs. Alan Loshbaugh, who wrote the review, purchased a pair of ML112's shortly after doing the review. Would guys who know gear like they do purchase the cabs if they sounded bad? Regardless of the opinion you have based on the Bass Gear graphs, I stand behind the design. I don't see that I've ever made some outlandish claims that needs to be debated and anyone buying our cabs has the option to return them if they are not 100% happy with them. Simple as that.

Edited February 26, 2013 by R Baer

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1361901971' post='1992810']
Is a lower than nominal impedance at 3kHz likely to cause much of a problem in a bass guitar application?
[/quote]No. This is normal. If there was a dip below 5 ohms in the region where 75% of the power demands lie for electic bass it would be an issue, but that region lies below 500Hz.

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1361904095' post='1992866']
No. This is normal. If there was a dip below 5 ohms in the region where 75% of the power demands lie for electic bass it would be an issue, but that region lies below 500Hz.
[/quote]

Why would you say that? Of course it's not normal. The impedance should remain above nominal across the entire passband of the speaker and the manufacturer quotes a usable frequency response of 40Hz to 9kHz. What if your keyboard player uses it? Is there anything in the manual saying they shouldn’t?

I can see why you’re jittery though. Roger’s done the right thing and employed you to OK the technical performance of the speaker and you messed up. In theory you are now liable for the cost of recalling and modifying all the Baer speakers in the field to meet the published spec. Nice one!

[RandomBass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361564839' post='1987796']
Well, Random, maybe it's never happened before but I'm sure you'll get over it. I did provide an explanation of why I thought you were mistaken and you're welcome to disagree. I've aired my concerns and we'll see if any information is forthcoming.

Yes, the advertising thing does bug me a bit, especially when it gets excessive. If I'm having a pint in a pub, the last think I want is somebody trying to sell me insurance or flashing their corporate logo at me. But I never used the word 'wrong'. I do think it would be a good idea for Basschat to charge companies for displaying their business logo. That way at least Basschat would benefit.
[/quote]
But that's the point. They didn't come to you, you went to them.

And you did use the word 'wrong'.

Anyway, finally, I respect your view, just not your method of delivery.

[BluRay]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361909775' post='1992989']
Why would you say that? Of course it's not normal. The impedance should remain above nominal across the entire passband of the speaker and the manufacturer quotes a usable frequency response of 40Hz to 9kHz. What if your keyboard player uses it? Is there anything in the manual saying they shouldn’t?

I can see why you’re jittery though. Roger’s done the right thing and employed you to OK the technical performance of the speaker and you messed up. In theory you are now liable for the cost of recalling and modifying all the Baer speakers in the field to meet the published spec. Nice one!
[/quote]

Irrespective of who’s “right” (and it seems there are fair and interesting points all around) I don’t think its right or fair to slate someone’s professional work based on the contents of this thread. Just saying, is all.

[Conan]

As an interested bystander, with no desire to buy any more bass cabinets for quite a while, I feel that some contributors to this thread have come out of it with enhanced reputations (in my eyes) and others have done the opposite.

I don't think I need to name names.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1361897305' post='1992677']
Because the measurements are wrong, and along with them any and all opinions based upon them.
[/quote]

Ok...forget that you don't like the measurements.... if the buyer then decided he didn't like the sound, that would trump all
technical data, to my mind anyway.
And the the opposite would apply as well. IMO.

[JTUK]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1361960259' post='1993543']
As an interested bystander, with no desire to buy any more bass cabinets for quite a while, I feel that some contributors to this thread have come out of it with enhanced reputations (in my eyes) and others have done the opposite.

.......
[/quote]

I consider myself a bystander as well to all intents and purposes... and I agree.

[BassTractor]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361909775' post='1992989']
I can see why you’re jittery though. Roger’s done the right thing and employed you to OK the technical performance of the speaker and you messed up. In theory you are now liable for the cost of recalling and modifying all the Baer speakers in the field to meet the published spec. Nice one!
[/quote]

Hm. How do you yourself rate your above behaviour as compared to the Roger Baer behaviour that you criticised so vocally?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1361961039' post='1993556']
Ok...forget that you don't like the measurements.... if the buyer then decided he didn't like the sound, that would trump all
technical data, to my mind anyway.
And the the opposite would apply as well. IMO.
[/quote]It's not a matter of what I like. There is a correct way to take measurements, and there's every other way. Bass Gear uses one of the other ways. If one bases their criticisms solely on those measurements, not having heard the cab, then those criticisms have no basis, either objective or subjective.
[quote]How do you yourself rate your above behaviour as compared to the Roger Baer behaviour that you criticised so vocally? [/quote]His behavior is the same now as it has always been. He fancies himself an authority, and takes very opportunity to belittle those who actually make their livings doing what he wishes that he could. An internet bully, who can't expound on his own accomplishments if the field, as he has none, so he can only satisfy his ego by criticising those who are successful. I chose to ignore him a goodly five years back. I answered a few of his posts in this thread, in the hope that he was actually interested in learning something. You can see how well that turned out, so back onto my iggy list he has gone. Others, like Alex, have decided that it's just not worth their time being here at all, given the toxic atmosphere. AFAIK Roger is the only other manufacturer who has ever been here, and given the warm reception he's received I wouldn't be surprised if he also decided it's not worth it.

[brensabre79]

Another innocent bystander here. I've not read all of the thread, just parts of it. I cannot understand why people, especially Bill and Roger have received so much flak.

But then I fail to see why so many times when recognised experts have come in to the forum to share their insights, they have been berated by people who don't like what they hear. As Bill mentioned above, Alex doesn't come around too often these days, I wouldn't be surprised if Roger doesn't either. And its a real shame because I, for one, have learnt so much from all these guys, who have given up their time for our education and entertainment.

<rant> I'm all for discussion, and difference of opinion is a GOOD THING but, once you have stated your opinion, it is perfectly acceptable that someone will disagree with it, there's no need to delve into a battle of words as if by winning that battle you will somehow be correct. If you don't like someone's product, you can just say "I don't like it personally" and leave it there - there's no need to have some pseudo scientific argument to back it up! In fact doing so only makes you look like a tool.

I'm quite happy with my speaker cab, I don't fully understand the science of it, but I understand that someone who does know about these things has put a lot of time and effort in to making it so. I know my ears and I know I like it. I also know many people don't like the cab I use, it sounds foul to their ears and they would never consider buying one. No amount of scientific posturing, reviews in Bass w***er magazine, or opinions stated on here are going to change my mind, or theirs for that matter. </rant>

and breathe

[Tom Bowlus]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1361802072' post='1991064']
This procedure is starkly different from the Bass Gear procedure, which consists of sticking a mic in front of the cab, taking a single measurement at close range on the HF element axis. When you do so you get a half space result below the baffle step, a quarter space result above the baffle step, along with inaccuracies caused by floor bounce and response lobing, rendering the measurement useless for comparison purposes other than to measurements of other cabs taken using the same flawed technique.
[/quote]

That is not an accurate assessment of our testing procedure. Yes, we do test with one mic and we do not splice multiple measurements into one chart. For testing enclosures, we use an Audiomatica Clio system, and our test procedures are in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions on how to properly perform tests using that system. We measure using 1 watt at 1 meter. The Clio system employs a stepped, gated frequency response sweep. Measurements are made at a point which either directly on axis with the main driver (in the case of a single-woofer enclosure), or aimed at the epicenter of the main drivers on a multiple-woofer system. In addition to the on-axis measurements, we perform off-axis measurements at 15, 30, and 45 degrees off axis.

I would also like to point out that our -10dB measurements on the "useable frequency response" line up almost exactly with the 40Hz to 9kHz measurements stated on the Baer webpage. From our perspective, we do not believe that the ML-112 measured "poorly." In fact, we think that it performed very well in both our technical and in-hand evaluations. The fact that both myself and the in-hand reviewer, Alan Loshbaugh, purchased two ML-112's for our personal use is further testament to what we think of these cabs.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Tom Bowlus' timestamp='1361974750' post='1993866']
That is not an accurate assessment of our testing procedure. Yes, we do test with one mic and we do not splice multiple measurements into one chart.
[/quote]You may do so accurately with the speaker mounted in the wall of an anechoic chamber. You can duplicate that by going outdoors, digging a pit large enough to fit the speaker into facing upward, backfilling around the speaker to create a flush mounting, with the mic suspended far enough above to insure that the multiple wavefronts from multiple drivers are fully integrated. The two step process is a lot easier. The way you're doing it will not give an accurate result.


[quote]We measure using 1 watt at 1 meter.


[/quote]Measuring at one meter does not allow for integration of the wavefronts of the woofer and midrange. The result will be inaccurate, especially off-axis. Your charts show deep nulls in the off-axis that aren't there on-axis, and in the midrange and HF sensitivity at 15 degrees is higher than axial at some frequencies. Those inacurracies are the result of the mic being too close to the speaker. The low frequency response is also off, the result of the baffle reflection as line source when measured at too close a distance.

[quote]From our perspective, we do not believe that the ML-112 measured "poorly."[/quote]Since your perspective would be compared to other cabs that you've measured using the same technique that's to be expected. The issue is that compared to speakers measured half-space anechoic with the mic at a proper distance the results are pretty bad, and could lead one who knows how to read SPL charts to think that the cab sounds pretty bad as well.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Conan]

[quote name='brensabre79' timestamp='1361974516' post='1993862']
I cannot understand why Bill and Roger have received so much flak.

As Bill mentioned above, Alex doesn't come around too often these days, I wouldn't be surprised if Roger doesn't either. And its a real shame because I, for one, have learnt so much from all these guys.

there's no need to have some pseudo scientific argument to back it up! In fact doing so only makes you look like a tool.[/quote]

Totally agree. And I object to being seen as some kind of sycophantic fan-boy just because I feel that way!

[stevie]

I (and I assume others who have participated in this thread) was asked yesterday evening by a mod not to participate any further in this thread. That is their privilege and I will respect that. I would just like to point out that, if you read the thread from the beginning, you will see that I have not criticized anyone personally nor have I insulted anyone. My remark to Bill pointed out by BluRay and BassTractor was over the top, however, and I apologize for that.

[Conan]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1361977465' post='1993934']The issue is that compared to speakers measured half-space anechoic with the mic at a proper distance the results are pretty bad, and could lead one who knows how to read SPL charts to think that the cab sounds pretty bad as well.[/quote]

Exactly. If there is such a thing as an "industry standard" test (and I believe that there must be, from what Bill is saying) then surely [i]everyone[/i] who seeks to test amplification equipment should use that test. Otherwise they are comparing apples with pears, rather than apples with other apples. Or insert your own more apt metaphor...

[Tom Bowlus]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1361978050' post='1993946']
Exactly. If there is such a thing as an "industry standard" test (and I believe that there must be, from what Bill is saying) then surely [i]everyone[/i] who seeks to test amplification equipment should use that test. Otherwise they are comparing apples with pears, rather than apples with other apples. Or insert your own more apt metaphor...
[/quote]

There are industry standards for measurement of amplifiers and cabs for both home audio and pro audio use, but there are not equivalent standards for musical instrument amps and cabs. I am sure that Bill will disagree with me, though.

[Conan]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361977967' post='1993943'] if you read the thread from the beginning, you will see that I have not criticized anyone personally nor have I insulted anyone. [/quote]

I [i]have[/i] read the thread from beginning to end, and I have found some of your comments to be both critical and insulting. Whilst I value your experience and views, I would like to hear you express them in a less confrontational style if that is possible?

I ask this purely as a member - not as a mod of any description. This is an interesting debate but it has been spoiled by some of the comment.

[wateroftyne]

....anyway - how do these cabs sound in real life? Anyone?

[ShergoldSnickers]

I'd hate for anyone to stop posting when it comes to cabs and measurements etc. Whilst I don't always agree 100% with things that are said, I [b]always[/b] look forward to the posts of Bill, Alex and yes Stevie amongst others. The debate sometimes gets a little buried in wreckage sometimes, but I feel more informed at the end of it. A very good thing.

[Conan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1361978371' post='1993954']
....anyway - how do these cabs sound in real life? Anyone?
[/quote]

Sadly, I'm not sure anyone cares any more...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Tom Bowlus' timestamp='1361978280' post='1993951']
There are industry standards for measurement of amplifiers and cabs for both home audio and pro audio use, but there are not equivalent standards for musical instrument amps and cabs. I am sure that Bill will disagree with me, though.
[/quote]The standard of how to measure speakers dates to the 1930s. A speaker is a speaker is a speaker, how it's used has no bearing on how it should be measured.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[charic]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1361978371' post='1993954']
....anyway - how do these cabs sound in real life? Anyone?
[/quote]

Who cares, no-one listens to the bass player anyway

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361977967' post='1993943']
I (and I assume others who have participated in this thread) was asked yesterday evening by a mod not to participate any further in this thread. That is their privilege and I will respect that.
[/quote]

Good logic, consistent with previous posts.

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1361978371' post='1993954']
....anyway - how do these cabs sound in real life? Anyone?
[/quote]

Depends on the room. Much like the magazines tests.