Have we done Baer amps and cabs yet?

[IanA]

[quote name='paulflan0151' timestamp='1361724575' post='1989883']
Wonder if Bass Direct will be getting the head in? Looks nice.
[/quote]

I hope so!

[wateroftyne]

Has anyone north of the Tees or south of the Tweed got one of these? I'd like to have a go of one...

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1361735823' post='1990136']
Has anyone north of the Tees or south of the Tweed got one of these? I'd like to have a go of one...
[/quote]

WoT he said (sic)! In fact we can double team on this and between us we have Bergantino (10s) and Aguilar (12s) for the helpful recipient to have a try of!

[R Baer]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361714926' post='1989615']
[size=4][i][color=#0000CD]I didn't level criticism at you personally. The cabinet measured poorly in the Bass Gear test. The measurements look fair to me but perhaps you’d like to clarify the matter by posting the set of measurements Bill did for you. What measurements did he do exactly? I am pleased that you are more than happy to answer questions about your product.[/color][/i]

Like I said, we don't post frequency response curves as part of our marketing and I've stated my reasons for not doing so. I sent the cab to Bill to measure so that I knew the specs we do list on the website were correct and so that we wouldn't be called out later, by him or anyone else. Bill and I have worked together before, but I also know that won't stop him from calling me out online if he thinks I am making claims that the gear won't support. Bill tested the cab and confirmed that -3db and -10db frequency specs we claim were valid. If Bill would like to chime in with how the test were conducted, I will gladly allow that, as it is really out of my area of expertise and I don't want to give out the wrong information. Looking at the Bass Gear test of the cab, one would assume the cab to be very lacking in low end response, which would be very opposite from the opinions of players that actually use our cabs, a few of which have posted here. So here we clearly have a case where some test don't correlate well with the experience of those using the gear, so which information is more useful to people interested in the cabs? The response chart on Bass Gear article, or the experience of those players actually using the cab on gigs in all kinds on environments, including those of the person doing the reveiw? Oh, and by the way, Bill frequently gives me a hard time online for not posting more information, but I accept that as an area we disagree. He lets it go for the most part, because he feels we are not out there making false claims about our gear.

[color=#000080][i]We’re clear then. You consider Basschat to be a marketing channel comparable to a stand at Naam and I consider it to be more like a pub where like-minded musicians can meet to chat, exchange experiences, offer and receive advice. Did I say you shouldn’t wear your logo here? Don’t make a meal of it, Roger.[/i][/color]

You didn't say I shouldn't wear my logo here, but you clearly seem to have issue with it and feel that BassChat should charge us for doing so. I was just explaining my reasoning for doing so. Online social media is being used by just about every company in the world there days, so it would be silly of me to not take advantage of it. Isn't the direct interaction between the players and the manufacturers of bass gear one of the more positive benefits a site like this has to offer? I do try and keep shameless self promotion to a minimum.

[color=#000080][i]You disagree with what? That measurements are useful? Don’t you measure your amps?[/i][/color]

I didn't say that I felt measurements are not useful. I was disagreeing with your statement alluding to the fact that subjective opinions from those players without technical expertise are not useful. "[color=#0000CD][i]N[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]othing against subjective opinions when they are unbiased and from someone who knows what they're talking about..." [/font][/i][/color]Personally, I don't see why the the opinion of any bassist with personal experience with a piece of gear, should be deemed less relevant than the opinion of another.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I'm not trying to pick a fight with you here, Stevie. If you have issues with the way we do business, then that's your right. I think I have explained myself and my positions clearly enough, so maybe we can move past that and not turn this thread into an online bickering match between the two of us. [/font][/color][/size]
[i][/quote][/i]

Edited February 24, 2013 by R Baer

[wateroftyne]

Are people really having a go at Roger for popping up and chipping in to threads about his product?

Wow.

I wish more manufacturers would get involved to this degree....

[Guest]

You've conducted yourself with aplomb Mr B,
I salute you sir, every credit.

[BassTractor]

FWiW, I think Roger's contribution is not only within the boundaries of reasonability, but also appreciated.
Not every manufacturer shows this level of restraint and seriousness.

That said, I also think we need to be attentive when manufacturers or shops enter the debate, and I think I only need to refer to how the Warwick team started here as to why we should be attentive.


best,
bert

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote]If Bill would like to chime in with how the test were conducted, I will gladly allow that, as it is really out of my area of expertise and I don't want to give out the wrong information. [/quote]I measured the cab in the fashion proscribed by the AES and EIA, half-space anechoic. Doing so without an anechoic chamber is a two step process. Done outdoors, away from any structures, a ground plane measurement is taken first. This gives a half space result below the baffle step frequency. I do so at a distance of four meters with a sixteen watt signal, which corresponds to 1m/1w. Measuring at a closer distance gives an inaccurate result. Then the cab is put on its back, aimed upwards, the mic suspended four meters above. Another measurement is taken, this one giving a half space result above the baffle step frequency. The two results are spliced, giving a true half-space result.
This procedure is starkly different from the Bass Gear procedure, which consists of sticking a mic in front of the cab, taking a single measurement at close range on the HF element axis. When you do so you get a half space result below the baffle step, a quarter space result above the baffle step, along with inaccuracies caused by floor bounce and response lobing, rendering the measurement useless for comparison purposes other than to measurements of other cabs taken using the same flawed technique.

[ShergoldSnickers]

Teasing the commercial from the personal is a pointless task with small enthusiast driven businesses. The two are inseparable. So much of the owner's personality and ethos will be stamped on the company that it seems to make more sense to treat the conversation as if talking to an individual, rather than a faceless economic entity. Yes, keep an eye out for the commercial angle that goes beyond being useful and strays into the purely promotional. I do feel however, that we learn more from talking to small outfits like Baer, Barefaced and Bill's than from all the other large manufacturers put together. Encourage it, I say.

Edit: small laugh as he notices blatant signature 'advert' at the base of this post.

Edited February 26, 2013 by ShergoldSnickers

[JTUK]

I kind of agree... I think it is very useful to question these products ..as Stevie did, and have Baer, in this example, reply.
It may well be that bigger concerns would not touch this type of interface and scrutiny with a bargepole...

I think this is a positive outcome, a poster raised points and the maker backed his product. We can pick the bones out of all that
and I would still want to hear one of the cabs..or rather a pr..

Credit where credit is due ..IMO.

[charic]

[quote name='R Baer' timestamp='1361740792' post='1990198']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Online social media is being used by just about every company in the world there days, so it would be silly of me to not take advantage of it. Isn't the direct interaction between the players and the manufacturers of bass gear one of the more positive benefits a site like this has to offer?[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Most people here actively appreciate a manufacturer coming on this site to stand by there product and take part in a fair an open discussion which is exactly what you've done here. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your responses and also completely agree that frequency response charts etc broadly unneeded. Try one, listen:

suits you more than current rig + can afford = buy
doesn't suit you or can't afford = don't buy

A great example for myself in regards to this is Barefaced Compact/Midget, excellent specs etc etc but personally the sound doesn't do it for me. Nothing against the brand or doubting the engineering magic that has gone into it but my ears know what they like and that's different to what other people like.

Thanks for posting, I look forward to your continued participation in the forum

[stevie]

Review of the Baer ML112

Well, not really a review as such, but I thought I’d flesh out my earlier remarks for those of you planning to audition the Baer cabs. Here are a few pointers gleaned from the measurements from the Bass Gear test that may be of help. I’ll try to keep it salient.

The first thing you notice on the Bass Gear frequency response plot is the first thing you will hear when you listen to the product. There is a large (6dB or so) peak at around 1600Hz which is the main breakup mode of the bass driver. This peak comprises distortion and delayed resonances (‘ringing’) and is fairly typical of some Eminence LF drivers. Normal practice is to neutralize such peaks by putting them well out of the passband. These are resonances, not unlike cabinet resonances, and are normally undesirable.

One of the benefits of using a midrange driver is that you get to take these “nasty" breakup frequencies out of the equation and replace them with a nice smooth, clean, uncoloured midrange. There are several other benefits of this arrangement, including directional consistency up to a much higher frequency than the bass driver can manage on its own.

However, because the crossover frequency of the ML112 is at a very high 1500 – 1700 Hz (where you would expect to cross to a 1” compression driver like in Duke’s AudioKinesis system) this speaker gains few of the benefits of a bass/mid design where the transition normally takes place much lower (at around 600Hz). It’s almost as if the midrange driver in this system were being used as tweeter.

The sharp cancellations in the off axis responses show that the crossover design is flawed (the off-axis curves should be smooth). This is also likely to have a negative effect on sound quality in this area.

Finally, also as a result of the crossover design, the impedance curve of this 8-ohm-rated cab drops below nominal at around 1500Hz and drops further to around 4 ohms at 3kHz. This is quite a serious design fault and means that the product does not meet one of its most important specs. Whether you will damage your amplifier by using two of them is anyone's guess but if I were considering laying out money for one of these cabs, I would be happier if I knew the manufacturer had the technical expertise to avoid this kind of problem in the first place.

There’s more, but I think that gives you a few pointers. The main thing I would listen for when auditioning these would be whether I could live with the large resonant peak built into the cab, because it will dominate anything you play through it (and because it’s a resonance, it will be there to some extent even if you try to dial it out). Anyway, I’m sure you’ll all make your own mind up and the final arbiter is your ears. If you like it, get your credit card out and buy one. It’s your money.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361879249' post='1992237']
Review of the Baer ML112

Well, not really a review as such, but I thought I’d flesh out my earlier remarks for those of you planning to audition the Baer cabs. Here are a few pointers gleaned from the measurements from the Bass Gear test that may be of help. I’ll try to keep it salient.

The first thing you notice on the Bass Gear frequency response plot is the first thing you will hear when you listen to the product. There is a large (6dB or so) peak at around 1600Hz which is the main breakup mode of the bass driver. This peak comprises distortion and delayed resonances (‘ringing’) and is fairly typical of some Eminence LF drivers. Normal practice is to neutralize such peaks by putting them well out of the passband. These are resonances, not unlike cabinet resonances, and are normally undesirable.

One of the benefits of using a midrange driver is that you get to take these “nasty" breakup frequencies out of the equation and replace them with a nice smooth, clean, uncoloured midrange. There are several other benefits of this arrangement, including directional consistency up to a much higher frequency than the bass driver can manage on its own.

However, because the crossover frequency of the ML112 is at a very high 1500 – 1700 Hz (where you would expect to cross to a 1” compression driver like in Duke’s AudioKinesis system) this speaker gains few of the benefits of a bass/mid design where the transition normally takes place much lower (at around 600Hz). It’s almost as if the midrange driver in this system were being used as tweeter.

The sharp cancellations in the off axis responses show that the crossover design is flawed (the off-axis curves should be smooth). This is also likely to have a negative effect on sound quality in this area.

[/quote]All of that assumes that the Bass Gear chart is accurate. It is not. Why has already been explained in great detail. And as they have always used the same flawed measuring technique every chart they've ever published is not accurate. I don't see that you've been breaking every other manufacturers balls over the disinformation published by Bass Gear, so why you're picking on Baer suggests a personal agenda. And it reminds me why I long ago put you on my ignore list, and why you're going back on it after this short hiatus.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[wateroftyne]

Stevie - it's a bit unfair calling it a review, don't you think?

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' timestamp='1361886741' post='1992443']
All of that assumes that the Bass Gear chart is accurate. It is not. Why has already been explained in great detail. And as they have always used the same flawed measuring technique every chart they've ever published is not accurate. I don't see that you've been breaking every other manufacturers balls over the disinformation published by Bass Gear, so why you're picking on Baer suggests a personal agenda. And it reminds me why I long ago put you on my ignore list, and why you're going back on it after this short hiatus.
[/quote]
It looks accurate enough to me. Just because they're not using ground plane doesn't make the measurements invalid. So why don't you argue the facts instead of attacking me personally?

[stevie]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1361887521' post='1992454']
Stevie - it's a bit unfair calling it a review, don't you think?
[/quote]

A bit tongue in cheek. What would you prefer?

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361888030' post='1992467']
It looks accurate enough to me.
[/quote]

Based on what? As in you've heard the cab and walked about hearing the crossover and breakup behaviour in controlled conditions and it matches the chart? Or that it looks like a chart?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361888073' post='1992469']
A bit tongue in cheek. What would you prefer?
[/quote]

There's a place for tongue in cheek - not sure this is it?

[stevie]

Based on several decades of working with such things. The data is consistent.

[stevie]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1361888713' post='1992491']
There's a place for tongue in cheek - not sure this is it?
[/quote]
I did say in the first line that it wasn't really a review.

[IanA]

Had a brief chat with Mark yesterday, good news is that he will be stocking the Valkyrie, and it is apparently awesome. I for one will be road testing with a view to making a purchase!

[JTUK]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1361879249' post='1992237']
Review of the Baer ML112

Well, not really a review as such, but I thought I’d flesh out my earlier remarks for those of you planning to audition the Baer cabs. Here are a few pointers gleaned from the measurements from the Bass Gear test that may be of help. I’ll try to keep it salient.

The first thing you notice on the Bass Gear frequency response plot is the first thing you will hear when you listen to the product. There is a large (6dB or so) peak at around 1600Hz which is the main breakup mode of the bass driver. This peak comprises distortion and delayed resonances (‘ringing’) and is fairly typical of some Eminence LF drivers. Normal practice is to neutralize such peaks by putting them well out of the passband. These are resonances, not unlike cabinet resonances, and are normally undesirable.

One of the benefits of using a midrange driver is that you get to take these “nasty" breakup frequencies out of the equation and replace them with a nice smooth, clean, uncoloured midrange. There are several other benefits of this arrangement, including directional consistency up to a much higher frequency than the bass driver can manage on its own.

However, because the crossover frequency of the ML112 is at a very high 1500 – 1700 Hz (where you would expect to cross to a 1” compression driver like in Duke’s AudioKinesis system) this speaker gains few of the benefits of a bass/mid design where the transition normally takes place much lower (at around 600Hz). It’s almost as if the midrange driver in this system were being used as tweeter.

The sharp cancellations in the off axis responses show that the crossover design is flawed (the off-axis curves should be smooth). This is also likely to have a negative effect on sound quality in this area.

Finally, also as a result of the crossover design, the impedance curve of this 8-ohm-rated cab drops below nominal at around 1500Hz and drops further to around 4 ohms at 3kHz. This is quite a serious design fault and means that the product does not meet one of its most important specs. Whether you will damage your amplifier by using two of them is anyone's guess but if I were considering laying out money for one of these cabs, I would be happier if I knew the manufacturer had the technical expertise to avoid this kind of problem in the first place.

There’s more, but I think that gives you a few pointers. The main thing I would listen for when auditioning these would be whether I could live with the large resonant peak built into the cab, because it will dominate anything you play through it (and because it’s a resonance, it will be there to some extent even if you try to dial it out). Anyway, I’m sure you’ll all make your own mind up and the final arbiter is your ears. If you like it, get your credit card out and buy one. It’s your money.
[/quote]

Well, I followed it well enough to understand that the measurements need to be squared with hearing the cab.. and as I read it, the reviewer measured and as well as listened.

I am no sure why Stevie is the bad guy in this... he has pointed out a few perceived abnomalies from a tecnhical POV... and IF that is again bourne out by a hearing test, which everyone will do
before buying, I hope...then the buyer can decide if it is applicable or not to their goals.

It doesn't seem a lot different from 5st string spacings...for example... to some it is a big problem, to others it isn't at all

The way I see the interpretation of the measurements is that there is potential for a hole in the sound bewteen one driver and another compounded by x-overs levels...
Now if this offends your ears, then the cab isn't going to work for you..if it doesn't, you'll probably buy a very good cab.

I don't see why an opinion should almost be shouted down.

I don't say Stevie is right or wrong as I'd like to hear the cab for myself to know WHAT I THINK... but I think his opinion and posts in this instance have validity on the basis
of how he has quantified them... not to everyones tastes OR measurements, it seems, but hey ho..!!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1361895223' post='1992617']
I don't see why an opinion should almost be shouted down.
[/quote]Because the measurements are wrong, and along with them any and all opinions based upon them.

[stevie]

The acoustic measurements are perfectly consistent with the description of the box in the review (esp. the crossover to the mid unit at 1500Hz) and with the impedance curve shown. The impedance measurement is completely independent of whatever mic measuring technique is used and is certainly quite accurate.

[Beer of the Bass]

Is a lower than nominal impedance at 3kHz likely to cause much of a problem in a bass guitar application? I get that too-low impedance will cause a higher current draw which could stress the output devices or trigger overcurrent protection in an amp, but surely the bulk of the output will always be in the low hundreds of Hz with a bass guitar signal, making the impedance higher up less critical?
(Note; I'm not claiming any particular authority in questioning this - just speculation from an interested amateur and correction or clarification is quite welcome!)

Edited February 26, 2013 by Beer of the Bass