Vintage MIJ (formerly J@pCr@p) Spotting

[ezbass]

The above post was made at my suggestion, so c’mon you Matsumoto buffs, spill the beans. That body construction puts me in mind of my old Aria ‘lawsuit’ Les Paul.

[Stub Mandrel]

8 minutes ago, ezbass said:

The above post was made at my suggestion, so c’mon you Matsumoto buffs, spill the beans. That body construction puts me in mind of my old Aria ‘lawsuit’ Les Paul.

At a wild, unsubstantiated guess I'd say it was an Eros SG copy... but what do I know?

Allegedly as much favoured by Polly Harvey.

[Bassassin]

I suppose technically it's not the right place for it, but I have a problem with authority anyway.

That's a very nice guitar, with nice era-correct pickup upgrades. It's a Matsumoku-made guitar, which is confirmed by the "Steel Adjustable Neck" neckplate, the arrowhead-shaped truss cover, and the original pickup rings, which are for 3-screw humbuckers. These traits appear together on most early 70s Matsumoku copies of Gibson guitars, and the neckplate was exclusive to that factory.

Age-wise, it's probably 1971 - 1973. Unfortunately the serial numbers on these early 70s Matsumokus appear to be random and there's no reliable way of dating from them. The original pickups would probably have had date codes stamped underneath, so in the event they came with the guitar, those would give a very accurate idea of its age. As it is, the neck style, with rounded fretboard heel and inlays up to the 17th fret are an indicator that it's pre- 1974, and the use of a pin badge  rather than a transfer tells us that it's early 70s.

As the stickers suggest, the pickups are almost certainly DiMarzios, likely Super Distortions, and will have been fitted to replace the original Maxon-branded units, probably late 70s/early 80s. Quick way to check if they are DiMarzios is to stick an allen key in a pole piece - DiMarzios are Imperial, so a metric key won't fit. Alternatively, they should have red/white/black/green/wiring and if you're lucky, PAF stickers underneath.These are pretty sought-after vintage pickups these days.

If I haven't already bored you to death, I can also tell you a little about the brand. Eros was house-brand of London distributor Rosetti, the name seemingly taken from the statue in Piccadilly Circus, which was near to their retail premises. They were broadly good-quality copies of US designs, and initially were sourced from the Matsumoku and Fujigen factories. Later Eros instruments were Korean, and unfortunately not of the same standard.

There is some confusion about the brand itself. Rosetti used "Eros" and "Eros Mark II" for reasons that aren't exactly clear, whilst, even more confusingly, being UK distributor for Italian acoustic guitar brand E-Ros, an entirely unrelated brand made by Fuselli in Recanati, and closely associated with Eko.

And as @Stub Mandrel says, PJ Harvey played an old Eros SG back in the 90s, with her original 3 piece band.

Oi - wake up at the back!

[cambi31]

11 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

I suppose technically it's not the right place for it, but I have a problem with authority anyway.

That's a very nice guitar, with nice era-correct pickup upgrades. It's a Matsumoku-made guitar, which is confirmed by the "Steel Adjustable Neck" neckplate, the arrowhead-shaped truss cover, and the original pickup rings, which are for 3-screw humbuckers. These traits appear together on most early 70s Matsumoku copies of Gibson guitars, and the neckplate was exclusive to that factory.

Age-wise, it's probably 1971 - 1973. Unfortunately the serial numbers on these early 70s Matsumokus appear to be random and there's no reliable way of dating from them. The original pickups would probably have had date codes stamped underneath, so in the event they came with the guitar, those would give a very accurate idea of its age. As it is, the neck style, with rounded fretboard heel and inlays up to the 17th fret are an indicator that it's pre- 1974, and the use of a pin badge  rather than a transfer tells us that it's early 70s.

As the stickers suggest, the pickups are almost certainly DiMarzios, likely Super Distortions, and will have been fitted to replace the original Maxon-branded units, probably late 70s/early 80s. Quick way to check if they are DiMarzios is to stick an allen key in a pole piece - DiMarzios are Imperial, so a metric key won't fit. Alternatively, they should have red/white/black/green/wiring and if you're lucky, PAF stickers underneath.These are pretty sought-after vintage pickups these days.

If I haven't already bored you to death, I can also tell you a little about the brand. Eros was house-brand of London distributor Rosetti, the name seemingly taken from the statue in Piccadilly Circus, which was near to their retail premises. They were broadly good-quality copies of US designs, and initially were sourced from the Matsumoku and Fujigen factories. Later Eros instruments were Korean, and unfortunately not of the same standard.

There is some confusion about the brand itself. Rosetti used "Eros" and "Eros Mark II" for reasons that aren't exactly clear, whilst, even more confusingly, being UK distributor for Italian acoustic guitar brand E-Ros, an entirely unrelated brand made by Fuselli in Recanati, and closely associated with Eko.

And as @Stub Mandrel says, PJ Harvey played an old Eros SG back in the 90s, with her original 3 piece band.

Oi - wake up at the back!

That is absolutely fascinating! The Woman I collected it from told me a little about her late Husband. (who the guitar belonged to for decades) He was a music producer/musician. And recorded alot of local bands of all types of genres in his studio which was in their back garden. I just had to learn more about this guitar after speaking with her.

Edited November 24, 2019 by cambi31

[Bassassin]

After a bit more digging, can tell you it's the same guitar as an Aria 1932. Not sure if the Bigsby is original or not but that & the brand name are the only differences.

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/aria/solid/sg/19xx.html

https://reverb.com/item/28109394-aria-aria-doublecut-1932-1970s-natural

 

 

[cambi31]

10 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

After a bit more digging, can tell you it's the same guitar as an Aria 1932. Not sure if the Bigsby is original or not but that & the brand name are the only differences.

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/aria/solid/sg/19xx.html

https://reverb.com/item/28109394-aria-aria-doublecut-1932-1970s-natural

 

 

They are identical!! Other than name like you say. £480!! Is that a usual sum for something like that? I think I did ok with the £40 I paid for it, if that is the case. 

[Stub Mandrel]

10 minutes ago, cambi31 said:

I think I did ok with the £40 I paid for it

Probably...

[ezbass]

37 minutes ago, cambi31 said:

That is absolutely fascinating! The Woman I collected it from told me a little about her late Husband. (who the guitar belonged to for decades) He was a music producer/musician. And recorded alot of local bands of all types of genres in his studio which was in their back garden. I just had to learn more about this guitar after speaking with her.

I knew the guys here would sort you out. 👏👏👏 Basschat.

[Bassassin]

59 minutes ago, cambi31 said:

They are identical!! Other than name like you say. £480!! Is that a usual sum for something like that? I think I did ok with the £40 I paid for it, if that is the case. 

£40 is a steal, however you look at it! However £480 is wildly optimistic for the Aria - it's probably closer to half that in the real world. The Aria brand makes it a bit more collectable than the same instrument with another name, but I'd think yours is a good 200 quid's worth, particularly with the DiMarzios.

[cambi31]

1 hour ago, Bassassin said:

£40 is a steal, however you look at it! However £480 is wildly optimistic for the Aria - it's probably closer to half that in the real world. The Aria brand makes it a bit more collectable than the same instrument with another name, but I'd think yours is a good 200 quid's worth, particularly with the DiMarzios.

That is a little unexpected! I must admit it is my first ever guitar. There was just something I liked about the look of it. Now I need to learn to play it! 

[prowla]

On 12/11/2019 at 10:54, Bassassin said:

I'm old enough to remember reading an early interview with US stadium-rock plodder Billy Squier being upset by people pronouncing his name as "Billy's Queer".

Boo, and indeed, hoo.

Billy Squier is one of my favourite artists.

I think that comment came about after that really awful video he did.

He did have some chorus singers on one of his albums, called Billy's Choir...

[BreadBin]

I picked this Washburn A10 up today, it's actually pretty amazing! I'm no guitarist, but really like this.

I'm interested to know what sort of value it might have - the only ones I can find for sale are from Japan at ~£500 but that seems like crazy money?

[prowla]

1 hour ago, BreadBin said:

I picked this Washburn A10 up today, it's actually pretty amazing! I'm no guitarist, but really like this.

I'm interested to know what sort of value it might have - the only ones I can find for sale are from Japan at ~£500 but that seems like crazy money?

I like the bass version.

[BreadBin]

1 hour ago, prowla said:

I like the bass version.

Me too 👍

[Bassassin]

17 hours ago, BreadBin said:

Me too 👍

I had one! My first properly good-quality bass back in my teens. Sold it after a couple of years because it looked too "metal" for the band I was in. The folly of youth etc.

I know a bit about the Washburn Stage series - enough to think that £500 is probably not too wildly overvalued for a good original example. I'm guessing you paid a fair bit less!

There are some decent catalogue scans on the Matsumoku.org site:

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/washburn/catalogs/wb_catalogs.html

Although, paradoxically, MIJ Washburns were never made by Matsumoku - they were initially from Yamaki, with production moving to Chushin Gakki after Yamaki shut up shop.

There are some good FB groups where there are people who know these way better than I do - you'll probably be able to find out about serial decoding, manufacturer & possible value:

Washburn Guitars - The Golden Era

Daions Online

The Daion Guitar

The Daion groups are relevant because that was the house-brand of Yamaki Gakki so there is a lot of crossover between the instruments. The Stage series guitars were designed by Daion/Yamaki head designer Hirotsugu Teradaira, who is in contact with some of the group members, & contributes to discussion.

[BreadBin]

Thanks @Bassassin 👍

I paid quite a bit less - right place, right time I guess. The plan was to not like it and punt it on but it plays amazingly, and fits well with my love of all things 80s Washburn.

The S1000 is having a new string retainer made, hence the wonky strings...

[ash]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Active-Aria-Pro-2-II-PB600E-Vintage-Fender-Precision-Special-Copy-Free-Shipping/283702648128?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
 

Never seen one of these before, having owned a genuine P bass Special this looks to be a great clone! 

[Bassassin]

2 hours ago, ash said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Active-Aria-Pro-2-II-PB600E-Vintage-Fender-Precision-Special-Copy-Free-Shipping/283702648128?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
 

Never seen one of these before, having owned a genuine P bass Special this looks to be a great clone! 

Definitely never seen this before. I'd guess it's Japanese domestic market - export Aria copies disappeared completely by the late 70s, like most other MIJ brands.

I suspect the pickup's a DiMarzio lookalike, like on most MIJ basses from this era. Don't think DiMarzio ever used white covers, did they?

[No. 8 Wire]

Previously deleted link back again - interesting interview with the bass player from the Japanese band Godiego (remember the Monkey magic TV Series).  Has some interesting details about western musicians having some input into early Japanese instruments.

https://reverb.com/uk/news/interview-godiegos-steve-fox?locale=en-GB

Edited March 29, 2020 by No. 8 Wire

[Bassassin]

So he "helped to design" an exact copy of a Fender Precision? And Fender & Gibson sued Fujigen & Kanda Shokai? Right.

Well - it was a long time ago, maybe his memory isn't what it once was.

[No. 8 Wire]

1 hour ago, Bassassin said:

So he "helped to design" an exact copy of a Fender Precision? And Fender & Gibson sued Fujigen & Kanda Shokai? Right.

Well - it was a long time ago, maybe his memory isn't what it once was.

That's a bit harsh.  He implies in the article that as a player he helped with playability, that's still design detail. He says it's a minor role -  he wasn't even paid.  And people use the term 'lawsuit' in a pretty colloquial way, it doesn't have to mean papers filed and a court decision in everyone's mind.

I didn't put the article up so this player could be treated with cynicism in the time honoured internet tradition, he's a respected Japanese-American musician telling some anecdotes from the early days of Japanese hard rock.  

I've deleted the article, because I in no way want to be responsible for initiating discourteous remarks against this great guy.

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by No. 8 Wire

[oldslapper]

1 hour ago, Bassassin said:

So he "helped to design" an exact copy of a Fender Precision? And Fender & Gibson sued Fujigen & Kanda Shokai? Right.

Well - it was a long time ago, maybe his memory isn't what it once was.

Can’t see the article now Jon, but I thought he said he’d helped with testing and design of the pickups and something to do with hardware?. 🙂 

[Bassassin]

3 hours ago, No. 8 Wire said:

I've deleted the article, because I in no way want to be responsible for initiating discourteous remarks against this great guy.

 

I don't think you should have deleted the article, although IMO a thread about instruments for sale on Ebay wasn't necessarily the right place for it.

Regarding comments about "lawsuits" - it's difficult enough with the amount of misinformation online, I suppose I found it particularly galling that someone involved in the business at the time would contribute to perpetuating the myth. For clarity, Fender never sued anyone over anything, and certainly not Kanda, with whom they formed a business partnership in Fender Japan. Gibson's parent company threatened legal action against Hoshino Gakki's US operation, Elger Hoshino, but no action took place.

I'm sorry but this is something that rubs me up the wrong way - I admit I was probably a bit harsh about his input on the Greco bass!

Would you re-post the article please - it's otherwise interesting and I'd like to check out the band in question.

[No. 8 Wire]

25 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

I don't think you should have deleted the article, although IMO a thread about instruments for sale on Ebay wasn't necessarily the right place for it.

Regarding comments about "lawsuits" - it's difficult enough with the amount of misinformation online, I suppose I found it particularly galling that someone involved in the business at the time would contribute to perpetuating the myth. For clarity, Fender never sued anyone over anything, and certainly not Kanda, with whom they formed a business partnership in Fender Japan. Gibson's parent company threatened legal action against Hoshino Gakki's US operation, Elger Hoshino, but no action took place.

I'm sorry but this is something that rubs me up the wrong way - I admit I was probably a bit harsh about his input on the Greco bass!

Would you re-post the article please - it's otherwise interesting and I'd like to check out the band in question.

Thanks for the generous reply - I've reposted the link, quite a bit online about about the band Godiego - they are still active I believe - lots of side projects.  Enjoy checking them out.

[pete.young]

More 'lawsuit' twaddle. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-collectors-vintage-1975-EB-3-Electric-Bass-Guitar/324125443973?hash=item4b7761c785:g:27YAAOSwdppeiHnx

Unfortunately not rare enough.