Vintage MIJ (formerly J@pCr@p) Spotting

[Bassassin]

This isn't a thread that pops up very often any more - probably because there are fewer & fewer interesting basses of any sort on the old Feebay these days.

However - when it does, I can't help feeling a little bit uncomfortable about the title I gave it when I started it. It was originally a tongue-in-cheek nod to old jokey biker rivalry from the 70s & 80s - JapCrap, BritSh!t, YankW@nk etc - but from the perspective of 12-odd years later, it feels a bit off.

So - am I just being a whiney, oversensitive, woker-than-thou little snowflake, or should I change it?

[BreadBin]

How about MIJ spotted?

[hooky_lowdown]

I think the title of this thread is correct. There are good/excellent MIJ gear, and there is low quality MIJ gear aka japcrap. There is a clear line, which seems to get blurred more and more by peeps simply lumping everything together under MIJ.

I've owned 70s Maya's, Columbus', Antonia's - all of them were rubbish IMHO.

[oldslapper]

Sorry mate, just responding to previous post. 

I guess one mans jap crap is another’s diamond as @hooky_lowdown has intimated. My Maya was great build, maybe I have low expectations 😂

[Bassassin]

1 hour ago, hooky_lowdown said:

I think the title of this thread is correct. There are good/excellent MIJ gear, and there is low quality MIJ gear aka japcrap. There is a clear line, which seems to get blurred more and more by peeps simply lumping everything together under MIJ.

I've owned 70s Maya's, Columbus', Antonia's - all of them were rubbish IMHO.

That was never the intention though. The title's tongue-in-cheek & by no means only meant to be for low-end MIJ dross. Although that's quite welcome.

All of the Japanese factories manufacturing during the 70s & 80s produced a range of instruments from starter to pro level. The joke was that back then they were all considered junk & somehow lesser than US brands, even when they weren't. This thread's meant to be for all vintage (60s/70s/80s) MIJ, not just the crap.

Fwiw Maya & Columbus were from the same factory, Chushin Gakki, and the low/mid models were the same. Maya was a Japanese distributor's (Rokkomann) brand, whereas Columbus was the midrange brand of FCN Music, in between Satellite and Kimbara. So logically there will be more good-quality Mayas.

[hooky_lowdown]

1 hour ago, oldslapper said:

Sorry mate, just responding to previous post. 

I guess one mans jap crap is another’s diamond as @hooky_lowdown has intimated. My Maya was great build, maybe I have low expectations 😂

I had a Maya jazz, build was fine, however it weighted a tonne, hardware didn't stay in tune, pup's were very low output, felt like I was always fighting it to play.

Maybe the P's were better. 

[hooky_lowdown]

2 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

That was never the intention though. The title's tongue-in-cheek & by no means only meant to be for low-end MIJ dross. Although that's quite welcome.

All of the Japanese factories manufacturing during the 70s & 80s produced a range of instruments from starter to pro level. The joke was that back then they were all considered junk & somehow lesser than US brands, even when they weren't. This thread's meant to be for all vintage (60s/70s/80s) MIJ, not just the crap.

Fwiw Maya & Columbus were from the same factory, Chushin Gakki, and the low/mid models were the same. Maya was a Japanese distributor's (Rokkomann) brand, whereas Columbus was the midrange brand of FCN Music, in between Satellite and Kimbara. So logically there will be more good-quality Mayas.

I thought it a good idea to list all the "japcrap", so if peeps were looking to buy they'd know what avoid.

As I say, saying something is MIJ doesn't mean it's any good. Most know ibanez, cimar, tokai etc all made superb gear.

Having a thread which lumps all 70s MIJ gear just convolutes what is good and what isn't. Not sure how this helps anyone?

[Bassassin]

2 minutes ago, hooky_lowdown said:

I thought it a good idea to list all the "japcrap", so if peeps were looking to buy they'd know what avoid.

As I say, saying something is MIJ doesn't mean it's any good. Most know ibanez, cimar, tokai etc all made superb gear.

Having a thread which lumps all 70s MIJ gear just convolutes what is good and what isn't. Not sure how this helps anyone?

You said you had a "crap" Antoria. That suggests you don't know that MIJ Antorias were made by Fujigen Gakki and were identical, right down to the model number, to the equivalent Ibanez model. Cimar was actually the budget brand of Hoshino Gakki Ten, their upper-tier brand being Ibanez. Cimars came from a different manufacturer and many of them really weren't very good.

Which illustrates that "most people" don't know good from not-so-good vintage MIJ instruments!

Not sure re-purposing this thread to be a "warning - this is junk!" portal is that useful, as I said in my earlier post, there's not too much old MIJ stuff on Ebay these days.

[oldslapper]

I tend to use this thread as a “heads up” to a bargain as well as a bit of fun. With Jon’s knowledge it tends to be an informative read, as well as spotting a potential “find”. 

Had two Maya fretless P’s both consistently good.

Also there’s not much to get wrong with a fretless P. No frets to bugger up. Only 1 pup, basic controls.

No edging on necks that tended to be on old MIJ jazz copies.

[Bassassin]

4 minutes ago, oldslapper said:

I tend to use this thread as a “heads up” to a bargain as well as a bit of fun. With Jon’s knowledge it tends to be an informative read, as well as spotting a potential “find”. 

Had two Maya fretless P’s both consistently good.

Also there’s not much to get wrong with a fretless P. No frets to bugger up. Only 1 pup, basic controls.

No edging on necks that tended to be on old MIJ jazz copies.

And no cheat lines - so no good to me!

Interestingly in my experience even the lowest-end stuff would tend to have decent fret work, with most corners being cut on materials & electronics. A lot of the cheapos play OK after a decent set-up - wish I'd known that when I was starting.

[Happy Jack]

11 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

And no cheat lines - so no good to me!

But it's worth remembering that it was the Ibanez fretless P that introduced me to the idea of fret-edge markers ... absolute genius.

Incidentally, as a biker who started with a BSA in the mid-70s and then went Japanese for a couple of decades, I never had any trouble with the JapCrap designation, and I fully appreciated the irony.

 

[Stub Mandrel]

38 minutes ago, oldslapper said:

Also there’s not much to get wrong with a fretless P. No frets to bugger up.

Mine had a tiny raised spot just below the fifth fret position on the A-string, gave a slight buzz when playing a D. Barely detectable with a straight edge, a few seconds of scraping with a scalpel sorted it, probably only noticeable because I'm a low-action freak.

[pete.young]

About time this thread got a bump.

Interesting Antoria P and a good cause - wonder what horrors are lurking under those ash trays? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antoria-Electric-Bass-Guitar-Made-in-Japan-With-carry-case/362776228672?hash=item547725f340:g:dbYAAOSwePpdnca2

A CIMAR (probably not Ibanez!) P, bizarre thumb rest  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/80s-Cimar-Ibanez-Precision-Electric-Bass-Sunburst-Guitar-Made-in-JAPAN/233362817203?hash=item36558200b3:g:bYEAAOSwOZ5di7vhttps://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antoria-Electric-Bass-Guitar-Made-in-Japan-With-carry-case/362776228672?hash=item547725f340:g:dbYAAOSwePpdnca2

Cheap Westone Thunder 1a https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Westone-Thunder-1-A-Bass-black-good-condition/323940864171?hash=item4b6c6150ab:g:B4cAAOSwK~ldm4Cz

A 'vintage' Kay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-KAY-K-20-B-Electric-Bass-Guitar-late-1960s-early-1970s/352816654527?hash=item522582e8bf:g:3-MAAOSwQ5Ndm1eW

 

 

[hooky_lowdown]

8 minutes ago, pete.young said:

A 'vintage' Kay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-KAY-K-20-B-Electric-Bass-Guitar-late-1960s-early-1970s/352816654527?hash=item522582e8bf:g:3-MAAOSwQ5Ndm1eW

Kay's were generally made in Taiwan, and in the 70s/80s.

I find it sad that people widely advertise Kay's as being made in Japan or dating from the 60s. Just not true. 😥

 

[pete.young]

To be fair, that was my mistake - it wasn't advertised as Japanese, Taiwanese or anything else. I thought it was interesting, even if it isn't Japanese. Is it possible that some of these 'Kay' instruments were made by Teisco and re-branded for the US market?

Edited October 12, 2019 by pete.young

[hooky_lowdown]

2 hours ago, pete.young said:

Is it possible that some of these 'Kay' instruments were made by Teisco and re-branded for the US market?

No. 😀

[Bassassin]

14 hours ago, hooky_lowdown said:

No. 😀

Well, actually...

What we know is that Teisco (or probably Kawai, who acquired Teisco in 1967) established a factory in Taiwan, which produced instruments under the Teisco brand. It is the same factory that made the Taiwanese Kays in the early 70s, so these instruments are closely related. You'll see the same ID stickers and similar model numbers to actual MIJ Teiscos too.

Kay is an interesting brand subsequent to the demise of the original US-made instruments. It had international distribution (hence being common in the UK) and sourced instruments from numerous suppliers - so there are MIJ Kays (not too common) as well as Taiwanese. Production later went to Cort in Korea, resulting in a pretty broad range, including the nice quality through-neck originals that turned up in the early 80s. I've also seen East German-made Kay acoustics,which were probably made by Musima.

[Bassassin]

17 hours ago, pete.young said:

About time this thread got a bump.

Interesting Antoria P and a good cause - wonder what horrors are lurking under those ash trays? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antoria-Electric-Bass-Guitar-Made-in-Japan-With-carry-case/362776228672?hash=item547725f340:g:dbYAAOSwePpdnca2

A CIMAR (probably not Ibanez!) P, bizarre thumb rest  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/80s-Cimar-Ibanez-Precision-Electric-Bass-Sunburst-Guitar-Made-in-JAPAN/233362817203?hash=item36558200b3:g:bYEAAOSwOZ5di7v

Under them ashtrays will be a set of 8-pole Maxon single-coils, just like these:

Many of these have date codes on the back but I'm guessing these won't - this Antoria's a very, very early example judging by the tuners - '71, maybe as early as 1970. I think the Maxon codes start from '72. Looking at this, it's in exceptional condition for its age. Hope it goes to someone who appreciates what it is.

And no, the Cimar's definitely not Ibanez - like Cimar, Ibanez is a brand, not a manufacturer so it can't be. Both brands were owned by Hoshino Gakki Ten, but I don't think the Cimar was made by Fujigen, who made Ibanez at the time. I've had a few Cimars and there are significant differences & things you wouldn't see on a Fujigen. Age-wise it's from about 1980, and is likely a pretty decent bass.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Bassassin
borked link

[hooky_lowdown]

41 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

Well, actually...

What we know is that Teisco (or probably Kawai, who acquired Teisco in 1967) established a factory in Taiwan, which produced instruments under the Teisco brand. It is the same factory that made the Taiwanese Kays in the early 70s, so these instruments are closely related. You'll see the same ID stickers and similar model numbers to actual MIJ Teiscos too.

@Bassassin as you replied to my post to pete.young about possible Kay basses (acquired brand name established in 1969) being made by Teisco (closed in 1967), are you saying there are Kay basses made by Teisco brand.

I simply said 'no', are you saying there were?

[Bassassin]

4 hours ago, hooky_lowdown said:

@Bassassin as you replied to my post to pete.young about possible Kay basses (acquired brand name established in 1969) being made by Teisco (closed in 1967), are you saying there are Kay basses made by Teisco brand.

I simply said 'no', are you saying there were?

Broadly, yes - some instruments sold as Teisco were also sold as Kay, the same as they were sold branded as Top Twenty, for example. Of course it doesn't follow that all Kay-branded guitars would also be available as Teisco, this sort-of-Rick copy in question being a good example.

We do have to distinguish between manufacturer and brand though, at the time these were made, Teisco existed only as a brand, having been acquired by Kawai some years earlier, so from that perspective all post '67 Teiscos & Kays were rebranded Kawais, presumably including those produced in Taiwan.

Edited October 13, 2019 by Bassassin
pedantic detailry

[prowla]

This is like a specialist subject on Mastermind...

[bassaussie]

17 hours ago, Bassassin said:

And no, the Cimar's definitely not Ibanez - like Cimar, Ibanez is a brand, not a manufacturer so it can't be. Both brands were owned by Hoshino Gakki Ten, but I don't think the Cimar was made by Fujigen, who made Ibanez at the time. I've had a few Cimars and there are significant differences & things you wouldn't see on a Fujigen. Age-wise it's from about 1980, and is likely a pretty decent bass.

Could you clarify something for me. One thing I notice with Cimars is that they used two headstock designs that were identical to headstocks used by Ibanez. What's the background on this?

The first is the one in the Ebay link from pete.young. I think Cimar had some guitars and basses called the "Stinger" which they used this headstock on, and Ibanez used it on very early Blazers (and generally, there's a distinct similarity between the Stinger and early Blazers).

Later, they changed to a headstock that is well known as being the later Blazer style, also used on Roadsters.

I found this page, which shows the headstocks I'm talking about.

http://www.guitar-letter.de/Knowledge/History/DieGeschichteDesJazzBassBeiCimar.htm

Go to section #5. Also note the wonderful stringing on the bass with the blue strings!

[Bassassin]

8 hours ago, bassaussie said:

Could you clarify something for me. One thing I notice with Cimars is that they used two headstock designs that were identical to headstocks used by Ibanez. What's the background on this?

The first is the one in the Ebay link from pete.young. I think Cimar had some guitars and basses called the "Stinger" which they used this headstock on, and Ibanez used it on very early Blazers (and generally, there's a distinct similarity between the Stinger and early Blazers).

Later, they changed to a headstock that is well known as being the later Blazer style, also used on Roadsters.

I found this page, which shows the headstocks I'm talking about.

http://www.guitar-letter.de/Knowledge/History/DieGeschichteDesJazzBassBeiCimar.htm

Go to section #5. Also note the wonderful stringing on the bass with the blue strings!

Thanks for that link, a good compendium of the Fender derived Cimars - oddly, apart from one. This should be of interest...

The Cimar Stinger range was exactly the same as the short-lived Mk 1 Blazers, identical apart from the badge. These are Fujigen builds - can confirm this as I have a Mk1 Blazer, it has a Fgn serial and uses most of the same components as later Blazers and Roadsters.

Why Hoshino sold these identical instruments simultaneously under both their premium and second-tier brands is anyone's guess. I'd speculate that the incorporation of Ibanez design features into the Cimar range was an attempt to associate the two, perhaps to boost the prestige (and therefore the sales) of the Cimar brand. Later Cimars (post MIJ production, I think) were marketed as "Cimar by Ibanez" but with the ones we're looking at, there's no associated branding on either the instruments or the marketing materials.

Interesting that the page you linked to is German - seems Cimars were much more widely marketed in Germany than the UK, most of the Cimar catalogue scans come from Meinl.de, who distributed Cimar & Ibanez in Germany. A reason for this might be that Ibanez' UK distributor at the time, Charles Summerfield Ltd, actually sourced their own CSL range through Hoshino - and they were re-badged Cimars, right down to the Blazer/Stinger headstocks.

As an owner/previous owner of two Cimars, one CSL and a Mk1 Blazer, I've always been curious about the Cimar brand. There are various 70s catalogues for the original copy-era Cimars, and they do depict a comprehensive range, from basic starter instruments to high-end replica level stuff. Looking at these I'm inclined to think that initially Cimar was entirely separate from Ibanez, and merely shared distribution through Hoshino. It's likely that subsequently Hoshino acquired the brand and developed it specifically as a budget Ibanez line. Would love to know which factories made them, but so far I've found little to go on.

[bassaussie]

That's great that you put the two ads side by side, I'd wanted to do the same, but got lazy! But it clearly shows they were the same instruments.

I remember the first time I saw Cimar in Australia. I clearly remember the Blazer type headstock with the Ibanez styled logo (not the Mk I, the later style), and the salesman saying "this is a budget line from Ibanez". I know why this stuck with me, because this was just after I started playing, and a Blazer guitar or bass was what most kids wanted when they couldn't afford a Fender. This would've been around 1981, 1982, something like that, so that somewhat matches with the dates that website has. I think it might've been the black Bass (2210) in #6, because I remember thinking how strange it was to put a P bass pickup in a Jazz bass body (as a 13 year old kid I clearly wasn't the most lateral thinking when it came to bass designs!!). I know Cimar also released a guitar that loosely looked like the famous Charvel star design. If you do a Google search for "Cimar Star guitar" it's easy to find, but I don't know the model number.

I saw other examples of Cimars over the years, but I don't think they were hugely common in Australia.

[pete.young]

A lovely example of a Greco Les Paul bass copy. I'd really like this but I think the price is a bit optimistic.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Japanese-Greco-Les-Paul-CTM-Bass-Guitar-EGB-850-Returns-Accepted/202646842968?hash=item2f2eb16e58:g:z0MAAOSwetBb1Wi~