Orange Terror Bass DI

[JD1]

Hi

Not a repair issue as such, but mods, please feel free to move to the repairs / technical if you fell it sits better in there.

This is related to something that cropped in the reviews. First gig with the Orange on new years eve. It was a relatively low volume restaurant gig so I didn't need to DI. However just out of curiosity I checked the DI during the sound check and the signal was really hot - i.e. desk was clipping with the gain set very low.

I really want to use this at bigger gigs where I'll be going through the rig and don't want to faff on with a mic.

Is there any way I can attenuate the signal? E.g. would a DI box help - and if so, which one?

I'd appreciate any advice folks.

Cheers

John

[Happy Jack]

Were you running the DI into a Mic channel or a Line/Mic channel?

[wateroftyne]

FWIW, I had a Warwick Tubepath with the same 'problem' - the DI was unbelieveably hot. I emailed Warwick, and they got straight back with a simple solution, which was to solder a 22kOhms resistor parallel to the one there already, or replace it completely with a single 11kOhm resistor.

Obviously, this isn't 100% relevant to your problem, but if you email Orange there might be an equally simple mod...

[Stewart]

These are cheap and useful:

[url="http://www.studiospares.com/Mic-Accessories/Pro-10Db-Inline-Attenuator/invt/568570"]Attenuator[/url]

They do 10, 20, 30 & 40 dB models

Alternatively Shure do a switched unit:

[url="http://www.studiospares.com/Mic-Accessories/Shure-A15AS-Inline-Attenuator/invt/423760"]Shure attenuator[/url]

[JD1]

Thanks folks - not sure what channel / line he put me into - tried various and they ranged from hot to hotter

I'll look into this a bit further and maybe try and contact Orange - however those attenuators look like a quick fix.

I just can't understand why companies like Warwick and Orange could get this wrong - do they not test stuff?

[Stewart]

The only really sensible approach is to have a variable output DI, as Gallien Krueger do with their RB heads...

[JD1]

Yes - my main gigging amp for the last few years is a GK so I've not had any problems DI related or otherwise. Still got the GK but got the Orange for a grittier tone for rock gigs.

[d-basser]

[quote name='Stewart' post='698610' date='Jan 2 2010, 11:15 AM']These are cheap and useful:

[url="http://www.studiospares.com/Mic-Accessories/Pro-10Db-Inline-Attenuator/invt/568570"]Attenuator[/url]

They do 10, 20, 30 & 40 dB models

Alternatively Shure do a switched unit:

[url="http://www.studiospares.com/Mic-Accessories/Shure-A15AS-Inline-Attenuator/invt/423760"]Shure attenuator[/url][/quote]

which value of attenuator would you recommend?

[Silent Fly]

[quote name='JD1' post='698619' date='Jan 2 2010, 11:29 AM'](...)
I just can't understand why companies like Warwick and Orange could get this wrong - do they not test stuff?[/quote]
They do but the problem is not in the signal produced by the amp.

The majority of the DI outputs of the amps are at [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level"]line-level[/url]. Mixing desks XLR inputs are at microphone level.

Microphone level is up to 60 dB lower than line-level. In other words, mixing desks amplify 60 dB more than required by a line level connection.

The problem you are experiencing is a signal level matching issue - it is not related to the amp or the mixing desk.

In practical terms, the fact that the amp DI delivers a line level signal instead of a mic level signal is a good thing. If you need a line level signal (e.g. for a recording interface) it is already available. If you need to connect the amp to a mic-level device, you just need a simple attenuator.

If the amp was delivering a mic level signal, in order to amplify to line-level you would need a preamplifier - a much more expensive device that inevitably would introduce noise.

[quote name='Stewart' post='698648' date='Jan 2 2010, 12:21 PM']The only really sensible approach is to have a variable output DI, as Gallien Krueger do with their RB heads...[/quote]
+1

Which is why I put a variable XLR output in my preamps.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Silent Fly

[obbm]

[quote name='Silent Fly' post='699323' date='Jan 3 2010, 11:16 AM']They do but the problem is not in the signal produced by the amp.

The majority of the DI outputs of the amps are at [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_level"]line-level[/url]. Mixing desks XLR inputs are at microphone level.

Microphone level is up to 60 dB lower than line-level. In other words, mixing desks amplify 60 dB more than required by a line level connection.

The problem you are experiencing is a signal level matching issue - it is not related to the amp or the mixing desk.

In practical terms, the fact that the amp DI delivers a line level signal instead of a mic level signal is a good thing. If you need a line level signal (e.g. for a recording interface) it is already available. If you need to connect the amp to a mic-level device, you just need a simple attenuator.

If the amp was delivering a mic level signal, in order to amplify to line-level you would need a preamplifier - a much more expensive device that inevitably would introduce noise.[/quote]

Totally agree. "Professional" mixers are capable of handling mic or line on their channel XLR input. Even my Soundcraft Folio could.

I suspect the problem lies in the hands of an inexperienced sound operative who doesn't know how, or is too idle or frightened, to adjust the levels correctly.

[wateroftyne]

Wot he said ^^^

What you'll find is that most lower-end desks don't have pads on the input gain, so line-level signals are too hot.

[cd_david]

Most desks even budget ones "should" be able to cope with line and mic levels at xlr input! Like previous advice states its most likely the engineer, who if he had a problem should have provided you with a DI box himself, after all thats his job.

If your problem is of concern to you i wouldnt mod the amp like WOT suggest, just make a FEMALE to MALE, short XLR lead with the resistor across the hot pin and it keeps th amp original and avoids you voiding the warranty by soldering the insides.

[JD1]

Cheers for the advice folks. The NYE gig in question was just a small desk and a couple of tops for vocals and keys - and the operative in question despite being a fantastic musician is to my knowledge not known to be an experienced sound engineer Furthermore it was a very quick test before we put the punters off their starters.

I have a rock gig on Friday with a proper rig, and the chap knows his stuff (WOT - you know Dave and its at the Maggie if you're at a loose end) so we should get to the bottom of it. I'll have my GK as a back up and if it transpires I need an attenuator for future gigs with the Orange then it's not going to break the bank.

On the GK, I've always run the DI level at or around 12:00 (I think it's -15dB) (generally post eq) and never had any complaints. I'm assuming that turning the DI level on the GK fully clockwise would give me the equivalent of line level? If so, does that mean that should I need an attenuator, then one rated at anything between 10 and 20 dB would be OK?

Thanks again!

[JD1]

Anyone got a view on what attenuator to get?

[wateroftyne]

Can't help you with that, but I might pop along on Friday...

[Stewart]

[quote name='JD1' post='701020' date='Jan 4 2010, 09:47 PM']Anyone got a view on what attenuator to get?[/quote]

Depends... if you're dropping from line level to suit a mic preamp (a very bad idea, but...) you'd probably need 50dB or so really

A 10 or 20dB would be a good thing to have handy, I reckon

[JD1]

Be great to see you WOT!

Yes Stewart, I'm inclined to agree it might be useful to have one of these attenuators in my back pocket anyway.

[baixo]

Hi,

I got the 40db attenuator from StudioSpares (only £4.34 + VAT), and that has done the trick. I used it on my little home mixer which only has mic level XLR inputs and I have not noticed any impact on the sound quality (sounded great with my headphones last night).

From now on the 40db attenuator will live on the pocket of the Orange Bass Terror carry case, and should get me out of trouble if I ever have issues with the DI signal being too hot for some desks.

Joao

[JD1]

Thanks Joao / folks.

Purchased said 40 db attenuator from Studio Spares. Used it at a gig tonight and worked a treat.

John

[tonyf]

[quote name='baixo' post='727529' date='Jan 28 2010, 02:18 PM']Hi,

I got the 40db attenuator from StudioSpares (only £4.34 + VAT), and that has done the trick. I used it on my little home mixer which only has mic level XLR inputs and I have not noticed any impact on the sound quality (sounded great with my headphones last night).

From now on the 40db attenuator will live on the pocket of the Orange Bass Terror carry case, and should get me out of trouble if I ever have issues with the DI signal being too hot for some desks.

Joao[/quote]

Thanks to all for the heads up on the DI "problem". I've got the first outing of my Bass Terror at the end of the month and I've just ordered the attenuator from StudioSpares. Ultimately, better to have one just incase there's an issue.

Tony