Barefaced T'Vintage Review.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='686225' date='Dec 16 2009, 12:27 PM']As I've said before, I was suprised Shockwave posted this before it was all resolved.

Airing dirty laundy in public doesn't help anyone, especially a start-up like Alex who, at this time, doesn't have a solid reputation to fall back on.

Had it not been resolved satisfactorily, by all means... flame away. But as it stands, IMO there was still time for Alex to put things right. I think he should have been given a chance.

As for the veiled criticism of how he moderates his own forum - in public, by a moderator...

Disappointing.[/quote]

Everyone i have talked to in my messenger list agreed that i had been more then patient during the process. The problems had been resolved or laid to rest when i recieved my replacement cab, the deal was concluded and i gave an honest view on my opinion of the service and cab. As i mentioned before i do not treat small manufacturers or freinds of the forum any differently to big multinational corporations, both should provide good service. In fact i feel i have been more patient then most, as other people have given running commentary as to how their various deals were going sour (Read Peds Roland problem). I waited until after the transaction had been completed to air my views. Just because Alex is a member on this forum, does not give him immunity from a balanced review.

A startup company should succeed on a good product and service. Say we have a small startup company making poor quality pens or stationary, they dont work as intended or the service given to customers was terrible, Should we defend that company because they dont have a reputation to fall back on and its a startup? Because thats what one of your statements say to me. Luckily Alex does not make a consistantly poor product or give poor service but like everything in life, there can be inconsistancies. I am sure Barefaced will carry on regardless of this review. Its a good product, that does exactly what it says on tin and i have stated from the start that it was a one off problem.

As to the last comment, people on here have criticised how i moderate forums in public and private from moderators and general membership alike, i never asked for an apology as i accept them as faults of mine. For what its worth, i apologise for the critisicm. Though i dont see why a normal forum member be able to question a moderators actions, but not a fellow moderator (Who knows the job better)

To reiterate. Considering the problems with the first cab, and the fact that i got a replacement, means the problem i had was resolved, but it still doesant mean i should cover up the fact there was a problem in the first place.

Edit: If airing dirty laundry in public = giving negatives in a review then thats news to me! If i didnt say anything about the "dirty laundry" as you put it, how could my review be accurate and morally correct?

[Wil]

+1 to that, and well done for writing a balanced review even when you knew there was likely to be a backlash.

[Shockwave]

Bugger, i just remembered, sorry wateroftyne, i keep thinking your still a moderator! Post edited. I apologise

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='686362' date='Dec 16 2009, 02:43 PM']Remember you have just done the same thing to me but in a more overt way, Criticising a moderator in public... by a moderator.[/quote]
I haven't been a mod for months. Keep up.

I just think if you'd spoke to Alex before all this, he might have advised you to wait for the speakers to loosen up, first. Amongst other things.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='686383' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:04 PM']I haven't been a mod for months. Keep up.

I just think if you'd spoke to Alex before all this, he might have advised you to wait for the speakers to loosen up, first. Amongst other things.[/quote]

Yeah look a couple of posts back, already apologised, keep up

I already acknowledged that the speakers need loosening up, so that part of the review can be disreguarded as i already admitted.

As to how i handled the other things, well that a difference of opinion.


REMEMBER GUYS, The replacement cab is fine! Alex has been very accomodating, It was just unfortunate that the original cab had problems which Alex himself has admitted to. Its just a bit unfortunate the thread has blown out of proportion, which i admit i am largely responsible for. But i have to defend my actions, i felt like the general forum populace should have been aware of the ENTIRE transaction. Even if Alex tried everything to rectify the situation, i still would have mentioned the initial problem, as it wouldnt have been an honest review otherwise.

Besides, if it wasent me that brought it up then someone else would have eventually. People should remember whilst i am a moderator, i am also a normal guy too, and people should view this review as from the point of view of a normal forum member.

[paul h]

Thread summary...

Dodgy handles, not satisfied with tone. Speakers need playing in a bit so the jury is out. Took a bit too much effort to sort out. Bit of bad feeling generated.

And in usual basschat style this has been interspersed with people being happy to hear that some body was not happy with a product.(??? Still don't get it.) A few little personal digs here and there and somebody even managed to mention finnbass.

So, no change here then.

[alexclaber]

A few things: As anyone that has contacted me to express an interest in buying a cab will know, I ask a lot of questions and provide a lot of advice on how to get the sound you want. That advice doesn't stop when you receive the cab, in fact it's even more important then that the customer learns how to get the optimum performance during the trial period so they can make the right decision. Maybe I don't always make that clear but that's the way it is. I've been advising bassists on how to best use their amplification, effects and instrument for a lot longer than I've been selling bass cabs, it's something I enjoy doing and something I'm good at.

I'm not interested in selling bass cabs that are deemed to only sound ok but have people still use them because they're light and loud. I'm fairly unlikely to sell anyone a cab which won't reproduce the sound they want but it does happen occasionally, usually due to the perils of the english language in describing sound, which is now why I advise people to send me links to clips of bass sounds they're after.

Yes, there was a serious QC problem with the first cab's handles. But I refute that the cabs are flimsy, I strongly believe that's a hangover from the longheld heavy=tough perception. And I also refute that the Vintage can't do huge lows and I know it can also put out a ton of angry dirty midrange if you put the right signal in - and that's where it helps to come directly to me for advice! Yes, everyone's got an opinion on how do get your 'perfect' sound, but when you're buying a cab from me you're also paying for my expertise - take advantage of it!

And regarding the service nightmares, I don't have tons of stock sitting around and if Rob had done as I'd originally suggested and waited for me to get a replacement to him before I collected the original problem cab then he'd have not only saved himself that shipping cost but also those wasted hours fiddling with the cab himself (bear in mind that doing so would arguably void any legal warranty) and not had those many days when he didn't have a cab at all. If a similar situation ever happens again (which probability dictates it has to at some point) then I shall insist:

1. Don't try to fix it yourself.
2. Wait for a replacement to arrive.
3. Let that same courier take the original cab away.

Obviously if the cab doesn't work then the replacement will be sorted much more urgently - but this cab did, it just had two dodgy handles - and it still had one good handle on the top and wheels so was perfectly usable as a stop-gap.

I look forward to an update to this review when either Rob has all his money back or he is thrilled with the tone of the cab in a proper high SPL band environment.

Alex

[chris_b]

[quote name='david_l_perry' post='686354' date='Dec 16 2009, 02:34 PM']....One thing that has caused a problem for my perception (and I know lots of the guys who tried out Alex's cab at the moffat bass bash) was that many people on this forum do make out that Alex's cabs are the best thing since sliced bread. Any post about 'looking for a new lightweight cab' has the response 'barefaced'....its almost the done thing....[/quote]
So what are we supposed to suggest when opinions are sought for a light, loud and less expensive cab? Bergantino is too expensive, Aguilar is too heavy, and I don't like EBS and Markbass so I won't be recommending them! If you think other makes should be recommended, then recommend them. People do nothing then complain that the advice is skewed! These are only suggestions and, as always, all advice should be treated carefully. Everyone should make up their own minds but as more people seem to like Barefaced cabs than don't I don't feel I’m out of order in recommending them to anyone who asks.

[Shockwave]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='686399' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:19 PM']Yes, there was a serious QC problem with the first cab's handles.

But I refute that the cabs are flimsy,[/quote]

I think i should have stated that i would be surprised that they would take as much external abuse as traditional cabs. My fault i am sorry.

[quote]And regarding the service nightmares, I don't have tons of stock sitting around and if Rob had done as I'd originally suggested and waited for me to get a replacement to him before I collected the original problem cab then he'd have not only saved himself that shipping cost[/quote]

Thats what i would have done, had you not say you could get a replacement to me out that same week.

[quote]but also those wasted hours fiddling with the cab himself (bear in mind that doing so would arguably void any legal warranty) and not had those many days when he didn't have a cab at all.[/quote]

But you yourself in that initial reply to my e-mail after i said i had a problem with the handles said that you were sending out replacement parts to me, you also stated that you were sending the appropriate instuctions so i could fix it myself. you didnt suggest to just send it straight back until after i spent hours fiddling with the cab and reported my findings.

[quote name='alexclaber' post='686399' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:19 PM']If a similar situation ever happens again (which probability dictates it has to at some point) then I shall insist:

1. Don't try to fix it yourself.
2. Wait for a replacement to arrive.
3. Let that same courier take the original cab away.[/quote]

Probably a good idea

[david_l_perry]

[quote name='chris_b' post='686402' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:21 PM']...Aguilar is too heavy...[/quote]

For me my last GS 112s where a very easy one hand lift (and I should have kept them.... ). Even my current 'heavy' EA 112's are a comfy one hand lift.....

Of course I dont want to carry it down a few streets.....

My belly weighs a lot more than any of my cabs I have owned....would love to slim that down first to be honest...

Dave

[Toasted]

[quote name='chris_b' post='686402' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:21 PM']Bergantino is too expensive[/quote]

I bet you could buy Musicman20's Bergantino HS410 for around £825. They even use screws to attach the grill - hard to believe but true!

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='686383' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:04 PM']I haven't been a mod for months. Keep up. [/quote]

Well why do you act like you still are.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Toasted

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='686413' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:30 PM']Thats what i would have done, had you not say you could get a replacement to me out that same week.[/quote]

You're quite right I did say that. Over-optimism on my part, sorry.

[quote name='Shockwave' post='686413' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:30 PM']But you yourself in that initial reply to my e-mail after i said i had a problem with the handles said that you were sending out replacement parts to me, you also stated that you were sending the appropriate instuctions so i could fix it myself. you didnt state to just send it straight back.[/quote]

Quite true, that was our original solution. However, before you received instructions from me you opened up the cab, hence the tee-nut nightmare, and the continuing confusion over what was needed to fix it.

Basically one moment of forgetfulness on my part (the handle screws) has been turned into a PR disaster by a load of misunderstood communication and a lack of urgency on my part. I understand that I may seem somewhat forthright and scary but you went from cheery emails to one "haven't received the cab yet" email and then stopped replying to my emails updating you on when it was sorted, when it had been boxed up and when it had been sent. The first I heard from you that you'd even received the cab was when you sent me a link to this thread.

If you aren't happy, then tell me! Feel free to tell the world if you don't like my response but give me a chance to help.

Alex

Edited December 16, 2009 by alexclaber

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Toasted' post='686424' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:42 PM']Well why do you act like you still are. [/quote]
You're imagining things, Joe.

[GreeneKing]

A whole lot of interesting stuff has bubbled to the surface throughout this thread and it's all been pretty level headed methinks which is good.

When is it 'airing your dirty laundry' and when is it making a valid personal point about a manufacturers shortcomings? Maybe it's more likely the former when the manufacturer in question is an active member? If Rob were making the same complaint about 'Schroeder' say I doubt anyone would make any fuss. Manufacturers carry responsibility for their product due to the large wad people lay out for it.

In my opinion there is a 'stance' on Basschat in relation to certain products and by that I mean both a negative and a positive culture. Some of this is I believe down to petty politics and some down to 'norms' that the forum has adopted. There are people I speak to who don't post often or about certain subjects due to the negative reaction they get. There are also other basses/amps and cabs etc that can do no wrong. I don't think that this is necessarily because this is a fair reflection on things.

I was at Moffat, I was disappointed from an aural perspective despite wanting to like the Compact. I've known Dave Perry for a while (too long some would say ) and having seen the quality of everything he's crafted I'd respect his comments on build quality tremendously.

Edited December 16, 2009 by GreeneKing

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='686435' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:52 PM']You're imagining things, Joe.[/quote]

I'd say Michael, that the tone of your input as well as the manner of it, has changed not a lot since you stood down from the Mod Team.

That may just be your way of course.

Peter

Edited December 16, 2009 by GreeneKing

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='686440' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:57 PM']When is it 'airing your dirty laundry' and when is it making a valid personal point about a manufacturers shortcomings?[/quote]

It's just my opinion of course, but for me it's not what a manufacturer does wrong that counts. It's what they do to make it right. And IMO Alex didn't have enough opportunity to do that.

And yes, I practice what I preach. I've done it with Genz, Andertons, Schroeder... and probably a load of other companies. I only shout from the rooftops when the shutters begin to come down. Anything prior to that is not particularly useful.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='686441' date='Dec 16 2009, 03:59 PM']I'd say Michael, that the tone of your input as well as it's manner of it, has changed not a lot since you stood down from the Mod Team.

That may just be your way of course.

Peter[/quote]
I think the mods are hard done-by, and I'll keep defending them if I see fit.

Edited December 16, 2009 by wateroftyne

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='686443' date='Dec 16 2009, 04:02 PM']I think the mods are hard done-by, and I'll keep defending them if I see fit.[/quote]

And I'll defend my right to think that Barefaced cabs don't live up to the hype. No probs there then.

[EBS_freak]

Anyway, back on topic, we wouldn't want the thread closing demon to make a visit.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='686461' date='Dec 16 2009, 04:14 PM']And I'll defend my right to think that Barefaced cabs don't live up to the hype. No probs there then.[/quote]
knock yourself out! It's all about opinions. And the best opinions are those based on facts and experience.

[BottomEndian]

I think part of the problem we're seeing in this thread is that Alex seems to rub some people up the wrong way. He suffers slightly from this old chestnut:

That (combined with a slightly brusque manner) seems to have got some people's goats. Then, once the goat has been got, once the feathers have been ruffled, once the gloves are off, grudges are held. And then when Alex has a production problem, those with no gloves, messy feathers and some misappropriated goats seem to (like Paul H has said) enjoy the fact that he's had a production problem.

This whole mess has been a big sh*tter for Rob and a big sh*tter for Alex. That's not enjoyable or amusing for anyone with a hint of human empathy.

FWIW, I have no problem with what Alex says or how he says it, but then again I'm a massive nerd. See the above cartoon for my nightly routine.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='686464' date='Dec 16 2009, 04:17 PM']knock yourself out! It's all about opinions. And the best opinions are those based on facts and experience.[/quote]

Indeed. 1x 2x10 Neo vs Compact vs Vintage. I've been there. Heard all I needed to hear and BF didn't compare favourably.

They failed on looks, build, volume, quality of sound. OK, they were light... but so are the neos with which they were being compared.

Alex was there. I was there... and so was somebody who was going to buy one of Alex's cab. No surprises that he didn't buy a BF in the end... and walked away with two of the other cabs they were tested against (and that was for portability and the modular rig as opposed to needing two to compare to the BF)

My opinions are built on experience... unlike others around here.

Edited December 16, 2009 by EBS_freak

[wateroftyne]

Cool... personally, I can't form an opinion on the tone of gear unless I've gigged it.

Were all different, though!

Edited December 16, 2009 by wateroftyne

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='686496' date='Dec 16 2009, 04:40 PM']Cool... personally, I can't form an opinion on the tone of gear unless I've gigged it.

Were all different, though![/quote]

I'm experienced enough to hear when a cab is going to cut it at a gig or not.

No tops in non gig environment = no top at the gig.
No note definition in a non gig environment = no note definition at the gig.
Running a TD650 at 11 o'clock and the cab is not keeping up with a 2x10 = problems at a gig.

Sometimes, you don't need to gig an item to know how its going to perform. Common sense prevails... but then again, I do spend my life gigging and been through a lot of gear to know how things perform.

[wateroftyne]

Good on ya! It's a foresight I don't possess. I wish I did.