PAT Testing and Public Liability Insurance

[TimR]

Thank you Pete.

The you're an electrician FFS was not supposed to be a slur, it was supposed to make you think about the REAL world.

Your theory is all correct but it is only theory and a best practice guide and this is a forum. Producing pages of text where you are second guessing installations and saying that this is what you must do is absolutely pointless. Every installation is different and requires a visual inspection and real world data before you can comment. Fair enough if you are an expert in industrial sewing machines with 2A motors, I apologise.

As an electrician you should know this and blanket saying "Put a 5A fuse in it" without even seeing the equipment is just wrong!

Just calm down a bit.

That web site suggests that you size a fuse by looking at the rating and divide by 250 which you have already stated is wrong. Why should I believe anything else on it?

I am well aware of the time/current characteristics for fuses.

Tim BEng(hons) Electrical and Electronics engineer.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JTUK' post='973571' date='Oct 1 2010, 09:11 AM']Good to read PAT testing is cheap..so most bands would be stupid not to comply if only to be able to get those gigs that others cannot due to a piece of paper.
Of course, point taken about stupid wiring as well.[/quote]

And to reply to all the threads since I was at work as a "supposed electrician FFS!" Yes it is cheap if you get the right people to do it and all the suggestions in the thread look good to me,Hire centers,Local sparky or even a reputable firm should be able to do small quantitys for the price of a few pints.Just make sure you fix any problems before to save them time and you money fixing silly things like chord grips that have cables showing the inners coming out,Old style unsleeved plugtops on that old Lesley speaker and look down the whole legth of cables for cuts and nick as TimR says drum hardware and stools with fat drummers on wont do them any good!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' post='974401' date='Oct 1 2010, 06:15 PM']Thank you Pete.

The you're an electrician FFS was not supposed to be a slur, it was supposed to make you think about the REAL world.

Your theory is all correct but it is only theory and a best practice guide and this is a forum. Producing pages of text where you are second guessing installations and saying that this is what you must do is absolutely pointless. Every installation is different and requires a visual inspection and real world data before you can comment. Fair enough if you are an expert in industrial sewing machines with 2A motors, I apologise.

As an electrician you should know this and blanket saying "Put a 5A fuse in it" without even seeing the equipment is just wrong!

Just calm down a bit.

That web site suggests that you size a fuse by looking at the rating and divide by 250 which you have already stated is wrong. Why should I believe anything else on it?

I am well aware of the time/current characteristics for fuses.

Tim BEng(hons) Electrical and Electronics engineer.[/quote]

Its not an installation its a portable appliance hence the table can be applied to cover most as you say real world situations.

Plus this is not[u] my theory [/u]at all its years of experts work in the testing field that give us these rules and regulations which give us BS7671.

I hope from the professional and correct answers I have given on this thread others can see I am an actual electrician with the suitable knowledge to comment on PAT testing and IEE regs which is what the thread is about.By reading it does not provide anyone with a certificate and if I carry out work it is done on the merits of that job rather than one size fits all this as you say is a forum so I am giving a general overview of these Certs.

If you want to pull that company on their knowledge go ahead they are nothing to do with me but for all the letters after your name I bet my bottom dollar those are copied and pasted from one of the IEE on site guides which are valid legal documents regarding electrical safety and the 5A ratings will be a good practice addemdum in one of those guides not yet put in blood but maybe in the next update of BS7671 who knows?

Pete Cycling Proficiency(Failed)

Edited October 1, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[TimR]

"These are examples and you should ensure that the correct fuses are fitted, by consulting the manufacturers instructions."

Also known as the specs.

[stingrayPete1977]

Which in all my years as an electrician these instructions have normally been thrown in the bin long before I arrived to PAT test anything.

Im not sure what your point is anymore TBH so Im going to leave it at that.I think anyone with electrical knowledge can see I know what Im doing and are free to google any of the comments I have made as they are 100% correct, I do this everyday for a living.Im sure if you want to just keep probing me for ages sooner or later I will give an incorrect or none substatiated answer I am only human after all.

The Info given about IEE Periodic inspections and PAT testing is summarised in the other posts and I feel covered above and beyond what is required in answer to the OP concerns.

As I said we could go on forever you have your letters and all that but if a fuse is just to protect the cable not the appliance (your words)why do we have alongside T (time delay fuse),F (fast blow)? Thats right to protect the appliance just like the insides of our amps.See what Im saying?

Im out now guys as I think you can see this will go on forever if one of us does not bow out and as all my comments are correct at this time I will say thank you and good night! (I might of nicked that off Tino?)

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='TimR' post='974453' date='Oct 1 2010, 06:57 PM']"These are examples and you should ensure that the correct fuses are fitted, by consulting the manufacturers instructions."

Also known as the specs.[/quote]

Tim, leave it. You are clearly out of your depth here.

Being a pedant won't make you look like any less of an idiot.

[TimR]

[quote name='EBS_freak' post='974511' date='Oct 1 2010, 07:36 PM']Tim, leave it. You are clearly out of your depth here.

Being a pedant won't make you look like any less of an idiot.[/quote]

I'm not out of my depth. I have not disagreed with anything Pete has said.

He, however, said I was talking utter rubbish when I said I don't like it when electricians down rate fuses for no good reason. He then spouted off about how knowledgable he is on electrics quoting large bits of text to back up his claim. Pages of the stuff - most of it I have read for work, know and implement every day - most of it irrelevant - and very tedious.

The original equipment designer will tell you what fuse to use, not an electrician who thinks the fuse is "slightly" too big.

I see it all the time as have other posters. The electrician turns up, down rates the fuse, turns on the gear, all well and good, turns it off and goes away. Next time you turn it on the fuse blows. Great! The electrician never finds out about this because we, being nice English people who never complain, just put the proper fuse back in and don't say anything.

This is fine until it happens to you at a gig and no one has a spare fuse or a screwdriver.

[EBS_freak]

[HeavyJay]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='974381' date='Oct 1 2010, 05:53 PM']If you had asked any of the venues we carry out the fixed wiring tests (Or periodic Inspection to give it its proper name)for this we can supply a duplicate via either email or a proper legal paper duplicate within a hour or so as its all kept on computer or using NCR paper handwritten ones (I have just finished a 40 page one today!) and the yellow copies are kept under lock and key but they can be scanned in just the same.Sooner or later a venue will call your bluff.What will you do if you get their and they say "Our friendly local electrician is in a band and has popped down to watch you play and bought the Periodic Inspection documents with him"?

The five year IEE cert is correct but this is where you might find a problem,If the building is leased (as many are) then it may not be their responsibilty to do the cert anyway and many establishments carry them out every year nowadays.In this case the pub/club/venue would not have any access to the docs at all unless you really wanted to see them and maybe they would contact the landlord to produce it? Unlikely for a band me thinks.

And again if the local fire officer has insisted as part of the Entertainments licence that all performers produce PAT test certs for the gear its going to be down to the venue not your band as to whether they want to risk infringing the rules I think some would and some (any that have been checked up on or had an electrical incident) will not.For what it will cost you just get them tested and make sure you get a paper copy with a list of items tested too that way even if the stickers fall off or rub off you can show its been done from the brief description on the list. ie "Mackie PA speaker" will be fine.

For a change I do know what Im on about (TimR) and its not like a which is best P bass or Jazz we have rules (BS7671) to follow maybe BASSCHAT could create its own set? Rule No-1 Thou shall never mention a weak G String on a MusicMan! [/quote]

I probably should have mentioned that we're fully tested and insured so they can't call my bluff since I don't have one (or something like that!). Since we have to comply I like to make sure they do. Leeds Uni took a month or so to find it so I emailed our copies, Holiday Inn blustered a bit saying how they were a global chain and of course they had these sort of things but never managed to produce them and then never asked for ours. I had copies with me on the night of the gig in case they did.

I don't doubt that you know what you're on about but venues that ask you to plug into cracked wall sockets whilst asking for £x million insurance cover and PAT testing annoy me, this is a nice polite way to protest.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' post='974531' date='Oct 1 2010, 07:52 PM']I'm not out of my depth. I have not disagreed with anything Pete has said.

He, however, said I was talking utter rubbish when I said I don't like it when electricians down rate fuses for no good reason. He then spouted off about how knowledgable he is on electrics quoting large bits of text to back up his claim. Pages of the stuff - most of it I have read for work, know and implement every day - most of it irrelevant - and very tedious.

The original equipment designer will tell you what fuse to use, not an electrician who thinks the fuse is "slightly" too big.

I see it all the time as have other posters. The electrician turns up, down rates the fuse, turns on the gear, all well and good, turns it off and goes away. Next time you turn it on the fuse blows. Great! The electrician never finds out about this because we, being nice English people who never complain, just put the proper fuse back in and don't say anything.

This is fine until it happens to you at a gig and no one has a spare fuse or a screwdriver.[/quote]
OK last bite then!

Your attitude as in "irrelevant and tedious" sums it up for me.I dont want anyone who feels this way touching my house, place of work or gear.
And you dont appear to get the point that the designer is not on hand at every site to tell me which fuse to use and a lot of stuff has no label. The current method is still either 3A or 13A so when the 13A is too big what do they do? I am an electrician so have the nouse to use a 5 or a 10 but a 2 day trained guy will not.

As I said we can go on all day if you like but I dont think the thread will last long and If you are questioning factual documents I am showing you then where can we go with it? Like I said before all my facts are just that not theory and certainly not my theory as you put it.

What do you want to know next? earth fault paths, Ze, Zs, R1+R2, Insulation resistance readings I know em all matey but as you said so do you dont you ,
Its all tedious and irrellevant unless you fancy a fire?

I think I had really better make this my last post folks as this will just get silly so await the final word from TimR and see what final words of wisdom he has?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='HeavyJay' post='974549' date='Oct 1 2010, 08:00 PM']I probably should have mentioned that we're fully tested and insured so they can't call my bluff since I don't have one (or something like that!). Since we have to comply I like to make sure they do. Leeds Uni took a month or so to find it so I emailed our copies, Holiday Inn blustered a bit saying how they were a global chain and of course they had these sort of things but never managed to produce them and then never asked for ours. I had copies with me on the night of the gig in case they did.

I don't doubt that you know what you're on about but venues that ask you to plug into cracked wall sockets whilst asking for £x million insurance cover and PAT testing annoy me, this is a nice polite way to protest.[/quote]

Nice one thats the best way after all,Remember Im not condoning the bad wiring and would like to put it right, Thats how I put food on the table!
You would be surprised how quickly after the cert these things get broke again, Chavs kicking them when the gambler does not pay out for instance.

I would like to add Im not just a testing electrician,80% of my work is installation and find testing boring but necessary. I would much rather be out their making things work and fixing things.

Edited October 1, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[Bikenbass]

Hi Guys,

I went on a pat testing course last year. I passed my City & Guilds with 100%. The course lasted 1 day. I can change a fuse, wire a plug, that sort of previous domestic knowledge.

I've managed to infuriate my friend who paid for the course and my dear Wife by refusing to go out into the real world and begin testing. I freely admit I haven't a clue when it comes to pat testing but [i]I'm qualified![/i] It's only my sense of right from wrong that stops me from buying the testing machines and potentially hurting some one (or worse) through my ignorance.

If I can pass, how many others like me have done the same and are now dispensing questionable advice/results?

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='974564' date='Oct 1 2010, 08:13 PM']....
The current method is still either 3A or 13A so when the 13A is too big what do they do? I am an electrician so have the nouse to use a 5 or a 10 but a 2 day trained guy will not.
...[/quote]

I think we finally got there.

As I said earlier in the thread I don't want get bogged down in this... Seems I did. My apologies.

A good engineer or electrician will not make assumptions based on limited information.

"I don't know I'll find out." is always an option. Nobody is expected to know everything.

You made assumptions on the sewing machine and the fact that you were the best qualified person to write about electrical engineering on the forum. I have no doubt a Chartered Engineer and whole host of other people will have tears of laughter running down their faces reading the thread. You know your subject and I haven't disagreed with anything you have written.

Let's move on from this game.

[stingrayPete1977]

OK that sounds fair enough but I will just call you on the "I am the best qualified person on the forum to write about electrical engineering"Unless you can find anywhere I said that? And I cant see why any chartered electrical engineers would be laughing at any of my comments, As I have said they are facts and knowledge built up over a long time in this industry which you now appear to be agreeing with me on. Also unlike you I have a no point put my own credentials at the end of my post so you have not nor will you ever know what they may or may not be? And FWIW I did pass my cycling proficiency test!

[flyfisher]

A fascinating and entertaining exchange and one I've seen similarly repeated over many years in the IT/electronics industry when engineers and technicians have, er, differences of opinions. The amusing thing was that the technicians didn't usually understand the science but knew the 'rulebook' whereas the engineer was often the other way around. At no time did anyone really consider who actually writes these rulebooks and regulations and who has to follow them. Much like MSL's comment above that he hasn't a clue about PAT testing even though he is actually qualified. Anyway, such debates rarely ended in total agreement and usually fizzled out as the protagonists became bored. Deja vu really.

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' post='972976' date='Sep 30 2010, 05:38 PM']OK Guys actual electrician here now! Full NIC registered (Not just part P domestic either) This statement above is rubbish![/quote]

I think flyfisher has hit the nail on the head. The exchange is what people will be laughing at.

I only put my qualifications up because it felt like you were treating me like Joe Public who had no idea.

Don't take everything so personally. "Your theory" is a just a manner of speaking. I could have said "The theory".

I am a reasonable man but object to being told that my house is going to burn down because I am just going to "whack a 13A fuse in." You have to admit that is pretty condescending. Along with "This statement above is rubbish! "

I have an understanding of both sides of the fence being practical and design based. My comment on "irrelevant and tedious" is how your posts come across to me. It is as if you thought I don't know what's in the regs even though you were aware of my qualifications.

Can you tell the other people reading the forum where they can get these other size fuses that only an electrician will have? They're not something you can buy at B&Q?

What use is that when one blows? Do you have any theories why these fuses are becoming less common?

Edited October 2, 2010 by TimR

[stingrayPete1977]

Hi flyfisher.I know you to be a man of electronic knowledge and the above is all so true.The other problem is even the rulebook guys cant decide on a lot of these problems, Our company has quite a few things that have been put to the NIC technical guys doing correctlty as Tim says "I dont know, I will find out" and often they are stumped to give an answer,Even with the wealth of experience the company has between all its employees which have come from different backgrounds etc we cant know every thing but sometimes nor do they.ME bonding in houses has been changed so many times even since I begin to work in the trade and is the usual thing most electricians will bring up.Its still a little grey in some areas even after the 17th edition came in. Dood got in abit of a strop on that thread a few weeks ago as he picked me up on something (In quotes) which in fact he was wrong (and he appologised fair play) In that thread I clearly said I was not an electronics expert but knew a little at the start of almost every post I made and still got grief but this really is my area for a change.I dont claim to be an expert but I think being qualified,Experienced and doing it as your full time employment are enough factors to be able to comment on a relevent thread if you can tick all those boxes.

[stingrayPete1977]

Tim Tim Tim, Every basschatter is welcome to come and take a pack of 5A fuses from my van if that will cheer you up!

Plus if you read the chart I linked you would see the 5A fuse is becoming more widespread because of the problems some of you have highlighted with a 3A not being enough for the startup current,I even said I can see that being added to the on site guide at a later date rather than being just good practice?

Edited October 2, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

Or buy them here [url="http://www.thefusecompany.com/fuse.php?cPath=42&products_id=343&sid=6885e34e25fe66f51c1793170aacff49"]http://www.thefusecompany.com/fuse.php?cPa...c1793170aacff49[/url]
All electrical shops will stock them in fact I bet B&Q have even got them if you went in and looked if not ours has a maplin next door I bet they have!

In fact [url="http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=4526"]http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=4526[/url]

I think I really had better leave you to it now guys,If anyone else has any questions on PAT testing or the IEE periodic Inspections I will be happy to answer them in a pm,Trust me I really am qualified to.I might even throw in a pack of 5A fuses to the first one that has any work carried out by our company!

Edited October 2, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[flyfisher]

If, as you say, the rulebook guys can't decide on such things then how can anyone qualified and experienced in applying the rules be so certain of things? As you rightly say, domestic earthing regulations have changed over the years, so a person qualified and experienced in one edition of the wiring regs could be fairly accused of being completely wrong by another person qualified and experienced in the latest wiring regs. Even though the underlying science won't have changed.

Anyway, the whole fuse thing is particularly entertaining when most countries in the world don't even have fused plugs in the first place. So does that make us more primitive or more advanced in terms of electrical safety and who would you ask to get the answer? The guys that write the rulebooks or the guys that are qualified to read them?

[stingrayPete1977]

Im not even sure if I should carry on at all? TimR is going to keep on nibbling away until I make a false statement then rub it in my face ,I cant see why else as he keeps dragging things up that I think I have covered in detail.Im as sure as he is sooner or later I will faulter who would not?

Even the 17th edition has updates already and was well known in the industry for failing to launch on a few attempts as the tech guys were still fine tuning it,Within weeks their was an update!

I appologise beforehand to those who this makes nil sense but,

Do you really want to get into the foreign electrical systems? Now obviously Im not as clued up on this as our own but AFAIK they have in a lot of countries no earth," Shock horror"I hear you cry but if nothing is earthed then it is difficult to get a serious shock especially if all the circuits are covered by an rcd or more often in the last few years an RCBO which you will see if you poke around most holiday appartments I have stayed in.

This is where our ME bonding comes in (main equipotential) as it means if every item of conductive material in your house is earthed and at the time of the fault every item becomes live for the time it takes for the fuse to blow (By using the smallest fuses required this safe time can be acheived using known tables hence the preference to keep them as small as poss) In reality some incoming supplies mainly TN-S or TT alraedy have too high a reading at source to meet the values in the tables anyway and another form of disconnection must be used (Again RCD/RCBO).

TNC-S supplies can often achieve the values but are then overcome by another rule that says circuits that you cannot confirm to be at least 50mm buried within the building fabric (all our houses) have to be rcd protected anyway,Do you see where its going.

Ok with me so far? Now that ME thing is ok if and only ok if every item is earthed at the same source, If you stood in the bathroom and 230v came across the bathroom radiator and the tap whilst you held both you would not get a shock as both items are 230v for the time taken for the fault to clear hence "Main euipotential bonding" as in equal potential.Its just like the birds on the wires, If he keeps both feet on the same wire the voltage is the same and has no desire to flow through Him.The problem occurs in our system (and its a big one) if something is not earthed properly as the electricity will then try and flow to the earth ( the actual earth not the earth terminal) with resistance from either the buildings natural dampness or an undersize bonding cable you may have some degree of earth but not enough and end up with maybe 180v or whatever depending on lots of factors like the distance of the bonding cable and its CSD just for a start so then in that same position in your bathroom you get a 180v pisser across your chest,Ouch! So the foreign system does have its advantages thats for sure 6 of one half a dozen of the other I would say and in both cases if things like RCD/RCBO's are not tested for operation they can be as dangerous as each other anyway.

Has everyone got that or fast asleep? I told you I could keep going this is just the surface but about as much as I know about the pros and cons of other european supplies.US im not too sure on to be fair at all.

Just reread your question regarding the fuses and most other countries and now alot more so us too use radial circuits in the hard wiring so most socket outlets will be 16 or 20A rated rcbo's so max 16/20A anyway rather than our 32A and 30mA of fault current lost and its dead as a dodo.

Edited October 2, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[TimR]

No, you're Ok pete.

I have no problem with your knowledge, my problem was with you not answering the original question simply but resorting to writing pages of info to "prove" you were a "proper electrician". No one was ever doubting this.

You are right about Maplins doing the 5amp. However unfortunately it was the 5amp fuse in my amp that blew and I had a very frustrating trip to B&Q to see lines of 3amp and 13amp fuses, but no 5s or 10s. Hence my B&Q question, it wasn't meant to be a dig.

I believe that eventually the UK WILL go to 3A and 13A as you say eventually we will get dragged to European standards. I hope we don't end up like the Italians. One of our guys found a live 415v cable with bare ends coiled above one of our Milan office ceilings.

Edited October 2, 2010 by TimR

[stingrayPete1977]

Unfortunatley we are already their Tim,I found a 415v just a few weeks ago at a (dodgy) car repair place where they had removed the unused vehicle ramp 3 years ago! Not even a bit of insulation tape around it just hanging down the wall where the public were allowed to stand to view tyre changes! Its all out their trust me.

Edited October 2, 2010 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

Anway I thought your amp had a 13A in it? Sorry Tim I couldnt resist that one ,It was a low blow.

[flyfisher]

I think you may have missed my point. I wasn't looking for a recital of the actual regs, more of an explanation about the merits of different regs in different countries and who would be the best sort of person to ask. Although, you probably answered it anyway.

Personally, I would suggest that the whole fuse thing is ridiculous anyway and is, I think, a feeling reflected in many of the changes to the regs over the years. Whatever we may think of qualifications, I think we could agree that it's poor design to rely on end-users having any level of electrical knowledge in order to safely use an appliance. Giving Joe Public a fused mains lead is a wrongly-rated fuse waiting to happen. So why bother in the firstplace? This seems to be something that most countries of the world seem to have figured out and I'm amazed its taking the UK so long to figure this out.

Perhaps that's why an electrican's qualifications are not quite as globally recognised as an engineers' ?