Dual Buffered Pedalboard Interface/Patchbay - Suggestions?

[AinsleyWalker]

I'm looking for a patchbay/pedalboard interface that has both an input buffer and an output buffer. (1Meg input, 100ohms output - ideal specs for buffers)

I have found a couple of great options from Vertex and Goodwood, but they're on the other side of the world and/or very pricey. I would contact Bright Onion but they are not currently taking any custom orders, so they're out of the equation for now. 
Goodwood used to do the Bass Interfacer, and now do the larger Custom Junction box (which is double the price at $500...) 

Vertex make custom buffered interfaces but again they're based in the US. They also have videos/instructions on how to make your own, but I'm not sure I have the expertise needed to assemble it to a high quality. 

 

Something like this would be ideal if it based closer to UK,  or even something simpler which is simply a mono dual-buffered mono patchbay (doesn't necessarily need an FX loop like the Goodwood options above).
There are similar options like the Empress Buffer +, but the buffer specs are not great on the output (510ohms if I remember correctly)

Anyone have any suggestions for UK/European based alternatives? It seems all the companies paying attention to this kind of thing are US/Aus/NZ based  
Thanks!

Edited August 15, 2022 by AinsleyWalker

[jimmyb625]

You could try Pete Cornish, but it won't be cheap.

[MichaelDean]

Don't mean to be insulting - geniune question. Why not put a buffered pedal at the beginning of the chain and then have a single buffer pedal at the end? Something like the TC Elec Polytune at the front, combined with their Boneafide Buffer at the other end. Both have the buffer spec you're looking for with a reasonably small footprint even if it is two extra things instead of just the one. Is there something in particular you're trying to acheive?

 

Just realised that you're talking patchbay and I'm not in the efffects forum! That'll be why!

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by MichaelDean
D'oh!

[AinsleyWalker]

5 minutes ago, MichaelDean said:

Don't mean to be insulting - geniune question. Why not put a buffered pedal at the beginning of the chain and then have a single buffer pedal at the end? Something like the TC Elec Polytune at the front, combined with their Boneafide Buffer at the other end. Both have the buffer spec you're looking for with a reasonably small footprint even if it is two extra things instead of just the one. Is there something in particular you're trying to acheive?

 

Just realised that you're talking patchbay and I'm not in the efffects forum! That'll be why!

 

 

Haha no worries! It's a reasonable suggestion anyway that would do the job.
I currently have a little Bright Onion passive patchbay which I use to go to and from my switcher. Replacing it with a buffered patchbay would just be the most logical step 

[itu]

Could you open up the issue a bit, how is that 510 ohm output bad? 100 ohms is little, but so is 500. That will not load any input. Practically all amp inputs can cope such a low impedance with ease. What are you after?

[AinsleyWalker]

18 hours ago, itu said:

Could you open up the issue a bit, how is that 510 ohm output bad? 100 ohms is little, but so is 500. That will not load any input. Practically all amp inputs can cope such a low impedance with ease. What are you after?

I'm just after a patchbay with high quality buffers on the input and output. I've done quite a bit of research on buffers and the optimal specs lately and these are the numbers that come up time and time again, and are featured on most good standalone buffers - JHS, Mesa Boogie, TC etc. 

1meg input is optimal for guitar, anything up to 5meg can suit bass (as bass amps are less standardised on their inputs). The Peterson Strobostomp Tuner is about 2meg on input if I'm not mistaken, for example. 
The point of of an output buffer is to drive long lines effectively and stably. The lower the impedance of an output buffer, the better it will do the intended job. Mason from Vertex suggests 80ohms-150ohm for an ideal output impedance. 

While commenting on the Goodwood Interfacer's 500ohm output, he said: "It's a bit high for my liking. 100 ohms is ideal, this is about 5x higher than recommended and won't be as stable on the output with greater capacitive loads."

[itu]

Your bass may has a:

1) piezo output without a buffer (extremely high impedance, >1 Mohm),

2) high impedance output (<200 kohm, "passive"), or

3) low impedance output (< 20 kohm, "active").

 

A bass amp input impedance can be under or over 1 Mohm. If your system consists of a bass, a (quality and relatively short) cable, and an amp, the load in the input will be very acceptable. A short cable here means that the length is under 20 meters. Quality means, that it is meant for instrument use (= does not load the bass' output significantly).

 

If you use effects, their output impedances are usually in the ballpark of 1 kohm or less. Remember: true bypass activated means that the output is the same as the previous component's (bass, effect...) output. If your bass sees complicated capacitive loads, something is not right.

 

/side note starts/

Balanced mic lines run @ 600 ohm. They are functional to up to 300 meters (according to Neumann). Yes, they are balanced AND low impedance. But if we leave balanced out, and use a low impedance output, 10 - 20 m instrument cable should be practically lossless.

/side note ends/

 

Piezo pickup without a decent opamp-based preamp/buffer is a chore. Even some effect inputs have issues with them. But again, with a good buffer just beside the piezo, the system works as it should: the output impedance of the buffer is low enough.

 

/technical note starts/

Most of the buffers and preamps are based on opamps. Opamp input impedance can be extremely high (https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/analogue_circuits/operational-amplifier-op-amp/input-impedance.php), while the output can be very low. But after certain levels, the impedances are simply good enough. I wish I could compare sounds of the different output impedances, but my equipment is based on reasonable choices, like decent cables. I don't care about it if the system seems to work as intended.

/technical note ends/

 

If your signal going to the amp is:

1) <1 kohm, there will be no issues at all in the amp end, even with some less-than-perfect elements in between the bass and the amp.

2) <10 kohm, most preamps eat this signal with ease.

3) >100 kohm can be hard to certain amps and effects.

4) >1 Mohm may cause serious degradation to signal without active elements.

[fretmeister]

I wouldn’t touch anything by Vertex ever. 
Not after the scams they pulled, and eventually admitted.

 

Absolute grifters.

[AinsleyWalker]

16 hours ago, itu said:

Your bass may has a:

1) piezo output without a buffer (extremely high impedance, >1 Mohm),

2) high impedance output (<200 kohm, "passive"), or

3) low impedance output (< 20 kohm, "active").

 

A bass amp input impedance can be under or over 1 Mohm. If your system consists of a bass, a (quality and relatively short) cable, and an amp, the load in the input will be very acceptable. A short cable here means that the length is under 20 meters. Quality means, that it is meant for instrument use (= does not load the bass' output significantly).

 

If you use effects, their output impedances are usually in the ballpark of 1 kohm or less. Remember: true bypass activated means that the output is the same as the previous component's (bass, effect...) output. If your bass sees complicated capacitive loads, something is not right.

 

/side note starts/

Balanced mic lines run @ 600 ohm. They are functional to up to 300 meters (according to Neumann). Yes, they are balanced AND low impedance. But if we leave balanced out, and use a low impedance output, 10 - 20 m instrument cable should be practically lossless.

/side note ends/

 

Piezo pickup without a decent opamp-based preamp/buffer is a chore. Even some effect inputs have issues with them. But again, with a good buffer just beside the piezo, the system works as it should: the output impedance of the buffer is low enough.

 

/technical note starts/

Most of the buffers and preamps are based on opamps. Opamp input impedance can be extremely high (https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/analogue_circuits/operational-amplifier-op-amp/input-impedance.php), while the output can be very low. But after certain levels, the impedances are simply good enough. I wish I could compare sounds of the different output impedances, but my equipment is based on reasonable choices, like decent cables. I don't care about it if the system seems to work as intended.

/technical note ends/

 

If your signal going to the amp is:

1) <1 kohm, there will be no issues at all in the amp end, even with some less-than-perfect elements in between the bass and the amp.

2) <10 kohm, most preamps eat this signal with ease.

3) >100 kohm can be hard to certain amps and effects.

4) >1 Mohm may cause serious degradation to signal without active elements.

 

Thanks for the info! Much appreciated  

[AinsleyWalker]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

I wouldn’t touch anything by Vertex ever. 
Not after the scams they pulled, and eventually admitted.

 

Absolute grifters.

 

Yeah I have to say, I've only very recently been informed of their shady side through colleagues at work... I'm aware of them basically ripping off circuits, but not much else.
Shame because I've found the Chairman of the Boards podcasts interesting

Edited August 17, 2022 by AinsleyWalker

[tayste_2000]

Pino Palladino was recently spotted using this.

 

https://www.believableaudio.com/products/29-pedals-euna

 

Not quite what you’re looking for though with the way the loop behaves.

Edited August 17, 2022 by tayste_2000

[AinsleyWalker]

12 hours ago, tayste_2000 said:

Pino Palladino was recently spotted using this.

 

https://www.believableaudio.com/products/29-pedals-euna

 

Not quite what you’re looking for though with the way the loop behaves.

Yeah I've seen these on quite a few boards lately, from Emily Harpist to guitar players! 
Didn't realise Rocco used one though, was this seen on his board for the Yussef Dayes Experience? I struggled to make out anything he was using on the board (but heard his usual oc2 and chorus tones)

[tayste_2000]

Pino, not Rocco 😉

[tayste_2000]

9 hours ago, AinsleyWalker said:

Yeah I've seen these on quite a few boards lately, from Emily Harpist to guitar players! 
Didn't realise Rocco used one though, was this seen on his board for the Yussef Dayes Experience? I struggled to make out anything he was using on the board (but heard his usual oc2 and chorus tones)

 

[AinsleyWalker]

16 hours ago, tayste_2000 said:

Pino, not Rocco 😉

 

Oh right, could have sworn you typed Rocco 😉

Where did you see him using the Euna may I ask? 

[tayste_2000]

10 hours ago, AinsleyWalker said:

 

Oh right, could have sworn you typed Rocco 😉

Where did you see him using the Euna may I ask? 

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/pedalboard-spotting-pino-palladino-edition.1571958/

[AinsleyWalker]

For anyone interested, i've found 2 options that meet my ideal spec (1meg input, 100ohm output)

 

The Caveman BUF1 and the MusicomLab SI-01 both look they'll do the job nicely. 
Leaning towards the Musicom as it's around half the price and flat, so I could put a DI box, tuner or something on top.

 

        

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by AinsleyWalker