Tuning in 5ths

[Owen]

I am about to launch a 'cellist into bass guitar world. She is 14 and at Grade 7 standard so is a very competent player. I am sorely tempted to tune a bass guitar like a 'cello (CGDA). This would mean that she has an extended range instrument from the off and she would be reading without having to adjust. I am aware that a lot of stuff we play is pattern based and a lot of those patterns lend themselves to 4th tuning, but if she is at Grade 7 then I am not worried about her dexterity and shifting. 

 

I am open to arguments against this concept. Am I missing anything? 

[Jakester]

String tension/response? Assuming you mean tuning the 'E' down to C, 'A' down to G etc, isn't the string response across the strings going to be weird? A floopy C and possibly G, normal D, and higher tension A?

 

Starting with the 'wrong' tuning - she'll presumably have to adjust at some point, so why not early on?

[Nail Soup]

String tension and stuff aside, I think it would be good time for her to learn a new tuning. 

It's part and parcel of moving between instruments.

[Dan Dare]

Given that a double bass is tuned in 4ths, why bother? Many people play differently tuned stringed instruments without an issue (I play fiddle, mandolin, guitar and bass/double bass). It just sounds a bit pointless.

[itu]

Some UK studio bassist was interviewed in BP years ago. His choice was cello tuning which he mastered in a very short time. I do see no problem to try that.

 

Please consider a custom string set. D'Addario's chart helps finding the right tensions:

 

https://www.daddario.com/globalassets/pdfs/accessories/tension_chart_13934.pdf

 

GDAE tuning with 40/60/80/100 set gives around 35-43 lbs/string. Approximately similar tension (39-43 lbs) on a ADGC tuning would equal strings 32/60/90/130. This is a quick-n-dirty estimation.

[ezbass]

Just to be contrary, Tony Levin tunes his cello in 4ths because it’s what he knows, so why not the reverse? However, he’s ancient and she’s young, so learning it in the traditional tuning probably would be easier for her and best in the long run.

 

Ooh, a fence! Let me sit on it.  

[ambient]

If she’s comfortable with it then why not?

 

Why would she need to adjust at some time? I don’t get that. 
 

A lot of the metal bassists use non-standard tunings.
 

I find strings will accept quite a bit extra tuning. My is currently tuned C F Bb Eb G C, I also use B G B D A D, and other tunings where the strings are higher than standard tuning. 
 

I love the way a bass takes on a different character when it’s tuned differently.

 

If it works for you then do it.

Edited August 1, 2022 by ambient

[Crawford13]

My take on this would be: 

 

If it's for a one off gig, and she is going back to playing Cello then string a bass in 5ths.

 

If she is going to be playing bass going forward, use standard tunings .

 

As I'm sure someone mentioned above most classically trained string musicians to Grade 7 will have the musical knowledge to adapt fairly quickly to any stringed instrument. Especially when she won't have to worry about intonation (presuming it's not a Fretless bass)

[bassace]

Haven’t you guys heard of Red Mitchell?

[fretmeister]

Schecter used to sell a bass in Cello tuning. Must have been 20 years ago.

 

The only downside I can see is that she won’t ever be able to borrow a bass at a gig.

[Nail Soup]

If this was some idea she had dreamed up herself, then it might be OK.

But I don't think it's something you should influence her towards.

[ezbass]

43 minutes ago, bassace said:

Haven’t you guys heard of Red Mitchell?

Not until now, no. Every day is a school day.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Mitchell

[BreadBin]

1 hour ago, ambient said:

If she’s comfortable with it then why not?

 

Why would she need to adjust at some time? I don’t get that. 
 

A lot of the metal bassists use non-standard tunings.
 

I find strings will accept quite a bit extra tuning. My is currently tuned C F Bb Eb G C, I also use B G B D A D, and other tunings where the strings are higher than standard tuning. 
 

I love the way a bass takes on a different character when it’s tuned differently.

 

If it works for you then do it.

Agreed! I have one of mine tuned D A D F# for big chordal nonsense.

[deepbass5]

It may help her to play Bach on the bass something i have often tried with great difficulty which i usually dismiss as all down to having to play in 4ths.

 

I think she should start out again and play tuned in 4ths,

 

when she goes to a bass store and tries out a few basses she'll sound like Les Dawson 😆

[Cato]

It'll make learning a part by watching someone else a lot more challenging.

 

Likewise those those YouTube tutorials that concentrate on visually demonstrating the fretting hand movements whilst describing notes as "second string 5th fret".

[ezbass]

1 minute ago, deepbass5 said:

 

 

when she goes to a bass store and tries out a few basses she'll sound like Les Dawson 😆

I can do that in standard tuning, never minded altered!

[Stub Mandrel]

Whats the point in learning a new instrument if you make it essentially the same as your existing one? Plus she will find some things become very odd to play.

 

Changing ginger oatterns helps build flexibility and adaptabilty too, breaks built in finger habits benefiting both instruments.

[FDC484950]

I’d advise against it. I tried it when I was already an experienced bass player and quickly realised it has the major disadvantage of requiring a lot of shifting up and down individual strings. No problem on a violin and doable on a cello but a nightmare on something with a bass scale length or longer. It also requires building a set from individual strings - something like .130, .085, 0.60, 0.35 for a reasonable balance across the strings. Curiously I also found that the wider intervals between each string were tricky to intonate. It’s a bit of fun to get you out of a rut but given how much scalar stuff basslines usually involve it would quickly become a pain in the backside. Maybe on a short scale 30” bass but even then tuning in 4ths is so much easier. As other have said it’s also what just about every other bass player in the planet knows and is comfortable with. 

Edited August 1, 2022 by FDC484950

[Beer of the Bass]

I think Georgie Born did this with Henry Cow, also coming from a cello background. But unless your student is using a 30“ scale instrument, the amount of shifting needed to play typical lines in the lower register is already going to feel quite different from cello. And if she's at that standard on cello at 14, I suspect she'd pick up standard tuned bass guitar quite quickly anyway. Fifths tuned bass guitar could work well with the right strings, but if your student is interested in bass guitar then it would make sense to get familiar with the standard configuration first, as it would help understand the nature of the instrument.

[zbd1960]

I’m a cellist and I go with those saying no. I have a challenge with a normal sized hand getting the 4th finger I tune and not slightly flat in first position when extending for say C# on the G string. Bass spacing is much bigger - it would be tricky. Cello involves a lot of shifting as well and bass doesn’t have an easy way of marking 4th position ( ok there are fret markers).

 

I can cope with learning bass and I’m sure someone younger would adapt much more easily. 

[ambient]

3 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Schecter used to sell a bass in Cello tuning. Must have been 20 years ago.

 

The only downside I can see is that she won’t ever be able to borrow a bass at a gig.

She could retune it.

 

Depending on the setup, she might have a bit of fret noise, but I don’t reset my instrument up every time I change tuning.

[nekomatic]

The obvious (to me) argument against is that it would be an obstacle to getting lessons from a bass teacher at some future date. 

[Norris]

5 hours ago, fretmeister said:

The only downside I can see is that she won’t ever be able to borrow a bass at a gig.

How is that likely, given the number of Basschat threads where people say they would never lend their bass out? 😂

 

Your typical pentatonic would probably not be that easy tuned in 5ths. The long scale would make it quite tricky

[scalpy]

What does she want to learn for? If she’s writing/ playing in original bands then she can tune it whatever way she likes. If she’s looking at reading gigs and covers (I’m thinking your standard pub/ function repertoire) then you’re going to give her a major headache, even if it’s not insurmountable. 

[ezbass]

12 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Whats the point in learning a new instrument if you make it essentially the same as your existing one? Plus she will find some things become very odd to play.

 

Changing ginger oatterns helps build flexibility and adaptabilty too, breaks built in finger habits benefiting both instruments.

I love ginger oatterns, I’m hoping that they’ll bring out a chocolate covered one in the future.