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lukeward2004

The Lightweight Cabs Thread

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[quote name='drthirkenstein' post='323162' date='Nov 6 2008, 03:07 AM']in my experience neo speakers cant produce any where near the same levels of low frequency as the heavy buggers. as a general rule the heavier your equipment the better it sounds! besides its character building![/quote]

Maybe in your experience but your experience is clearly too limited! This cab can produce far more low frequency output than any non-neo cabs of similar size let alone weight:

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/thebigone.html"]http://barefacedbass.com/thebigone.html[/url]

Alex

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='323205' date='Nov 6 2008, 08:43 AM']Maybe in your experience but your experience is clearly too limited! This cab can produce far more low frequency output than any non-neo cabs of similar size let alone weight:

[url="http://barefacedbass.com/thebigone.html"]http://barefacedbass.com/thebigone.html[/url]

Alex[/quote]
I thought we had a policy on this forum about commercial promotion?

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"I thought we had a policy on this forum about commercial promotion?"

+1

Edited by Raggy

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[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='323230' date='Nov 6 2008, 09:42 AM']I thought we had a policy on this forum about commercial promotion?[/quote]

Just pointing out that drthirkenstein is quantifiably wrong about low frequency sound pressure levels attainable from certain lightweight neo magnet speaker cabinets - my own design is an obvious example for which I know the precise performance and am 100% certain that you cannot buy any other bass guitar cabinet of similar size (not weight!) which can produce as much LF SPL. If he said he didn't like the sound of them then fair enough!

Alex

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='324419' date='Nov 7 2008, 07:14 PM']Just pointing out that drthirkenstein is quantifiably wrong about low frequency sound pressure levels attainable from certain lightweight neo magnet speaker cabinets - my own design is an obvious example for which I know the precise performance and am 100% certain that you cannot buy any other bass guitar cabinet of similar size (not weight!) which can produce as much LF SPL. If he said he didn't like the sound of them then fair enough!

Alex[/quote]

That’s quite a bold claim. Have you tested [i]everything[/i] on the market then?

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[quote name='benwhiteuk' post='324428' date='Nov 7 2008, 07:25 PM']That’s quite a bold claim. Have you tested [i]everything[/i] on the market then?[/quote]

Ben, that's a fair question and seven or eight years ago I'd have asked exactly the same! Since then I've learnt a lot about speaker design and acoustics (though I did do a mechanical engineering degree previously and have messed around with loudspeakers since I was in short trousers!) so let me explain how I can make that statement: Back in the '60s a couple of very clever Aussies, Mr Thiele and Mr Small, came up with an electrical equivalent circuit for a loudspeaker and enclosure which could thus be analysed using standard electrical transfer functions to very accurately establish the response of a loudspeaker below ~200Hz (above this frequency it gets more complicated and you have to work by a combination of measurements and modelling due to the output no longer being totally omnidirectional and the speaker no longer totally pistonic in its operation). All speaker manufacturers worth considering provide comprehensive thiele/small specs for their woofers and you can use modelling software to accurately predict the response of a speaker and thus the max LF SPL (you can even do it on paper but that's more longwinded!)

The overwhelming factor in determining the max LF SPL of a loudspeaker is its Vd (volume displacement) which is equal to its Xmax (max linear excursion) multiplied by its Sd (radiating surface area) - the other key factors are the sensitivity in the lows (does the cabinet have enough internal volume to allow the woofer to move easily - too little volume increases the impedance at low frequencies due to increased back pressure) and the port tuning (if the port is tuned too low you lose max SPL at the critical frequencies, if it's tuned too high it doesn't go low enough) and sizing (if the port is too small in area it does not operate linearly and thus restricts output). I searched and searched for years for the ultimate woofer for producing as much LF SPL as possible for bass guitar use and I kept coming back to this same model. In a suitably sized cabinet it flattens everything else commercially available and although there are a select few woofers you can buy that can produce even more LF SPL from a similar sized cab they are extortionately expensive and need much much more power to reach that SPL.

So no, I haven't tested everything and I don't need to! I have modelled hundreds of designs using woofers from Eminence, Fane, B&C, Beyma, 18sound, Celestion, BMS et al. and I have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of what's on the market and roughly how it performs quantitatively.

Hope that helps, let me know if you want to know more or want anything clarifying.

Alex

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[quote name='drthirkenstein' post='323162' date='Nov 6 2008, 03:07 AM']....in my experience neo speakers cant produce any where near the same levels of low frequency as the heavy buggers. as a general rule the heavier your equipment the better it sounds! besides its character building!....[/quote]
You've never played or carried an Epifani 4x10 , have you?
It's very loud, ultra light and has huge bass response. You could also try Bergantino and Schroeder Neo cabs.

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='324462' date='Nov 7 2008, 08:20 PM']Ben, that's a fair question and seven or eight years ago I'd have asked exactly the same! Since then I've learnt a lot about speaker design and acoustics (though I did do a mechanical engineering degree previously and have messed around with loudspeakers since I was in short trousers!) so let me explain how I can make that statement: Back in the '60s a couple of very clever Aussies, Mr Thiele and Mr Small, came up with an electrical equivalent circuit for a loudspeaker and enclosure which could thus be analysed using standard electrical transfer functions to very accurately establish the response of a loudspeaker below ~200Hz (above this frequency it gets more complicated and you have to work by a combination of measurements and modelling due to the output no longer being totally omnidirectional and the speaker no longer totally pistonic in its operation). All speaker manufacturers worth considering provide comprehensive thiele/small specs for their woofers and you can use modelling software to accurately predict the response of a speaker and thus the max LF SPL (you can even do it on paper but that's more longwinded!)

The overwhelming factor in determining the max LF SPL of a loudspeaker is its Vd (volume displacement) which is equal to its Xmax (max linear excursion) multiplied by its Sd (radiating surface area) - the other key factors are the sensitivity in the lows (does the cabinet have enough internal volume to allow the woofer to move easily - too little volume increases the impedance at low frequencies due to increased back pressure) and the port tuning (if the port is tuned too low you lose max SPL at the critical frequencies, if it's tuned too high it doesn't go low enough) and sizing (if the port is too small in area it does not operate linearly and thus restricts output). I searched and searched for years for the ultimate woofer for producing as much LF SPL as possible for bass guitar use and I kept coming back to this same model. In a suitably sized cabinet it flattens everything else commercially available and although there are a select few woofers you can buy that can produce even more LF SPL from a similar sized cab they are extortionately expensive and need much much more power to reach that SPL.

So no, I haven't tested everything and I don't need to! I have modelled hundreds of designs using woofers from Eminence, Fane, B&C, Beyma, 18sound, Celestion, BMS et al. and I have a pretty comprehensive knowledge of what's on the market and roughly how it performs quantitatively.

Hope that helps, let me know if you want to know more or want anything clarifying.

Alex[/quote]

I hear what you’re saying mate, and I really do understand what you’ve said there, but I can’t agree with you. I don’t want to start another debate about enclosure design, so I’m happy to leave it here and agree to disagree :)

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What I'm currently trying to find (now having sold my GS112s to Dave Perry - cheers Dave!) is something that gets close to the tone of my old pre-Kevlar Trace 4x10 (or even the 1153 compact 1x15) but in a lighter package.

In my band (not at home in my fusion-noodling mode) I'm after a tone somewhere in the Squire/Foxton/Entwistle area, and most of the small modern cabs I've played don't do it very well. I also find many modern cabs a bit "plasticky" sounding, for want of a better word, when I'm using my Rics.

The Ashdown compact 1x15 is a consideration, but if I could find something a bit tighter and punchier I'd be happy. However it still has to be able to deal with the low end of the Rics, which is very deep rather than fat. Does anyone have any suggestions? The most success I've had so far with the Rics are Ashdown and Trace, but Trace are now too heavy and I have little experience of Ashdown other than the 15s and the tweeter-loaded 210 combos (which I don't like because you can't turn the tweeters off). I'll add that I've always liked Celestions, and I never use tweeters; give me a tweeter and I'll turn it off! With the horns off I found the Aggies too congested and not detailed enough for me; they didn't respond to my picking technique at all well.

Oh, one other thing... the cabs can't be too deep (no more than 15" or 16" really) as vehicular space doesn't allow. I've been advised to try the Schroeders but I'm not sure they'll do the Squire thing. Also wondered about the Zoots, which seem to have a lot of what I want, but I can't try any, the ABM 210 (switchable horn but 75hz low end response???) and the ABM 4x8 mini. Head currently used is an Ashdown ABM500.

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I'm on the lookout for a new cab / cabs - Lord knows why - and this thread has been pretty interesting.

I've been following Alex's posts for a few days now. He's got some very interesting stuff to say, even if 95% of it goes eight miles above my head. Some of his arguments directly challenge stuff I've always assumed was correct (15s are slower than 10s and don't have enough clarity, etc.)

Looking at his site ([url="http://www.barefacedbass.com"]www.barefacedbass.com[/url]), I see he's offering a trial period for his cabs. I think I'm going to give one a go....

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='324419' date='Nov 7 2008, 07:14 PM']Just pointing out that drthirkenstein is quantifiably wrong about low frequency sound pressure levels attainable from certain lightweight neo magnet speaker cabinets - my own design is an obvious example for which I know the precise performance and am 100% certain that you cannot buy any other bass guitar cabinet of similar size (not weight!) which can produce as much LF SPL. If he said he didn't like the sound of them then fair enough!

Alex[/quote]
Yeah but because you made specific reference to your product its a plug too.

Tut.

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[quote name='4000' post='324516' date='Nov 7 2008, 09:27 PM']What I'm currently trying to find ........ is something that gets close to the tone of my old pre-Kevlar Trace 4x10 (or even the 1153 compact 1x15) but in a lighter package.[/quote]

Sounds like we are on the same mission!

I have gone from...

1 x 15 The big old one.
to
4 x 10 Even heavier.
to
1 x 15 (1153) & 2 x 10 + 5 (2103).

And now want to go 'lighter'.

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[quote name='Mr.T' post='324693' date='Nov 8 2008, 09:58 AM']Sounds like we are on the same mission!

I have gone from...

1 x 15 The big old one.
to
4 x 10 Even heavier.
to
1 x 15 (1153) & 2 x 10 + 5 (2103).

And now want to go 'lighter'.[/quote]

Maybe we could do a "Long Way Round" type thing about said mission, going round the world trying bass cabs the hard way! :)

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[quote name='Mr.T' post='324693' date='Nov 8 2008, 09:58 AM']And now want to go 'lighter'.[/quote]

Be honest, you want to turn up to gigs on your bike don't you? :)

Alex

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='324709' date='Nov 8 2008, 10:40 AM']Be honest, you want to turn up to gigs on your bike don't you? :huh:

Alex[/quote]

Would be cool!

..... My Sharan doesn't quite have the same impact :)

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[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='323230' date='Nov 6 2008, 09:42 AM']I thought we had a policy on this forum about commercial promotion?[/quote]


I bet no one would say that to Jon Shuker if he were to post.

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[quote name='Mr.T' post='324720' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:04 AM']..... My Sharan doesn't quite have the same impact :)[/quote]

For a moment I thought you were talking about your wife!

Alex

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[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='323230' date='Nov 6 2008, 09:42 AM']I thought we had a policy on this forum about commercial promotion?[/quote]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='324721' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:05 AM']I bet no one would say that to Jon Shuker if he were to post.[/quote]

Yeh and when Leo Fender posted we were all speechless. :)

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='324723' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:06 AM']For a moment I thought you were talking about your wife!

Alex[/quote]

...Although she is pretty handy when in comes to load up the V-Dub!

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[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='324721' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:05 AM']I bet no one would say that to Jon Shuker if he were to post.[/quote]

You wouldn't be able to hear what anyone was saying over all the slurping.

Edited by Toasted

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[quote name='Mr.T' post='324720' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:04 AM']Would be cool!

..... My Sharan doesn't quite have the same impact :)[/quote]you could so fit an 8x10 on that tank! its huge!

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[quote name='grosa' post='326125' date='Nov 10 2008, 06:06 PM']you could so fit an 8x10 on that tank! its huge![/quote]

....It wouldn't do the paintjob any favours though! :)

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Is there a lighter rig out there (that isn't made of spider's webs and magic)?

LM II which weighs in at 2.9 kg with an epifani UL110 which is less than 10 kg. You can walk for miles and miles and miles in search of a venue!

I use it mainly for backline monitoring for gigs with PA support and for small venues.

[attachment=16200:IMG_5371.JPG]

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