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lukeward2004

The Lightweight Cabs Thread

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='159070' date='Mar 17 2008, 06:02 PM']I should probably point out that I'm on a mission to build the ultimate lightweight bass cab - more details over here:

[url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=13344&st=40&start=40"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=...40&start=40[/url]

Alex[/quote]
Well what about starting a Bass Chat own brand! there's enough of us fussy old farts wanting the ultimate lightweight cab!

Be fun to come up with a brand name too.

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[quote name='Born 2B Mild' post='159076' date='Mar 17 2008, 06:10 PM']Well what about starting a Bass Chat own brand! there's enough of us fussy old farts wanting the ultimate lightweight cab!

Be fun to come up with a brand name too.[/quote]

I have some ideas about a brand too, with a series of three models - a superlight and simple 15", a 15"+6.5" and a 15" bottom to give you a full 2x15" rig. I think these cabs are viable as commercial items but only with direct sales from the manufacturer - i.e. me! - because otherwise the retail price would be stratospheric once the usual series of mark-ups have been added (due to a combination of fiddly build and expensive components). Would be nice to give a more affordable alternative to the other lightweight cabs on the market which also (hopefully!) sounds better.

Alex

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='159211' date='Mar 17 2008, 08:54 PM']I have some ideas about a brand too, with a series of three models - a superlight and simple 15", a 15"+6.5" and a 15" bottom to give you a full 2x15" rig. I think these cabs are viable as commercial items but only with direct sales from the manufacturer - i.e. me! - because otherwise the retail price would be stratospheric once the usual series of mark-ups have been added (due to a combination of fiddly build and expensive components). Would be nice to give a more affordable alternative to the other lightweight cabs on the market which also (hopefully!) sounds better.

Alex[/quote]

Is it a personal choice that you've gone for 15's rather than 10's or 12's? Couldn't you have manipulated your design to get as much out of a pair (or 3) 10's as you could out of a 15?

Please by all means answer in the most basic terms as I work better that way :)

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[quote name='warwickhunt' post='159224' date='Mar 17 2008, 09:13 PM']Is it a personal choice that you've gone for 15's rather than 10's or 12's? Couldn't you have manipulated your design to get as much out of a pair (or 3) 10's as you could out of a 15?[/quote]

Hopefully this will explain - it's a plot of maximum SPL as limited by either twice the RMS thermal rating or the excursion limited power handling, whichever is lower. To keep a level playing field, all speakers are mounted in the same size cab tuned to the same frequency - this leaves a bit of wiggle room for the lesser performers but not a lot.



Red is 1x15", blue is 2x12", orange is 3x10", yellow is 2x10". This is all using Eminence's premium neo speakers, OEM variants of which are used by the likes of Epifani and Bergantino.

Alex

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Hi All,
Here is another contender for the lightest cab.
I have just taken delivery of 2 of Mike Walsh's "Zoot" Cabs.
[attachment=6594:Zoot_Rig.JPG]
They weigh in at 34lbs and 32.25 lbs, (as light as a feather). God knows what they would weigh with Neo's installed. They are about the same size as Aguilar GS 112. Each contains an Eminence Delta 12LAF driver. One has an APT 130 compression horn with an Eminence crossover. Speakon and Jacks are provided on both cabs.
You can easily carry one in each hand, a MarkBass head over 1 shoulder and Bass over the other. One trip from the car to set-up.
Sound wise, IMHO they are better than the Aguilars. More mids and a really warm bottom end. Handles a 5 string easily. Dave Perry subjected them to some awesome slap from his Status when we A/B'd them against his Omni10 and they sounded the business. The Omni wins in the mids department and is slightly more efficient, but the Zoots did seem to have more warmth.
At about 20-25% less than the equivalent Aguilars and lighter, they are worth considering.
So much so I have Mike working on a compact, lightweight 1x15 then I have all situations covered.

Edited by BassBunny

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[quote name='BassBunny' post='160126' date='Mar 19 2008, 10:11 AM']....they weigh in at 34lbs and 32.25 lbs, (as light as a feather). God knows what they would weigh with Neo's installed....[/quote]
Why do you make a light weight cab and then DON'T use Neo speakers??
What is the power rating and the price?

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[quote name='BassBunny' post='160126' date='Mar 19 2008, 10:11 AM']God knows what they would weigh with Neo's installed.[/quote]

6.7 lbs less.

Alex

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='160159' date='Mar 19 2008, 10:59 AM']6.7 lbs less.

Alex[/quote] :huh: You would of course have to allow perhaps 1/2 Lb more for the gaffa tape need to tape them down :)

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[quote name='chris_b' post='160147' date='Mar 19 2008, 10:40 AM']Why do you make a light weight cab and then DON'T use Neo speakers??
What is the power rating and the price?[/quote]
Chris,
That was MY choice. I am not that keen on Neo's, (Nor is Bill F apparently and he doesn't suggest using Neo's in the Omni 10). I find them a bit too mid-biased. In the end I have what I want, which is a lightweight set-up but a degree of warmth to the bottom end. Don't get me wrong, it can chuck out the mids with the best of them, but does not have a mid bias.
Mike's intention was to use Neo's in his design, but after hearing the result of this particular set-up, he may have second thoughts. That said, if you want them, you can have them. I chose not too, just personal preference.

They are rated at 350W RMS per Cab into 8 Ohms, (I think that is a conservative estimate as the drivers are capable of handling 500W RMS).
Price wise, speak to Mike but he assures me these were made for me at a price he could sustain which is £259 and £225 depending on with/without a tweeter.

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[quote name='BassBunny' post='160191' date='Mar 19 2008, 12:14 PM']That was MY choice.[/quote]
Ah, that explains it. Cheers.

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='159428' date='Mar 18 2008, 10:07 AM']Hopefully this will explain - it's a plot of maximum SPL as limited by either twice the RMS thermal rating or the excursion limited power handling, whichever is lower. To keep a level playing field, all speakers are mounted in the same size cab tuned to the same frequency - this leaves a bit of wiggle room for the lesser performers but not a lot.



Red is 1x15", blue is 2x12", orange is 3x10", yellow is 2x10". This is all using Eminence's premium neo speakers, OEM variants of which are used by the likes of Epifani and Bergantino.

Alex[/quote]

Yep got that Alex but they are all in the same box dimensions, I was curious to establish can you get similar SPLs/tone 2x10 if you manipulated the dimensions/porting etc. or does the driver have a greater influence on the sound reproduction?

I'm not trying to pick fault with your design or choice of driver(s) it's just that I have genuinely owned 2x10 equipment that sounded as deep as just about any 15 I've heard (others have commented on this too) and yet you tend to hear the same argument from bassists "want to add more bass? add a 15". My simplistic view is that a driver will only reproduce what the box it is placed in and the signal fed will allow it to produce... what I'm trying to say is that wouldn't/couldn't a well designed 2x10 reproduce equal amounts of bass as a similarly well designed 1x15? Does the actual driver used influence the amount of x/y/z frequency perceived more than the design of the cab?

Keep your reply simple mate :)

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[quote name='BassBunny' post='160126' date='Mar 19 2008, 10:11 AM']Handles a 5 string easily. Dave Perry subjected them to some awesome slap from his Status when we A/B'd them against his Omni10 and they sounded the business. The Omni wins in the mids department and is slightly more efficient, but the Zoots did seem to have more warmth.
At about 20-25% less than the equivalent Aguilars and lighter, they are worth considering.
So much so I have Mike working on a compact, lightweight 1x15 then I have all situations covered.[/quote]

These cabs are [i]without doubt[/i] the lightest cab I have EVER picked up, and I thought the little Aguilar 112's where lightweight.....they must be built using helium filled timber...its simply amazing. Reading a line that says they are 'x pounds weight' means [i]nothing [/i]until you lift them up......as for awesome slap bass....maybe slap head is closer to the mark.... :)

I would genuinely love to know what timber these are made from, cos the drivers are nothing more than standard Eminence Pressed steel frames.

[quote name='BassBunny' post='160191' date='Mar 19 2008, 12:14 PM']I am not that keen on Neo's, (Nor is Bill F apparently and he doesn't suggest using Neo's in the Omni 10).[/quote]

Completely the wrong way round I'm afraid, this is directly from the plans (and its well known on bills site that the 2510 is the best option for the Omni's.....)

[quote]For medium power applications up to 300 watts the recommended driver is the Eminence Basslite S2010 (neo driver)......For higher power applications, up to 500 watts, the recommended driver is the Eminence Deltalite II 2510 (another neo driver)[/quote]

Dave

Edited by david_l_perry

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If you raise the tuning frequency then you can reduce the depth of that scooped out bit but then you shift the steep drop off below the tuning frequency higher. If you make the cab smaller you can increase the power handling in the lows but you also decrease the sensitivity in the lows, so in terms of max SPL they cancel each other out.

You can easily make any of those speakers I've plotted above sound as deep as the 15". The problem is that they can't move enough air to go deep and loud at the same time. At the end of the day, when it comes to low frequency reproduction there is no substitute for volume displacement (Vd). This is cone area (Sd) multiplied by cone excursion (Xmax). Acme's OEM 10" have big Xmax but there still isn't a lightweight non-OEM version available.

So I'm not comparing all 10"s against all 12"s against all 15"s, I'm comparing what is available on the market and has suitable specs for bass guitar in other respects, whilst remaining lightweight. Eminence have spent the money on creating a neo 15" which can really move a lot of air - I gather they're working on a similar neo 12" which will be out next year sometime. If I had £50,000 to throw away I could get them to do me a similar 10" too.

So as tone of the woofer in my design isn't hugely important because it's being crossed over to a midrange speaker and thus the whole "sound of 10"s, 12"s, 15"s" argument goes out of the window, it makes most sense to me to use the woofer that can move the most air for the least weight.

Alex

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Here's Vd for the speakers in question:

3015LF = 846cc

2512 = 255cc

2510 = 147cc

(Acme OEM 10" ~ 280cc)

Double the Vd and you gain 6dB more max low frequency output before farting occurs.

Alex

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[quote name='warwickhunt' post='160314' date='Mar 19 2008, 04:22 PM']I'm not trying to pick fault with your design or choice of driver(s) it's just that I have genuinely owned 2x10 equipment that sounded as deep as just about any 15 I've heard (others have commented on this too)[/quote]

I should also add that most 15" cabs are too small for the response to go deep, thus ending up with a midbass hump that overshadows the true lows.

[quote name='warwickhunt' post='160314' date='Mar 19 2008, 04:22 PM']and yet you tend to hear the same argument from bassists "want to add more bass? add a 15".[/quote]

I've heard that SO many times from fools who were incapable of using their ears and hearing that my beloved Acmes could go lower than any 15" on the market. Maybe the lack of mud confused them?

Alex

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Cheers Alex, thanks for your explanations.

I used to get so frustrated when people would come up and talk about the lovely bottom end I was getting and then proceed to peer around asking where my 15's were... I'd point to the 2x10! Then the usual replies about 10s being good for top end but you need 15s for bass! Why should a well designed multiple 10 loaded cab sound any toppier than a 15? It's simply reproducing the frequencies sent to it; if the bass they refer to is the mud you describe and the lack of transient response then fair enough but I wasn't struggling with 'bottom end'!

I actually had a brand new Hatke XL rig on appro when they were just in this country (many years ago) and I 'accidentally' plugged the wrong output from my GK 800rb head into the wrong cab. It sounded better when I bi-amped and sent the top end to the 15 and the bottom to the 4x10. I took the cabs back the next day because I found the notion of that soooo wrong. Even though it sounded great my ignorance/narrow-mindedness at the time wouldn't allow me to just accept that what it 'sounds like' is the be all and end all, regardless of what it should be doing.

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[quote name='alexclaber' post='160351' date='Mar 19 2008, 05:22 PM']I've heard that SO many times from fools who were incapable of using their ears and hearing that my beloved Acmes could go lower than any 15" on the market. Maybe the lack of mud confused them?[/quote]

They're my beloved Acmes now :)

They are uncanny.


How's your build coming on Alex?

Edited by bigjohn

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[quote name='BassBunny' post='160126' date='Mar 19 2008, 10:11 AM']Hi All,
Here is another contender for the lightest cab.
I have just taken delivery of 2 of Mike Walsh's "Zoot" Cabs.
They weigh in at 34lbs and 32.25 lbs, (as light as a feather).[/quote]
EBS Neo 112 weighs in at 27lbs. I have had shits that weighed more (ok slight exaggeration).

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[quote name='bigjohn' post='160368' date='Mar 19 2008, 05:52 PM']They're my beloved Acmes now :)

They are uncanny.[/quote]

:huh:


[quote name='bigjohn' post='160368' date='Mar 19 2008, 05:52 PM']How's your build coming on Alex?[/quote]

Pretty good - it does take some time to source all the bits but the end is in sight! Am also about to start building a 15" bottom for another bassist and have a pending order for another 15"+6.5" monster. Just need to get the process efficient because right now it's taking quite a lot of time, though much of it thinking and measuring as opposed to actual building.

Alex

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I take my comments about the neo's and Omni 10's back. Having re-read the plans, I got it wrong. That said I have had experience of neo's and I am not that keen. What I have ended up with is a pair of cabs that suit my personal taste.
Dave, sorry Son, I got it wrong. :) But you shouldn't argue with your Dad. And the slap bass was ace. Now, now, no arguments.
Just get the 15 finished and lets have some real fun.

Edited by BassBunny

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This is my new set up I have just bought to replace my old Trace Elliot rig.

The Trace gear was excellent but the weight just bust my balls.

I was recommended the MarkBass gear with the lighter weight being a large factor, I'm still playing around with the sound.

I will be playing AOR classic rock (Foreigner, Toto, Journey) with my Musicman Stingray.

Can anyone out there suggest the best settings for this type of music?

My set up consists of:-

CMD 102P COMBO

151 HF CABINET

[attachment=6694:P3210002.JPG]

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I use an Ashdown Mini 48 (4x8).
Don't know how much it weighs (not a lot).
600 watts.
Produces almost too much bass for me.
Fits nicely into the wife's Nissan Micra too.

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Hi folks,

New to the site and am a guitarist, not a bassist, but am just having a mooch through things and am finding some of the discussion interesting on the site, interesting to look at gear from a different angle.

I build my own cabs and to be honest tend to prefer larger cabs for the quality of sound...

However, I have recently purchased a 12" bass speaker that has twice the rating of your average guitar speaker and comes in at about half the weight...

The difference is the Neodymium magnet...

Whilst I have not yet tried the speaker, the nature of the material apparently from what I have read and from the spec sheets, tends to give some high end emphasis too, which may or may not be desirable for you guys...

However, with a saving of around half the weight to a comparable speaker, the 1.5 - 2KG saving per driver can be significant, particularly with regard to multi driver cabs.... The weight difference is EXTREMELY noticeable...

Hope this adds to the debate...

:)

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[quote name='male33lancs' post='163498' date='Mar 26 2008, 01:16 AM']I have recently purchased a 12" bass speaker that has twice the rating of your average guitar speaker and comes in at about half the weight...

The difference is the Neodymium magnet...[/quote]

You are a [i]little [/i]late to the party with that snippet of information... :)

Neo drivers have been being used by Bass cab manufacturers and DIY bass cab manufacturers for a number of years. They have pretty much become the standard for PA cabs also due to the massive weight savings.

I don't think I would consider anything else these days...

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