mikel Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 Worst mix recently? An outdoor Americana weekend at the Sage a few years ago. The dreaded enormous thudding, sub heavy bass drum that shook your fillings. On that music? And we were right behind the desk. The best? Deacon Blue at the City Hall this year. Perfectly reproduced the sound of their recordings. They were using a more traditional sound system, bins, mids horns etc, no line array, and it sounded fabulous. It was punchy and every instrument was clearly audible. Bass and drums are integral to the DB sound and they were as good as you can get live. I thanked the sound guy after the show as we passed the desk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 That probably made his day @mikel, nice one, of course the artists get the praise when the gig is good but as this thread is showing there’s a lot more to it than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 IME experience (with medium-sized gigs max) I've found that bands who originally date from before the 90s seem to be less likely to suffer from the boomy, overwhelming kick and indistinguishable bass guitar FoH sound, since this was never part of their live or recorded sound back in the day. Certainly at WGW the live sound is almost alway done in a sympathetic way to the line-up of the bands, especially those where the bass guitar is an important part of the sound from a melodic PoV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted June 23, 2022 Author Share Posted June 23, 2022 On 21/06/2022 at 11:33, jimmyb625 said: Edit, here's the link to the Sound on Sound article. Definitely worth a few minutes of your time if you're interested in this sort of thing. https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/bass-place That article should be mandatory reading/study for all sound controllers. Thank you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dankology Posted June 23, 2022 Share Posted June 23, 2022 I saw the Weather Station at Gorilla in Manchester a few months back - was gutted as it had been "upgraded" from a smaller venue and the last time I'd been to Gorilla the sound had been underwhelming. But it was absolutely spectacular. I was making a sneaky audience recording and even that sounds pretty magnificent. I caught the soundman at the end as I had to ask if he was the band's own engineer - nope, just a chap who knew his craft and knew his venue. He looked genuinely touched when I said how good it sounded. There are still some very talented people out there. That said, I rarely go anywhere that holds more than a couple of hundred people so my perspective might be skewed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nail Soup Posted June 24, 2022 Share Posted June 24, 2022 Not sure that many people really like the bass drum thump we are talking of here. Probably a small enough number of people that there would be room for them to just stick their heads directly into the bass drum. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted June 24, 2022 Author Share Posted June 24, 2022 20 hours ago, Dankology said: I saw the Weather Station at Gorilla in Manchester a few months back - was gutted as it had been "upgraded" from a smaller venue and the last time I'd been to Gorilla the sound had been underwhelming. But it was absolutely spectacular. I was making a sneaky audience recording and even that sounds pretty magnificent. I caught the soundman at the end as I had to ask if he was the band's own engineer - nope, just a chap who knew his craft and knew his venue. He looked genuinely touched when I said how good it sounded. There are still some very talented people out there. That said, I rarely go anywhere that holds more than a couple of hundred people so my perspective might be skewed. I agree that there are some very good ones out there and to be fair, my sample is small. However, I paid £50 each for two tickets and would be really upset if one of the musicians was really bad. The irony was that I could see the bassist and he looked as though he was playing some superb stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoulderpet Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 On 20/06/2022 at 09:39, Chienmortbb said: I went to see a famous singer last night, not normally my cup of rock 'n' roll but the better half loves her. The show was uber professional, the singer in question was in superb voice. just a hint of reverb but no vocal processing, superb musicianship except from the bass. It was very loud and so mushy that I could not even tell if he was playing the right notes. I could not see any amps on stage so presumably it was a silent stage. Oh and when the kick drum was used, it and the bass/mush obliterated the vocals. Now I have seen a number of gigs where this happens, but I was beginning to think it was my ears/brain but in the interval several; people were commenting that it was too loud.Yes the overall volume was high but as we all know, clear sound does not seem as loud at distorted sound. When I asked them to describe what they heard it was too boomy or bassy. On some songs there was just piano and acoustic guitar and the sound was superb. So do the Sound guys, mixists etc. all get taught how to over-amplify the kick drum and make a bass sound awful or have the just gone deaf over some years of touring? They had the latest digital desks etc but could not achieve the sound quality of Genesis (Gabriel included) when I saw them in Bracknell Leisure Centre way back in the Early 70s with a PA that was two WEM 5 input powered mixers and a number of 4x12 columns. Of course the ears and brain are very poor at comparing sounds, especially 50 years apart. Of course the artistes gave their all and I am sure the IEM mixes were fine. I am remeinded when I saw a band in a pub about 5 years ago. they had huge (in relation to the pub size) JBL cabs and everything went through the PA. They spent half an hour getting the stage mix right ans about 1 mins checking the FoH sound. That was not too good either. Rant or Ramble over, for now. Oh man, this is a huge hate of mine, have been to more gigs than I can count where the bass was just a big, mushy mess with no discernible pitch to it and then when the amped up bass drum comes in you cant tell what is what, to be fair though I like a lot less low end than a lot of bass player seem to like, I will take clarity over huge low end any day In fact, the only gig I can remember where I thought the bass sounded amazing was when I saw this band in the below video PG Lost live, there bass tone had grit and clarity and didn't sound like mush [Youtube] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 On 21/06/2022 at 01:53, jimmyb625 said: I cut my teeth in live sound with theatre, covering both dramatic productions and musical theatre. Indeed. Where the objective is to reproduce the sound on stage as closely as possible and amplify it. I think the engineers bands bring with them are recording engineers who are trying to reproduce the CD sound. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoulderpet Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 44 minutes ago, TimR said: Indeed. Where the objective is to reproduce the sound on stage as closely as possible and amplify it. I think the engineers bands bring with them are recording engineers who are trying to reproduce the CD sound. But failing miserably to do so Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StickyDBRmf Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 Since I'm an old codger with a bad back, the only shows I go to are theaters. We have a few here in NJ, one of my favorites is The Count Basie Theater in Red Bank. 1543 seats, no site view problems, no bad seats. The Count was from Red Bank, so a fitting tribute. !!! I just popped their website and it's been renamed the Meridian Health Center Theater. Oh, THAT sounds nice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velarian Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 24 minutes ago, StickyDBRmf said: I just popped their website and it's been renamed the Meridian Health Center Theater. Oh, THAT sounds nice... They clearly have no style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike257 Posted June 28, 2022 Share Posted June 28, 2022 2 hours ago, TimR said: I think the engineers bands bring with them are recording engineers who are trying to reproduce the CD sound. It's not often the case that recording engineers are involved in the live production as it's a very different skillset, although the handful I can think of that I work with who split their time fairly evenly between studio and live work are actually some of the best live mix engineers I know. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted June 28, 2022 Author Share Posted June 28, 2022 5 hours ago, TimR said: engineers Sound minister, sound person sound man sound woman but not Engineer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 54 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said: Sound minister, sound person sound man sound woman but not Engineer. Semantics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikel Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 12 hours ago, Dad3353 said: Semantics. "Semantics"? No, but definitely not engineers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted June 29, 2022 Author Share Posted June 29, 2022 12 hours ago, Dad3353 said: Semantics. Maybe but when tape came in the BBC called the operators sound recordists to distinguish them form the recorder itself. Perhaps mixist would fit but engineer would not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) Wikipedia : Audio engineer... ... and ... It's just English, that's all. There's no implied slur on any other definitions or qualifications. Edited June 29, 2022 by Dad3353 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 I'm pretty sure they're engineers. They use skills and equipment to solve problems. Pretty much what an engineer does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nail Soup Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Dad3353 said: Wikipedia : Audio engineer... ... and ... It's just English, that's all. There's no implied slur on any other definitions or qualifications. Or according to that very reliable source, Urban Dictionary: Sound engineer Somebody who wrongfully uses the title "sound engineer" for their job when they really belong to a group called "sound technicians". Their job is to facilitate the production of sound during recordings and events using technology that an actual engineer has designed. "So what do you do you for a living?" "I'm a sound engineer" "Ah so you must be quite good with electronics then" "No, I just sit in a recording studio and press buttons" "Ah right, I think you mean you are a sound technician" by Frankxk April 21, 2021 Edited June 29, 2022 by Nail Soup 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 It's interesting isn't it about how people can get the sound so wrong. Especially in a world where you can get degrees in music technology as opposed to the world I started in where the blind led the blind. The first job of setting up a PA was to build the speakers! The thing is that whilst there is science or engineering and it is certainly useful to know your theory there is also skill and care involved. A couple of years ago in Hyde Park I heard the Killers, Elbow and Tears for Fears all using the same PA, Elbow sounded great, Tears for Fears out of this world and the Killers awful. Killed (sic) by the kick, distortion from the subs being overdriven, bass mud and the guitarist barely audible. This went on for the whole of the gig with no-one apparently noticing at the desk which must have had half a dozen people there. Meanwhile on a side stage a young band came on, no sound check. The young engineer (sorry John) in his very early 20's started with the overblown kick and one note bass but tamed it about 60secs into the first song. 5 mins later the sound was just glorious and he stopped twiddling and sat back to let the band do their thing pretty much. All this achieved with easing the sliders into position so that no-one would have noticed the gradual changes as he made them. He can't have been more than 23 but it was a total joy to watch/hear. I'm sure age/experience helps as does learning about sound systematically but you can't teach a good set of ears and an understanding of music, or a willingness to listen and an understanding of how musicians work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 Reminds me of a gig I did a few years back, the kick drum for the band before us was a big pillowy reverberating mess so I said to the sound man that our kick drum sound was sharp & snappy so could he make sure this came across. His reply was that “he knew the room”. My reply was “well if you do why are you ruining that bands gig then”. I thought it was a valid question. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikel Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 1 hour ago, Phil Starr said: It's interesting isn't it about how people can get the sound so wrong. Especially in a world where you can get degrees in music technology as opposed to the world I started in where the blind led the blind. The first job of setting up a PA was to build the speakers! The thing is that whilst there is science or engineering and it is certainly useful to know your theory there is also skill and care involved. A couple of years ago in Hyde Park I heard the Killers, Elbow and Tears for Fears all using the same PA, Elbow sounded great, Tears for Fears out of this world and the Killers awful. Killed (sic) by the kick, distortion from the subs being overdriven, bass mud and the guitarist barely audible. This went on for the whole of the gig with no-one apparently noticing at the desk which must have had half a dozen people there. Meanwhile on a side stage a young band came on, no sound check. The young engineer (sorry John) in his very early 20's started with the overblown kick and one note bass but tamed it about 60secs into the first song. 5 mins later the sound was just glorious and he stopped twiddling and sat back to let the band do their thing pretty much. All this achieved with easing the sliders into position so that no-one would have noticed the gradual changes as he made them. He can't have been more than 23 but it was a total joy to watch/hear. I'm sure age/experience helps as does learning about sound systematically but you can't teach a good set of ears and an understanding of music, or a willingness to listen and an understanding of how musicians work. He was probably using the old adage of,cut dont boost, tone controls if the sound is way off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddster Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 On 21/06/2022 at 02:53, jimmyb625 said: I think there are a number of problems when it comes to live sound, which include: • Quality of engineers/operators • Familiarity with the music • Room construction • Subjective opinions on what "sounds right" Yes, all of these, but also included is what the sound guy is being sent by the musicians. You can't make a bunch of cardboard boxes and dustbin lids sound like John Bonham. All too often musicians just don't know how to get their gear sounding good. Plus the rest of what you said is correct. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddster Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 With my sound engineer head on, it royalty pisses me off at gigs when the sound guys think the be all and end all is how good /loud the drums are. It happens all too often. There was definitely a thing before drum machines that the mark of a good engineer was how good the drum sound was (as its the hardest instrument to get right), but that doesn't excuse not being able to place it the mix correctly. Glastonbury was the same. Drums and vocals. Its like "we need to make it sound exciting, so lets turn up the drums". No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.