How do you go to FoH from a valve amp with no DI?

[Clarky]

Looking at old valve amps, I noticed that 'traditional' 60/70s based ones like Matamp have no DI out. Obviously you could mic the cab but is there a way (pedal, I assume, between amp and cab) to create a DI out for front of house?

 

Not that I have a valve amp but am just pondering ... I have been after a Handbox WB-100 but can't track one down and its unclear when they will begin manufacturing them again.

 

 

[NAS Bass]

DI box between head and cab or a DI box from the 'Line Out' if the head has one.

 

You may have a bit of a fight on with some stick in the mud FOH guys who will just want to put a DI box between your bass and the amps input.

[Woodinblack]

16 minutes ago, Clarky said:

Not that I have a valve amp but am just pondering ... I have been after a Handbox WB-100 but can't track one down and its unclear when they will begin manufacturing them again.

 

If you do track it down it does have a DI output, as do most modern valve amps.

[Happy Jack]

FX Loop?

[Clarky]

9 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

FX Loop?

You know where I am going with this Jack! Owner of relatively lightweight Matamp GT100 .... in case I  cannot get the Handbox valve beastie!

[Stofferson]

https://ashdownmusic.com/products/phone-box-adapter-di-box

 

Or similar

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

A mic is better anyway, as it captures the same thing that you hear. But all is for naught if the guy behind the console doesn't know what he's doing. IME, which includes just about every top touring act of the last 20 years. most don't.

[Gwilym]

25 minutes ago, Stofferson said:

https://ashdownmusic.com/products/phone-box-adapter-di-box

 

Or similar

From the blurb on the web site:

"designed for use with most types of solid state amplifiers"

 

[la bam]

If you're lugging a big valve head, it's best paired with a big cab. If your lugging a big cab, it's best micd up, otherwise you're more than likely just getting the pre amp valves, not output valves sound when di ing from the head.

 

If your gonna just di the head, imo you might as well just get a di pedal or rack - it's the same thing for foh.

Edited June 18, 2022 by la bam

[BassmanPaul]

Stick a good microphone in front of the cabinet. You want to capture what the cabinet is adding to your sound. Plus you want to hear what the output tubes are bringing to the gig.

[Downunderwonder]

There is a Countryman DI that will take a feed off the speaker.

 

If you want to mic you need your own mic and preferably a cab mount. You will get pushback from many a stage hand who is only interested in plugging your bass into his DI and moving onto the next job. You have to short cut that by telling him to 'have a listen to this' and shoving your mic leed in his face when gets to you.

[Piers_Williamson]

I have a fantastic Noble valve pre-amp which has an equally fantastic valve DI

 

[Bunion]

About £80 from most stores 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Bunion

[BassmanPaul]

Thing is that why simulate when you have the real thing on stage. A good microphone puts out everything you need in real life. you have spent a deal of money on your sound system to get it to sound as you want it to..  Why cut that out of your stage show?

 

 

[Downunderwonder]

2 minutes ago, BassmanPaul said:

Thing is that why simulate when you have the real thing on stage. A good microphone puts out everything you need in real life. you have spent a deal of money on your sound system to get it to sound as you want it to..  Why cut that out of your stage show?

 

 

Because a lot of sound guys can't think outside their own little bass box and get uppity about being asked for a little accommodation.

[Bankai]

2 hours ago, Bunion said:

About £80 from most stores 

I’ve got one and they’re good, but can’t go too high on the wattage front. Radial make a similar unit that can handle 300W if you need more.

[Downunderwonder]

Countryman 85 will take 300V up it. Just connect it parallel with your speaker cab.

[paul_5]

Hughes and Kettner Red Box was developed for exactly this situation.

[Jack]

9 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Countryman 85 will take 300V up it. Just connect it parallel with your speaker cab.

Yes but in that application they do come across as being very bright. Most (stereotype alert) people using big valve amps are using coloured cabs of the 8x10 or similar ilk, very unlikely to have tweeters etc. The amps are set up to 'combat' this so they sound good together, as a package. Taking a feed from just the amp can sound less than good in this case. Usually you'll want some sort of speaker sim, ir, or just drastic eq on the board to approximate the sound you get on stage from the cab. 

[Bankai]

1 minute ago, Jack said:

Yes but in that application they do come across as being very bright. Most (stereotype alert) people using big valve amps are using coloured cabs of the 8x10 or similar ilk, very unlikely to have tweeters etc. The amps are set up to 'combat' this so they sound good together, as a package. Taking a feed from just the amp can sound less than good in this case. Usually you'll want some sort of speaker sim, ir, or just drastic eq on the board to approximate the sound you get on stage from the cab. 

The Radial option has a built in cab-sim for this reason. Modelled off of an Ampeg B15

[Clarky]

Thanks all, if I did go ahead with this route (and I would still prefer to track down a Handbox WB-100, which renders the question obsolete), my cab is a Barefaced Supertwin (2x12", relatively uncoloured)

[Jack]

2 minutes ago, Clarky said:

Thanks all, if I did go ahead with this route (and I would still prefer to track down a Handbox WB-100, which renders the question obsolete), my cab is a Barefaced Supertwin (2x12", relatively uncoloured)

Then you might really enjoy the 'di after the head' route, at least more than most. Despite the fact that I've said it wouldn't be my first choice for this application, my countryman is one is the best bits of kit I've ever used. Can recommend. 

[bassist_lewis]

The Rupert Neve RNDI will take an out directly from an amp, you just flick the switch to -45dB.

[Bankai]

1 hour ago, bassist_lewis said:

The Rupert Neve RNDI will take an out directly from an amp, you just flick the switch to -45dB.

And that is an excellent DI too.

 

Dare I say an expensive one though.

[BigRedX]

First off what output sockets are there on the back of the amp? Maybe post a photograph. That will narrow down the options.

 

In the meantime:

 

It's all very well suggesting that the cab is mic'd up but most of the time unless you are playing large stages, trying to keep the mic'd feed under control while still accurately capturing the sound of the cab but very little else, will cause more problems than it is worth for the overall band mix. Also most typical cabs that are paired with big valve heads are multi-speaker types. The sound of these cabs is the sound of all the drivers working together from at least several feet away. This is not a sound you can capture on stage. If you do mic up one of these cabs it will be a single mic close to one of the speakers. So before you decide the try this route spend some time in a space where you can turn the amp up to gig volume and have a good listen to each of the speakers in turn. Up close, do any of them on their own get close to the sound you hear when you step back and listen to the whole cab? Probably not. However, if you are lucky one of them might be in the ballpark of the sound you want, so make a note of which one it is and make sure that is the one you mic up. Mark it on the front of the cab if necessary. If the cab is front-ported it will ideally be the driver furthest from the port. You do not want to be mic'ing up a speaker that is close to a port opening. It will only be worth exploring this route if you always use your own cab at gigs.

 

I'm always wary about putting anything (other than a good quality heavy duty speaker lead) between the amp and speaker on a bass amp especially one with a valve power amp. The various devices being mentioned in this thread are almost always aimed at guitarists who don't use amps rated over 100W and whose sonic needs are considerably lower than the bass guitar. I would only use one of these if you can get a written guarantee from the manufacturer in question that it is safe to use with bass guitar and your particular amp and speaker combination running for a whole gig at maximum volume. If one of these devices decides to die mid-gig it will be the equivalent of running your amp into an open or short circuit (depending on how it dies). Will your amp be happy with this? Will you, if your amp dies as well?

 

TBH the best you can hope for is that amp has a line out socket on it. Couple this with the most neutral sounding DI box you can afford and use that to give the PA a bass guitar feed. That way at least you'll get the sound of the pre-amp valves working. Otherwise you might as well just get a SansAmp. Sick it in front of the amp and take the PA feed from that.